My advice to men who think they are women. If you think that, there are a few things that you need to understand. First of all is that you are still a man because you can't change your biological sex. It's okay to dress any way you wish and to adopt any superficial, stereotypical attributes of women that you desire. Live your life. No one should care, I certainly don't. However, because women are entitled to be treated fairly and to enjoy privacy from men there are certain things that are prohibited to you and me because we are men. You can't compete against women in most sports because it would be unfair. You can't go into women's private places like restrooms and locker rooms because that would make them feel unsafe. Finally, if you are a criminal you certainly can't be imprisoned with women.
Exactly, trans women are welcome in men's private spaces and I would stand up for their right to be treated with civility and respect in those spaces. Their are many kinds of men and I have no problem with diverse presentation.
There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
Exactly this. This issue would never have reached this level of toxicity if some basic, common sense efforts were made to deal with the fetishists and the predators.
Sadly, after years of abuse and attacks, there are a lot of people who have lost all interest in differentiating. And I can’t blame them.
Trans activism has done immeasurable damage to the trans community and even the LGB community as a whole.
It’s not who passes for a woman… it’s not that some restrooms have men and women in. In those particular restrooms the women understand the deal. The problem is men in women’s restrooms as a norm. Because if that is legalised across the board, then it’s an exponential problem… because some men will take advantage of those rules, as some men have done in women’s prisons, to the point of rape and impregnating a woman.
If I’m walking behind a woman at night, I make a point of crossing the road because I know there is a thought in her head, a thought that I wouldn’t have, if the situation was reversed and she was walking behind me.
Namely, that she might be at risk of harm.
Some people answer that with ‘well, we can all be at risk of harm at some point’ to which I say, imagine hearing a noise on the stairs as you’re trying to sleep…. It’s dark…. You get up cautiously and go look but as your hand reaches the handle of the door,
the door bursts open and a figure pushes you to the ground.
You’re told to be quiet.
He has a knife. Someone else is rifling through the drawers.
They leave. It could have been worse.
Now, go to bed the next night.
Tell me you’re gonna sleep like a baby.
Tonight, it just might be worse.
And on. And on.
You’ve entered the world of what might happen. And you’re on your guard in a way you weren’t the night before it happened.
That is a woman’s world.
Always.
This shit is ok when it’s over there, way over there… not in our jurisdiction…. But we always see a little bit more when we live it a little.
In real gender dysphoria that has included medical transition, it is unlikely that women would be able to tell the difference. Unless we are going to do XX vs XY tests and give everyone an armband to identify their gender, it is just a physical appearance issue.
No, MEN can't tell the difference. Women can tell the difference every single time. Recognising the difference between male and female is an evolutionary survival trait women have relied on for all of time. Even if there's a double take, that double take happens for a reason: because on the deepest level, women know when they are in the presence of a male, regardless the modifications.
Men who are pretending to be women rarely pass as such. Women who pretend to be men, and who have taken enough testosterone, can generally pass more easily. The entire reason why the gender ideologues began experimenting on children is that they believe the males would "get better outcomes" if they don't go through normal male puberty. "Better outcomes" translates as "They would pass better as women." This isn't just my opinion, it is a fact that gender medical professionals are very open about.
Another reality that the gender ideologues are not open about is that men act like men after they have transitioned, they don't act like women. A lot of them are narcissistic and they don't change their entitled, self-centered, pushy personalities after they transition, no matter what body parts they hack off or how much estrogen they use.
There is no link between how 'true' someone's gender dysphoria is and how well they pass. And no woman knows what's going on in the head of the gender dysphoric man when he walks into the women's toilets. And the vast majority of 'trans women' today still have their male genitals intact.
women cannot tell the difference between a genuine transwoman (man) and a pervert, fetishist or chancer just by looking at them and for this reason, none of them should be able to come into our private spaces. They say they can't use the men's room because they fear being attacked but that's exactly how we women feel every time a male bodied person enters our spaces.
So awesome that you guys are finally reaching that conclusion. My other half still doesn’t get it. I too started out sanguine towards transppl in the wrong loo, but the complete failure to set any boundaries at all is worrying to me. I also agree with Frank that it cuts both ways: if single sex spaces are important for women then there must be at least some single sex spaces that are reserved for men as well.
Well the situation is the same reversed. Any XX person that transitions medically to a male identity would be able to use the men's restroom.
I think the more recent never-ending general demonstrated entitlement is that women have no boundaries, refuse to have anyone else set any boundaries for them, but then also behave as Karens that can tell everyone else how they must live their lives.
The situation is not the same reversed you colossal buffoon.
Women, even on post pubertal T, do not gain the same physical advantage as males who go through puberty do.
JFC Frank.
“My wife agrees with me”
You’re probably such a nightmare when she doesn’t that she just strokes your ego.
Listen to JW
Read Kathleen Stock, Emma Hilton, and myriad others who’ve put in the work that you so breezily assume you’ve worked out all by your cognitively unimpressive lonesome.
Stop smelling your farts, Frank, you’re delusional from methane poisoning.
Alright man, that’s enough. Disagreement is welcome here, abuse is not.
Frank and others have tried several times to be reasonable and respectful. If you can’t express yourself more productively than screeching at people I’m going to ban you.
It's men's history-long 'redefining' of female boundaries with violence and force that is the point here. Go elsewhere for your bizarre little opportunistic wobble about 'Karens.' Jesus.
Whether a man has dysphoria or schizophrenia is irrelevant to women and girls needing their own single-sex spaces. Women and girls are not "support animals" for mentally ill males.
It seems to me that this debate (and several of the other debates over gendered spaces) are all downstream of a major issue: that women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing. Unfortunately, it's also a thorny one. But a woman in the situation of "unknown person in fenced space" isn't doing gender studies; she's just had her IFF tripped, and this mysterious individual who apparently does NOT respect boundaries wants to talk gender politics?
And bringing in FtMs just complicates things further. How comfortable are cis women sharing a restroom with them?
I do think society is becoming more gender-neutral, which will help.
"women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing."
Yes, this is clearly the underlying issue, but I don't see it going away any time soon. Something like 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. 92% of it against women. Never mind general creepiness and inappropriate, stalker-ish behaviour.
Women's spaces are an imperfect solution to this problem. But they are a solution. Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.
“Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.”
Yeah, maybe it’ll be moot to *you*.
Likely not for any real world females who are actually familiar with the realities of male violence and living with the oppressive and omnipresent male gaze.
Seriously dude, get over yourself. And listen.
I’d be happy to point you toward many women who will take the time to make sure that you understand fully.
And in the meantime, please stop speaking for such women. You seem to have a good mind and the right motivation — don’t let yourself be part of the problem just because you’re too proud to admit a fault or failure.
I was about to spring to your defence Steve and say I didn’t notice any pontificating either and thought it was a brilliant article . Cheeky title though:D I thought you were on the other side for a moment. Actually just two days ago, I was coming out of a cubicle and noticed a man at the basins and he immediately said I’m so sorry. Is it okay if I just wash my hands quickly? The gents are away on the other side of the building“(which was true) it was no issue at all
Just out of curiosity, what are the stats on trans women’s violence against women? I’ve been at the receiving end of male sexual violence multiple times. Weirdly enough none of them wore dresses.
So, I doubt that very much/ other sources are giving me different info. But let’s accept it. Let’s say it’s 100% correct. The current situation is still not only not protecting women in women’s bathrooms - it’s actually endangering us far more.
Let me lay it out and you tell me what you think.
So our premise is - trans women are still somehow ‘men on the inside’, therefore dangerous to cis women. But we agree they are a very small part of the population. So if you asked an average woman would she be more comfortable in the same bathroom with a trans woman or with a cis man, can we agree it would probably be the cis man that causes more stress? As, in line with our previous exchange, most of us who have had harrowing experiences have had them with regular men, not trans women.
And here you will say ‘well of course!! All men should DEFINITELY stay out of women’s spaces, that’s the whole point of my article, didn’t you read it?
And I did. Except the issue we come to now is that trans men also exist. And I don’t know if you’re following that side of things - I feel like trans men are forever in the shadows somehow, no one ever brings them up in debates - but with how hormone therapy and such has developed, trans men look 100% like men. I’m talking beard, pecs, hurly burly man looks.
And those 100% male presenting people are now SUPPOSED to be in my bathroom. Because they were born female, right? And so far so good, I have nothing against either group of trans people in my bathroom.
But I wonder if you are seeing my issue already? If previously we said ‘well, any man can PRETEND to be a woman in order to gain access to women’s spaces’ - what we have done now is literally assured that they don’t even have to pretend. Any random dude without even combing his hair can now rock up to the women’s room and say ‘oh yeah I know I look like this, but I was born with a vagina.’
And, like….. am I gonna check?? Are you gonna check? Are we installing genital screening in bathrooms and are any of us comfortable undergoing that?? So effectively, this change literally throws the doors of women’s bathrooms open to any single man casual enough to say ‘oh yeah I was born female’.
Do you genuinely think that’s better and safer for us? Before at least they had to take hormones and pick out a dress.
This will never happen because men are by definition a threat and the ones that aren’t “that bad” make all sorts of excuses for the ones that are. Since there is no way to tell them apart, it’s not practical to give any man the benefit of the doubt. This especially applies to men who want to cross-dress as a way to express their fetish. They specifically don’t belong around women.
This is how male nature is and only people who lie and deny the reality of male stupidity and violence (that’s many people, especially men) would make excuses for the “trans” lie.
Women only spaces will always be needed to assist women to lead full lives in the public sphere. At work, school/ university, in public shopping centres. Women need to be in these places and need to be able to attend void, defecate, change menstrual products without males present. Pregnant women, women with any kind of disability, mothers with small children - all need the safety of women only facilities even more. Men, even ones who dress like women, in women's spaces will drive the most vulnerable women out of public life. This is deeply unjust. And the women who blithely agree that men who think they are meant to be women are fine in women's facilities - are not thinking of the cancer patient who is struggling with a new stoma. Or the women who have been abused before. Or whose religion forbids them being near unknown men. Women are a diverse group. And many have every reason to be fearful of strange men. And any man who feels he 'should' use the women's toilets as a matter of principle is strange indeed.
I think it would be fair to state that women's advocacy has played an enormous role in managing or mitigating the impact men's violence from the early development of women's shelters, to raising awareness, to working towards a justice system that is beginning to take it seriously and so on and so on. I think feminism has been very active in this way. But solving the root problem of male violence towards women and children is not a something that women should be asked to do and I think asking women to actively probe men to find out if they are violent is a bit like suggesting a game of Russian roulette.
Women 'feel' like men are a threat to them? Dear God. Read the Dominic Pelicot case as a starting point. Read stats on voyeurism in women's toilets, the images uploaded to the net, as a growing category of porn. Don't top there. Men ARE a threat to women. Not all men but god knows enough that no woman gets to feel safe.
The vast majority of men are honorable, but there’s no way to read intentions at first glance. The old line about “all men are rapists” is dead wrong, but given the size differential, women just have to be careful, unfortunately.
Women are fine sharing bathrooms with FtM. They are still women. Lesbians - still women. But MtF make me want to carry knives everywhere i go. And i have taught my girls the right places to slash and stab for quick bleed out (yes, we butcher). If they are in that position, getting them mad only makes it more dangerous. Better is arterial blood and possible death.
As the “trans” cult loses support, as detransitioners get more publicity, it is becoming more openly violent snd murderous. They shouldn’t be allowed on planes.
By the way, the “real ones” have Gender Identity Disorder, not “gender dysphoria.” The former appears around age 4-6 and is lifelong; the latter appears shortly after getting on social media and most outgrow it in a few years.
But by then many have destroyed their health with hormones and their bodies with surgery. GD has no diagnostic criteria past self-declaration and is closely linked with other psychiatric disorders.
It's all culture bound and what we know is gleaned through different eras and with the gatekeeping of the time. Traditional transexuals have always been motivated to confirm the born in the wrong body narrative but doesn't mean we have any evidence it's true.
Hi Steve! This is one of the first essays of yours I’ve read in at least a year after dropping off the face of the internet. It’s been a very interesting and disturbing one. I left twitter, TikTok, etc. a long time ago so I miss a lot of these happenings. As someone who’s quite present in my local queer and trans communities, I was absolutely horrified reading the many posts and articles you linked. It definitely confirmed my decision to stay off those circles of the internet, but also gave me a lot of insight into the fear of and opposition to trans people. The behavior you outlined in this article is genuinely abhorrent and also a very accurate representation of the fears I hear cis people expressing. Like exactly. And it was very interesting because this kind of stuff would be so quickly condemned in my personal social circles, so I never understood where all these fears were coming from. I’d like to think that the majority of real trans communities are the same and that the crazies flock to X, but I can’t be sure. I have a question though! At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise? I’m curious!
"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrified reaction from the woman in the bathroom because they look like women. Right now, and for many years, there have been trans women using female spaces without causing any problems.
The problem is, the question of whether one passes is VERY subjective. Especially in today's insane climate. There's a whole echo chamber on social media built around convincing people who very clearly don't pass at all that they're Gal Gadot. Plus, there's the whole "trans women don't owe you femininity" wing of trans activism that claims that anybody, even a bearded rugby player with hairy shovels for hands becomes a woman the instant they say they identify as one.
But yeah, the more I think about it, maybe the problem is the whole concept of "passing."
Because the question isn't what you can fool people into believing, the question is what is actually true. Trans women are men who wish to be perceived as women. That's absolutely fine. 95% of the time the way you're perceived is all that really matters. But I think it's a huge mistake to think it's cruel or "transphobic" if there are times when they have to defer to their biology.
So my preferred solution, which some public spaces are already adopting, is to make men's toilets gender-neutral spaces where it's normal to see all "genders" using them, and leave female spaces for females.
Who knows, in a few generations, maybe this would lead to a world where it becomes so normal to see male- and female-presenting people in a single restroom that the concept of gendered spaces fades away on its own. But the testing ground for that should be male spaces, where there is no increased risk caused by mixing. Not female spaces.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
C'mon Steve, if he fools you, that's not his problem? You got 90% of the way but didn't want to commit to your own views?
Think of Boy's Don't Cry - while the men are the true evil here, it's clear to me the protagonist doesn't get meaningful consent from her partner. Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?
I get that someone can adopt a gender identity of the opposite sex and live without much issue, but it wouldn't be acceptable to anyone's standards to withhold this info to a potential intimate partner, for example. This means passing people can probably get by just fine but the key thing is they do actually need to accept who they are, because that is just reality. You actually can't be something you're not.
It is not whether he fools someone (btw misgendering some of the activists would say). It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man. I have met “feminine” trans, none convince and the most convincing only gets away with for a couple of minutes at best in close proximity. Distance is hardly a factor in justifying this nonsense. Live their lives and let women live theirs.
This makes perfect sense. While I do understand that this may create fear among trans men of violence in male spaces, why should women be the ones to accommodate what trans men think they need?
But the follow on would be what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?
“ what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?”
Just to be clear, I presume you’re meaning trans identifying man here? Not what most people mean when they say trans man?
If so, I’d be a little surprised I guess, but no big deal. Even if this person passed fully as female, I’d be maybe minimally uncomfortable, but that discomfort wouldn’t come with any fear that they’d hurt me or do anything inappropriate.
It’s funny, one of the Reddit posts I saw while researching this was a trans woman raging because his university had designated the men’s as the “inclusive” “all-gender” bathroom and had left the women’s for women.
He had an option, everything was fine, but he could no longer justify invading the women’s.
How on earth could anyone judge how someone passes? By a national passing certification board? Including what—hands, feet, voice, stupid ego? Who makes these decisions?
How many males actually pass? Basically none. Men are delusional, and they think they all pass when clearly they don’t.
There is no way to do this. They’re not “trans” women. They’re men. If they’re told no from the beginning, the problem isn’t created. Society cannot function like this, and women are more important than males and their delusions and porn addictions.
And exactly how many pass? Almost none. But the clue is in the word, pass. If they also pass as under 18, would they get into minor’s spaces? If you PASS, then you are NOT. Live your life as you please but without forcing others to live their lives according to your self perception.
I don’t know. Nor do you. Largely because trans women who pass, by definition, aren’t read as trans women.
Yes, very obviously trans women are not women. But if a trans woman passes as a woman, then there are certain situations where them living as they please is based on YOUR perception.
There’s a good chance, for example that you’ve passed a trans woman on the street, or even shared a bathroom with one, and felt zero discomfort because you perceived them as a woman. So, and this is a serious question, what do you suggest doing with this person?
I’ve been unequivocal in my support for women’s spaces. And, of course, spaces like prisons and rape shelters and sports are different and should be managed based on sex regardless of presentation. But total absolutism seems silly as well as obviously unenforceable.
I feel no discomfort in meeting or dealing with trans. My non recognition of trans identified males as women is not based on my discomfort levels, as it doesn’t bother me. The passables I have met, are only passable at a distance, close contact generally tells me who is who and what is what. At least we agree on the issue of prisons which has always been my main area of concern on the issue, one I had written about prior to setting up substack and possibly won’t return to, anytime soon.
I was about to say the same. I know it's an ancient word that has been used in scientific terms for a very long time but I'm simply a woman. My sexual preference is my own business.
Hi! I am actually a fellow (almost) woman and while I understand where you’re coming from, cis isn’t a derogatory word nor a prefix. It’s just an adjective people use for clarity when trans people are involved in the discussion. It comes from the Latin preposition meaning “on this side of” as opposed to trans which is “the other side of”. The word is not meant to degrade your womanhood any more than adjectives like “white” or “brunette” would. Although I apologize if it’s been used that way towards you in the past. People can be shitty.
It isn't for YOU to decide what WE consider to be derogatory. Arguably, "tr**ny" and "ni***r" aren't derogatory to some, but I'd like to see you call Stephen Halliday the former, or shout out the latter in the middle of Brixton.
So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a permanent, biological trait. Things like chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, male vs female etc are part of sex.
Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex. This does not mean that gender is not real, that argument is silly and confusing imo. Gender is a complex series of learned behaviors and mannerisms that we replicate over generations. People sometimes object to this saying that it boils gender down to stereotypes, but that’s kind of what we’re addressing when we say gender isn’t binary. One does not have to conform to all gendered behaviors to be a woman, man, etc. Some people feel the need to create additional labels across that spectrum, but that’s not mandatory.
In summary of this point, people are arguing that gender identity determines gender. Not that it determines sex. And if they are arguing it determines sex they’re being silly and are factually incorrect.
Second, you gave an example of “gender ideology”, that a young boy will play with dolls and wear dresses and people will say he is really a girl. Now, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. So I will not deny that someone out there believes something like that, nor that you’ve witnessed someone say something similar.
However, it’s important to note that (and this is coming from someone who knows dozens of real life trans people and even more people who support them) almost nobody actually believes that. Like I have really, truly, never met a single person, trans or otherwise, who would look at a boy playing with dolls and say he is a girl. Again not denying that you’ve seen it. But the internet amplifies rage inducing opinions and it’s important to keep that in mind.
Regarding your point about stereotypes, I agree they are harmful. But when people say “cis” to refer to people, we’ll use women as an example, they are not labeling that woman as a “stereotypical girly girl” and saying that is what defines her womanhood. They are saying that the woman was born as a female and is comfortable with the gender that comes as the default for it in our society. I know plenty of cis women who are not particularly feminine.
Cis = someone who identifies with their gender assigned at birth. This is most people, so the adjective cis is rarely needed unless we’re discussing trans people, in which case it’s a helpful distinction.
So I was explaining the linguistic origin of the term. It’s a Latin preposition that means “this side of”, as I said. Some other examples of English prepositions: Around, across, within, between, beyond, despite, etc.
These words don’t mean anything on their own and cis is especially confusing since it’s Latin.
To answer your question directly. Cis can mean on this side of anything. When referring to people who are not trans, the original term is actually “cisgender”. It was later shortened to cis in certain contexts for convenience.
The terms cis and trans can also be found in chemistry and cellular biology. We have record of them being used to describe gender and or sexuality dating back to over a century ago.
Also, after looking back at my comment, I don’t specifically refer to women at all in it. So I’m unsure what term you would have preferred I use there. Non-trans-people? That’s what cis means.
I hate that the argument has given toilets and women’s shelters equal footing. I don’t give a rats ass which toilet anyone uses. But I DO feel very strongly about preserving single sex spaces in medical settings, shelters, and where women are processing trauma.
Saying things like this does not make you persuasive. It just makes you appear ignorant of the facts.
It is not, generally speaking, illegal for a man to enter a female space. In fact, given the current ridiculous state of the law, it could be considered discriminatory to prevent a man from entering a female space. We've seen this play out several times with women being ignored or even penalised when they object to men in gym changing rooms and public bathrooms.
It seems you think it's valiant to be absolutist and to brook no nuance, but this approach causes more problems than it solves. We obviously agree on the importance and value of female-only spaces. But you're not going to solve this problem by yelling at it or high-horsing everyone who acknowledges a little more nuance than you do.
I suspect that is not the case. I do have a male friend who likes to hear women peeing but I'm absolutely certain he doesn't visit women's toilets to do so.
You absolutely certain about that libby ? I wouldn’t be so certain, we have precisely no idea what others we claim to be friends do in their private life and knowing he has that pervy interest it’s potentially not just where he leaves it lol !!
That in no way changes the fact that there are AGP males who do enter female spaces for more than just peeing (themselves).
Do you truly believe that being possessed of a “female gender identity” magically comes with a guarantee that an individual’s male pattern violence, physical advantage over women, and even paraphilic behaviours are eliminated?
And he’s still your friend with that creepy interest and he thinks it’s okay to talk about it and expect people to be alright with him finding listening to women pee as interesting or a turn on?! Haha choose your mates more wisely
I’m not here to persuade you. I’m here to shame you.
If you had an ounce of intellectual integrity, or curiosity, or anything but male pattern hubris (like I often have), you’d consider the possibility that the conclusion you’ve reached is flawed.
Read the fucking philosopher’s post.
Engage with her instead of angry old me.
But seriously, open yourself up to the possibility that perhaps she might have considered the nuances even more deeply than you have, and might bring you some insights that you seem lacking from your male pov.
Get. Over. Yourself.
You’ll end up a better man as a result, and a better ally.
Read the article and many of the responses. Impressed by the generally thoughtful and reasonable things people say. Because I have been unsure what to think on occasions I have been called a terf and roundly abused if I didn’t sound quite 'on message', whatever that happened to be. Thanks for this.
My advice to men who think they are women. If you think that, there are a few things that you need to understand. First of all is that you are still a man because you can't change your biological sex. It's okay to dress any way you wish and to adopt any superficial, stereotypical attributes of women that you desire. Live your life. No one should care, I certainly don't. However, because women are entitled to be treated fairly and to enjoy privacy from men there are certain things that are prohibited to you and me because we are men. You can't compete against women in most sports because it would be unfair. You can't go into women's private places like restrooms and locker rooms because that would make them feel unsafe. Finally, if you are a criminal you certainly can't be imprisoned with women.
Glau: The way you deal with that is law enforcement just like any other assault not by forcing people to believe stupid shit like men can become women.
Glau: Now you are misquoting me. I said no one “should” care and I certainly don’t. I can’t speak for anyone but myself. Nor can you. If someone tells you that he is Napoleon are you required to agree with him? If you fail to endorse his delusions are you being Napoleonphobic? It it exactly the same situation if a man tells you that he is a woman. No one can change their biological sex. The mentally ill are entitled to freely live their lives with sympathy and care but not forced acceptance of their fantasies.
In the early 70s I was a contractor on an Airforce base. At that time female airmen were being assigned to clean both women's and men's WC. They didn't shut them down and a female airman was cleaning urinals while I was using one. I've stood next to a beautiful skirt raised Thai kathoey at urinals in the men's room in Bangkok. In Thailand and China there have been women cleaning the men's room with me in it. In Xi'an a big restroom access walked into the urinal area. Women turned left right away to go to the lady's women only throne room, men walked past them to the men's thrones. In none of those cases did I feel threatened or even uncomfortable.
That is very different from nude spaces like women's shower and changing rooms at a gym. If you have an exposed penis, you don't belong there because I have no doubt that that would be uncomfortable at the very least for women also in a state of nudity. The problem with transwomen is that women have no way of knowing if someone has true gender dysphoria and are not likely to be a threat or they are attention seekers or worse.
We lost a perfectly winnable election partly because voters saw progressives tied up in knots over this issue and wondered where common sense he gone. It’s a big deal for the tiny fraction of the population who have gender dysphoria but to the average working person it’s irrelevant.
I do agree women should not be described as bigots if they want female only spaces kept as they are. The fight for equality is only decades old and these gains are not in cement. The fact it was progressives who tried to dismantle them is shocking. If we want to build more unisex facilities- that’s great but sending trans women to a women’s shelter or prison is madness.
If I was to suggest as a white male how my black family and friends should feel safe and comfortable around that would be seen as insensitive and inappropriate
I feel your first sentence nails it! I have long wondered just how much damage this has done in certain areas, if you consider the number versus the noise. This in no way belittles the problems ANYONE has.
Great stuff Steve, really well done. Have you heard of “She’s Not Your Trauma/Therapy”?It’s essentially a framework for domestic violence work. The idea being that a man suffering from mental health issues cannot, and should not, use this as an excuse for being abusive towards his female intimate partner.
I absolutely agree with the idea. Unfortunately it gets tricky when confronting the ‘trans’ issue. The theory is part of a broader framework of ‘Intersectional Feminism’ (so I’m told), so if a man says he is a woman, then he should be treated as such.
The reason your article resonated with me is that during a recent conversation, I took the ‘side’ of JK Rowling stating that I believed people are attributing beliefs to her that she doesn’t have (she has said many times that she isn’t trans phobic). She simply believes (as I do) that ‘transgender’ men do not belong in women’s prisons/bathrooms/rape crises centres etc.
A rapist who says he is a woman just before sentencing should not be sent to a women’s prison. If there is any doubt about his gender, maybe seek the advice of his victims.
Anyway, the person I was discussing this with had a unique take, along the lines of the theories I mentioned earlier.
They believed that, as JK Rowling was herself a victim of domestic abuse, her current stance was simply Ms Rowling working through her own trauma as a victim by placing trans people “in danger”.
I've taken JKR's position in discussions. Well, I say "discussions" but generally it immediately results in vile insults and being told to "end" myself. It is unfortunate that in the main it's a subject which cannot be debated. Going fairly smoothly here though. 🤞
I have dared to wonder whether the proliferation of these very partisan discussions over social media in recent years, possibly in far greater proportion than the frequency of the circumstance itself, has not helped to create some of the great divide we find politically? Especially in areas of very conservative countries like America where the Culture Wars have been so damaging.
Have whatever opinion you will about bathrooms, sports, or trans youth, I am not here to debate any of those things. The anti- trans laws being proposed & passed in the States & the UK go well beyond it. There was proposed in Montana that would charge any trans person even if they have had full surgeries with indecent exposure in bathrooms, changing rooms, pools. How they can tell who had what parts originally I don't know. The people leading the charge on these laws do not care about women's safety. They are the same people endangering women's healthcare and advocating for ending no fault divorce. Making it harder for abused women to leave their husbands. Worrying about who comes into the bathroom is the least of my concerns as a woman. Both domestic violence and hate crimes against all kinds of minority groups have soared since the Grand Master of Protecting Women has been elected.
“The people leading the charge on these laws do not care about women's safety. They are the same people endangering women's healthcare and advocating for ending no fault divorce”
Yeah, I absolutely agree. As all too often happens, the reactionaries and extremists have taken a valid issue and used it as an excuse to attack a group they hate. The fact they could frame it as caring about women’s right (people like Matt Walsh spring to mind) was just a convenient excuse.
Others, and I’m seeing it more and more often, were formerly sane, nuanced adults who have been radicalised by the years of threats and gaslighting.
My advice to men who think they are women. If you think that, there are a few things that you need to understand. First of all is that you are still a man because you can't change your biological sex. It's okay to dress any way you wish and to adopt any superficial, stereotypical attributes of women that you desire. Live your life. No one should care, I certainly don't. However, because women are entitled to be treated fairly and to enjoy privacy from men there are certain things that are prohibited to you and me because we are men. You can't compete against women in most sports because it would be unfair. You can't go into women's private places like restrooms and locker rooms because that would make them feel unsafe. Finally, if you are a criminal you certainly can't be imprisoned with women.
That's it, just like me.
Exactly, trans women are welcome in men's private spaces and I would stand up for their right to be treated with civility and respect in those spaces. Their are many kinds of men and I have no problem with diverse presentation.
Boom! There it is, right there:
"And this trick, for the record, is one that every man who decided to ignore a woman saying 'no' has to pull."
and
"Because the entire reason women's spaces exist is to offer women privacy and protection from men who think like this."
This is the same thing that struck me as I read it. Thanks Matt.
There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
Exactly this. This issue would never have reached this level of toxicity if some basic, common sense efforts were made to deal with the fetishists and the predators.
Sadly, after years of abuse and attacks, there are a lot of people who have lost all interest in differentiating. And I can’t blame them.
Trans activism has done immeasurable damage to the trans community and even the LGB community as a whole.
GD or not, males stay out.
Women and girls aren’t emotional support animals for deluded males.
It’s not who passes for a woman… it’s not that some restrooms have men and women in. In those particular restrooms the women understand the deal. The problem is men in women’s restrooms as a norm. Because if that is legalised across the board, then it’s an exponential problem… because some men will take advantage of those rules, as some men have done in women’s prisons, to the point of rape and impregnating a woman.
If I’m walking behind a woman at night, I make a point of crossing the road because I know there is a thought in her head, a thought that I wouldn’t have, if the situation was reversed and she was walking behind me.
Namely, that she might be at risk of harm.
Some people answer that with ‘well, we can all be at risk of harm at some point’ to which I say, imagine hearing a noise on the stairs as you’re trying to sleep…. It’s dark…. You get up cautiously and go look but as your hand reaches the handle of the door,
the door bursts open and a figure pushes you to the ground.
You’re told to be quiet.
He has a knife. Someone else is rifling through the drawers.
They leave. It could have been worse.
Now, go to bed the next night.
Tell me you’re gonna sleep like a baby.
Tonight, it just might be worse.
And on. And on.
You’ve entered the world of what might happen. And you’re on your guard in a way you weren’t the night before it happened.
That is a woman’s world.
Always.
This shit is ok when it’s over there, way over there… not in our jurisdiction…. But we always see a little bit more when we live it a little.
And for men not to get that,
where women are concerned,
Is kinda strange to me, and a touch sad.
Spot on, Mike, you've got it.
It’s okay Mike, Frank’s beleaguered wife agrees with him, supposedly.
Right, Frank?
well said Mike, thankyou
In real gender dysphoria that has included medical transition, it is unlikely that women would be able to tell the difference. Unless we are going to do XX vs XY tests and give everyone an armband to identify their gender, it is just a physical appearance issue.
No, MEN can't tell the difference. Women can tell the difference every single time. Recognising the difference between male and female is an evolutionary survival trait women have relied on for all of time. Even if there's a double take, that double take happens for a reason: because on the deepest level, women know when they are in the presence of a male, regardless the modifications.
It’s not just a physical appearance issue, Frank: “transitioned” males still retain much of their physical advantage, and male pattern violence.
Are armbands needed? Don’t be ridiculous.
Do you know who *always* knows? The male in question.
Why are *you* so eager to let them off the hook, to give them cover, to put women and girls are greater risk?
Men who are pretending to be women rarely pass as such. Women who pretend to be men, and who have taken enough testosterone, can generally pass more easily. The entire reason why the gender ideologues began experimenting on children is that they believe the males would "get better outcomes" if they don't go through normal male puberty. "Better outcomes" translates as "They would pass better as women." This isn't just my opinion, it is a fact that gender medical professionals are very open about.
Another reality that the gender ideologues are not open about is that men act like men after they have transitioned, they don't act like women. A lot of them are narcissistic and they don't change their entitled, self-centered, pushy personalities after they transition, no matter what body parts they hack off or how much estrogen they use.
There is no link between how 'true' someone's gender dysphoria is and how well they pass. And no woman knows what's going on in the head of the gender dysphoric man when he walks into the women's toilets. And the vast majority of 'trans women' today still have their male genitals intact.
That's just not true
Nice one
women cannot tell the difference between a genuine transwoman (man) and a pervert, fetishist or chancer just by looking at them and for this reason, none of them should be able to come into our private spaces. They say they can't use the men's room because they fear being attacked but that's exactly how we women feel every time a male bodied person enters our spaces.
So awesome that you guys are finally reaching that conclusion. My other half still doesn’t get it. I too started out sanguine towards transppl in the wrong loo, but the complete failure to set any boundaries at all is worrying to me. I also agree with Frank that it cuts both ways: if single sex spaces are important for women then there must be at least some single sex spaces that are reserved for men as well.
There’s no true “trans” because there is no real “trans.” The whole thing is a fraud.
The only way to label this nonsense is by self-declaration because it’s fake.
Therefore, anyone who self-declares as “trans” is valid because there is no test. The reason there is no test is because it’s all a lie.
So the problem is that “trans” does not exist. The answer to all of it is no.
The problem is the never-ending entitlement of men to define women's boundaries for them.
You’re a moron
YES!
Well the situation is the same reversed. Any XX person that transitions medically to a male identity would be able to use the men's restroom.
I think the more recent never-ending general demonstrated entitlement is that women have no boundaries, refuse to have anyone else set any boundaries for them, but then also behave as Karens that can tell everyone else how they must live their lives.
The situation is not the same reversed you colossal buffoon.
Women, even on post pubertal T, do not gain the same physical advantage as males who go through puberty do.
JFC Frank.
“My wife agrees with me”
You’re probably such a nightmare when she doesn’t that she just strokes your ego.
Listen to JW
Read Kathleen Stock, Emma Hilton, and myriad others who’ve put in the work that you so breezily assume you’ve worked out all by your cognitively unimpressive lonesome.
Stop smelling your farts, Frank, you’re delusional from methane poisoning.
Alright man, that’s enough. Disagreement is welcome here, abuse is not.
Frank and others have tried several times to be reasonable and respectful. If you can’t express yourself more productively than screeching at people I’m going to ban you.
You sound like a nice person.
It's men's history-long 'redefining' of female boundaries with violence and force that is the point here. Go elsewhere for your bizarre little opportunistic wobble about 'Karens.' Jesus.
Whether a man has dysphoria or schizophrenia is irrelevant to women and girls needing their own single-sex spaces. Women and girls are not "support animals" for mentally ill males.
And there's the sexual fetish of autogynephilia, which most of these men who identify as women have.
There is no real “gender dysphoria.”
None of this is real, and as you admit none of this can be separated or defined.
It’s all one big fraud.
faktisk er årsagen ligegyldig.
har han penis, skal han IKKE bruge kvinders baderum, toiletter, sportsgrene osv.
og så er det fløjtende ligegyldigt hvad han føler eller hvorfor han føler det.
han er IKKE velkommen der.
It seems to me that this debate (and several of the other debates over gendered spaces) are all downstream of a major issue: that women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing. Unfortunately, it's also a thorny one. But a woman in the situation of "unknown person in fenced space" isn't doing gender studies; she's just had her IFF tripped, and this mysterious individual who apparently does NOT respect boundaries wants to talk gender politics?
And bringing in FtMs just complicates things further. How comfortable are cis women sharing a restroom with them?
I do think society is becoming more gender-neutral, which will help.
"women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing."
Yes, this is clearly the underlying issue, but I don't see it going away any time soon. Something like 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. 92% of it against women. Never mind general creepiness and inappropriate, stalker-ish behaviour.
Women's spaces are an imperfect solution to this problem. But they are a solution. Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.
Good luck with that Steve.
We men are stronger, faster, and more violent: T is a hell of a molecule.
Perhaps you should refrain from pontificating about what women should or will accept, and listen instead to their voices.
"Perhaps you should refrain from pontificating about what women should or will accept, and listen instead to their voices."
Maybe you shouldn't be in such a hurry to jump on a high horse that you fail to notice I haven't pontificated about anything.
Do you recognize this, Steve?
“Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.”
Yeah, maybe it’ll be moot to *you*.
Likely not for any real world females who are actually familiar with the realities of male violence and living with the oppressive and omnipresent male gaze.
Seriously dude, get over yourself. And listen.
I’d be happy to point you toward many women who will take the time to make sure that you understand fully.
And in the meantime, please stop speaking for such women. You seem to have a good mind and the right motivation — don’t let yourself be part of the problem just because you’re too proud to admit a fault or failure.
I was about to spring to your defence Steve and say I didn’t notice any pontificating either and thought it was a brilliant article . Cheeky title though:D I thought you were on the other side for a moment. Actually just two days ago, I was coming out of a cubicle and noticed a man at the basins and he immediately said I’m so sorry. Is it okay if I just wash my hands quickly? The gents are away on the other side of the building“(which was true) it was no issue at all
Just out of curiosity, what are the stats on trans women’s violence against women? I’ve been at the receiving end of male sexual violence multiple times. Weirdly enough none of them wore dresses.
Yes, I’m sure this is almost all women’s experience as men outnumber trans women by several orders of magnitude.
But according to the available data, trans women, per capita, are more likely to commit sexual offences than men.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/
So, I doubt that very much/ other sources are giving me different info. But let’s accept it. Let’s say it’s 100% correct. The current situation is still not only not protecting women in women’s bathrooms - it’s actually endangering us far more.
Let me lay it out and you tell me what you think.
So our premise is - trans women are still somehow ‘men on the inside’, therefore dangerous to cis women. But we agree they are a very small part of the population. So if you asked an average woman would she be more comfortable in the same bathroom with a trans woman or with a cis man, can we agree it would probably be the cis man that causes more stress? As, in line with our previous exchange, most of us who have had harrowing experiences have had them with regular men, not trans women.
And here you will say ‘well of course!! All men should DEFINITELY stay out of women’s spaces, that’s the whole point of my article, didn’t you read it?
And I did. Except the issue we come to now is that trans men also exist. And I don’t know if you’re following that side of things - I feel like trans men are forever in the shadows somehow, no one ever brings them up in debates - but with how hormone therapy and such has developed, trans men look 100% like men. I’m talking beard, pecs, hurly burly man looks.
And those 100% male presenting people are now SUPPOSED to be in my bathroom. Because they were born female, right? And so far so good, I have nothing against either group of trans people in my bathroom.
But I wonder if you are seeing my issue already? If previously we said ‘well, any man can PRETEND to be a woman in order to gain access to women’s spaces’ - what we have done now is literally assured that they don’t even have to pretend. Any random dude without even combing his hair can now rock up to the women’s room and say ‘oh yeah I know I look like this, but I was born with a vagina.’
And, like….. am I gonna check?? Are you gonna check? Are we installing genital screening in bathrooms and are any of us comfortable undergoing that?? So effectively, this change literally throws the doors of women’s bathrooms open to any single man casual enough to say ‘oh yeah I was born female’.
Do you genuinely think that’s better and safer for us? Before at least they had to take hormones and pick out a dress.
This will never happen because men are by definition a threat and the ones that aren’t “that bad” make all sorts of excuses for the ones that are. Since there is no way to tell them apart, it’s not practical to give any man the benefit of the doubt. This especially applies to men who want to cross-dress as a way to express their fetish. They specifically don’t belong around women.
This is how male nature is and only people who lie and deny the reality of male stupidity and violence (that’s many people, especially men) would make excuses for the “trans” lie.
The answer is no, to all of it.
Women only spaces will always be needed to assist women to lead full lives in the public sphere. At work, school/ university, in public shopping centres. Women need to be in these places and need to be able to attend void, defecate, change menstrual products without males present. Pregnant women, women with any kind of disability, mothers with small children - all need the safety of women only facilities even more. Men, even ones who dress like women, in women's spaces will drive the most vulnerable women out of public life. This is deeply unjust. And the women who blithely agree that men who think they are meant to be women are fine in women's facilities - are not thinking of the cancer patient who is struggling with a new stoma. Or the women who have been abused before. Or whose religion forbids them being near unknown men. Women are a diverse group. And many have every reason to be fearful of strange men. And any man who feels he 'should' use the women's toilets as a matter of principle is strange indeed.
I think it would be fair to state that women's advocacy has played an enormous role in managing or mitigating the impact men's violence from the early development of women's shelters, to raising awareness, to working towards a justice system that is beginning to take it seriously and so on and so on. I think feminism has been very active in this way. But solving the root problem of male violence towards women and children is not a something that women should be asked to do and I think asking women to actively probe men to find out if they are violent is a bit like suggesting a game of Russian roulette.
Women 'feel' like men are a threat to them? Dear God. Read the Dominic Pelicot case as a starting point. Read stats on voyeurism in women's toilets, the images uploaded to the net, as a growing category of porn. Don't top there. Men ARE a threat to women. Not all men but god knows enough that no woman gets to feel safe.
The vast majority of men are honorable, but there’s no way to read intentions at first glance. The old line about “all men are rapists” is dead wrong, but given the size differential, women just have to be careful, unfortunately.
Most men wouldn't rape. But any man could. Except 'trans men'.
So you mean women then!
No such thing as CIS , vile term
It’s not a differentiator it’s reality vs feelings
Well actually many (not all) think they are the opposite sex just cos they have taken a few hormones and inverted their dangly bits
Women are fine sharing bathrooms with FtM. They are still women. Lesbians - still women. But MtF make me want to carry knives everywhere i go. And i have taught my girls the right places to slash and stab for quick bleed out (yes, we butcher). If they are in that position, getting them mad only makes it more dangerous. Better is arterial blood and possible death.
As the “trans” cult loses support, as detransitioners get more publicity, it is becoming more openly violent snd murderous. They shouldn’t be allowed on planes.
By the way, the “real ones” have Gender Identity Disorder, not “gender dysphoria.” The former appears around age 4-6 and is lifelong; the latter appears shortly after getting on social media and most outgrow it in a few years.
But by then many have destroyed their health with hormones and their bodies with surgery. GD has no diagnostic criteria past self-declaration and is closely linked with other psychiatric disorders.
This.
And then the adult trans IDing males seek to retcon reality and justify their depravity by convincing a generation of children to harm themselves.
Really fine people there, as the Burger King once said about his Nazi friends.
It's all culture bound and what we know is gleaned through different eras and with the gatekeeping of the time. Traditional transexuals have always been motivated to confirm the born in the wrong body narrative but doesn't mean we have any evidence it's true.
In real life, women are much more endangered than “ trans” people.dumped boyfriends, jealous husbands.
I don’t like the “trans” cult.
Hi Steve! This is one of the first essays of yours I’ve read in at least a year after dropping off the face of the internet. It’s been a very interesting and disturbing one. I left twitter, TikTok, etc. a long time ago so I miss a lot of these happenings. As someone who’s quite present in my local queer and trans communities, I was absolutely horrified reading the many posts and articles you linked. It definitely confirmed my decision to stay off those circles of the internet, but also gave me a lot of insight into the fear of and opposition to trans people. The behavior you outlined in this article is genuinely abhorrent and also a very accurate representation of the fears I hear cis people expressing. Like exactly. And it was very interesting because this kind of stuff would be so quickly condemned in my personal social circles, so I never understood where all these fears were coming from. I’d like to think that the majority of real trans communities are the same and that the crazies flock to X, but I can’t be sure. I have a question though! At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise? I’m curious!
"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrified reaction from the woman in the bathroom because they look like women. Right now, and for many years, there have been trans women using female spaces without causing any problems.
The problem is, the question of whether one passes is VERY subjective. Especially in today's insane climate. There's a whole echo chamber on social media built around convincing people who very clearly don't pass at all that they're Gal Gadot. Plus, there's the whole "trans women don't owe you femininity" wing of trans activism that claims that anybody, even a bearded rugby player with hairy shovels for hands becomes a woman the instant they say they identify as one.
But yeah, the more I think about it, maybe the problem is the whole concept of "passing."
Because the question isn't what you can fool people into believing, the question is what is actually true. Trans women are men who wish to be perceived as women. That's absolutely fine. 95% of the time the way you're perceived is all that really matters. But I think it's a huge mistake to think it's cruel or "transphobic" if there are times when they have to defer to their biology.
So my preferred solution, which some public spaces are already adopting, is to make men's toilets gender-neutral spaces where it's normal to see all "genders" using them, and leave female spaces for females.
Who knows, in a few generations, maybe this would lead to a world where it becomes so normal to see male- and female-presenting people in a single restroom that the concept of gendered spaces fades away on its own. But the testing ground for that should be male spaces, where there is no increased risk caused by mixing. Not female spaces.
No maybe, Steve.
Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
C'mon Steve, if he fools you, that's not his problem? You got 90% of the way but didn't want to commit to your own views?
Think of Boy's Don't Cry - while the men are the true evil here, it's clear to me the protagonist doesn't get meaningful consent from her partner. Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?
I get that someone can adopt a gender identity of the opposite sex and live without much issue, but it wouldn't be acceptable to anyone's standards to withhold this info to a potential intimate partner, for example. This means passing people can probably get by just fine but the key thing is they do actually need to accept who they are, because that is just reality. You actually can't be something you're not.
It is not whether he fools someone (btw misgendering some of the activists would say). It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man. I have met “feminine” trans, none convince and the most convincing only gets away with for a couple of minutes at best in close proximity. Distance is hardly a factor in justifying this nonsense. Live their lives and let women live theirs.
This makes perfect sense. While I do understand that this may create fear among trans men of violence in male spaces, why should women be the ones to accommodate what trans men think they need?
But the follow on would be what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?
“ what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?”
Just to be clear, I presume you’re meaning trans identifying man here? Not what most people mean when they say trans man?
If so, I’d be a little surprised I guess, but no big deal. Even if this person passed fully as female, I’d be maybe minimally uncomfortable, but that discomfort wouldn’t come with any fear that they’d hurt me or do anything inappropriate.
It’s funny, one of the Reddit posts I saw while researching this was a trans woman raging because his university had designated the men’s as the “inclusive” “all-gender” bathroom and had left the women’s for women.
He had an option, everything was fine, but he could no longer justify invading the women’s.
There are no “trans” people.
How on earth could anyone judge how someone passes? By a national passing certification board? Including what—hands, feet, voice, stupid ego? Who makes these decisions?
How many males actually pass? Basically none. Men are delusional, and they think they all pass when clearly they don’t.
There is no way to do this. They’re not “trans” women. They’re men. If they’re told no from the beginning, the problem isn’t created. Society cannot function like this, and women are more important than males and their delusions and porn addictions.
And exactly how many pass? Almost none. But the clue is in the word, pass. If they also pass as under 18, would they get into minor’s spaces? If you PASS, then you are NOT. Live your life as you please but without forcing others to live their lives according to your self perception.
“And exactly how many pass? Almost none.”
I don’t know. Nor do you. Largely because trans women who pass, by definition, aren’t read as trans women.
Yes, very obviously trans women are not women. But if a trans woman passes as a woman, then there are certain situations where them living as they please is based on YOUR perception.
There’s a good chance, for example that you’ve passed a trans woman on the street, or even shared a bathroom with one, and felt zero discomfort because you perceived them as a woman. So, and this is a serious question, what do you suggest doing with this person?
I’ve been unequivocal in my support for women’s spaces. And, of course, spaces like prisons and rape shelters and sports are different and should be managed based on sex regardless of presentation. But total absolutism seems silly as well as obviously unenforceable.
I feel no discomfort in meeting or dealing with trans. My non recognition of trans identified males as women is not based on my discomfort levels, as it doesn’t bother me. The passables I have met, are only passable at a distance, close contact generally tells me who is who and what is what. At least we agree on the issue of prisons which has always been my main area of concern on the issue, one I had written about prior to setting up substack and possibly won’t return to, anytime soon.
Respectfully, I would ask you not to use cis, we are women and don't need a prefix. Thanks 😊
I was about to say the same. I know it's an ancient word that has been used in scientific terms for a very long time but I'm simply a woman. My sexual preference is my own business.
What do you mean by sexual preference?
Hi! I am actually a fellow (almost) woman and while I understand where you’re coming from, cis isn’t a derogatory word nor a prefix. It’s just an adjective people use for clarity when trans people are involved in the discussion. It comes from the Latin preposition meaning “on this side of” as opposed to trans which is “the other side of”. The word is not meant to degrade your womanhood any more than adjectives like “white” or “brunette” would. Although I apologize if it’s been used that way towards you in the past. People can be shitty.
Thank you. Although it isn't usually a derogatory word, it has been hijacked by the 'trans' community as a slur.
My hackles just rise when I see it 🤣
Its use is very recent. If you need any prefix just say “real”
You will never be a woman Theo, no almost about it.
…The clown suddenly disengages
I swear you make fun of yourselves.
I’m not trans you absolute clown 🤦
It isn't for YOU to decide what WE consider to be derogatory. Arguably, "tr**ny" and "ni***r" aren't derogatory to some, but I'd like to see you call Stephen Halliday the former, or shout out the latter in the middle of Brixton.
I’m also loving this we vs. you thing. What exactly is the difference between us?
I mean, okay. Those are not at all the same thing. But you’re clearly not here for a good faith discussion.
So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a permanent, biological trait. Things like chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, male vs female etc are part of sex.
Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex. This does not mean that gender is not real, that argument is silly and confusing imo. Gender is a complex series of learned behaviors and mannerisms that we replicate over generations. People sometimes object to this saying that it boils gender down to stereotypes, but that’s kind of what we’re addressing when we say gender isn’t binary. One does not have to conform to all gendered behaviors to be a woman, man, etc. Some people feel the need to create additional labels across that spectrum, but that’s not mandatory.
In summary of this point, people are arguing that gender identity determines gender. Not that it determines sex. And if they are arguing it determines sex they’re being silly and are factually incorrect.
Second, you gave an example of “gender ideology”, that a young boy will play with dolls and wear dresses and people will say he is really a girl. Now, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. So I will not deny that someone out there believes something like that, nor that you’ve witnessed someone say something similar.
However, it’s important to note that (and this is coming from someone who knows dozens of real life trans people and even more people who support them) almost nobody actually believes that. Like I have really, truly, never met a single person, trans or otherwise, who would look at a boy playing with dolls and say he is a girl. Again not denying that you’ve seen it. But the internet amplifies rage inducing opinions and it’s important to keep that in mind.
Regarding your point about stereotypes, I agree they are harmful. But when people say “cis” to refer to people, we’ll use women as an example, they are not labeling that woman as a “stereotypical girly girl” and saying that is what defines her womanhood. They are saying that the woman was born as a female and is comfortable with the gender that comes as the default for it in our society. I know plenty of cis women who are not particularly feminine.
Cis = someone who identifies with their gender assigned at birth. This is most people, so the adjective cis is rarely needed unless we’re discussing trans people, in which case it’s a helpful distinction.
So I was explaining the linguistic origin of the term. It’s a Latin preposition that means “this side of”, as I said. Some other examples of English prepositions: Around, across, within, between, beyond, despite, etc.
These words don’t mean anything on their own and cis is especially confusing since it’s Latin.
To answer your question directly. Cis can mean on this side of anything. When referring to people who are not trans, the original term is actually “cisgender”. It was later shortened to cis in certain contexts for convenience.
The terms cis and trans can also be found in chemistry and cellular biology. We have record of them being used to describe gender and or sexuality dating back to over a century ago.
Also, after looking back at my comment, I don’t specifically refer to women at all in it. So I’m unsure what term you would have preferred I use there. Non-trans-people? That’s what cis means.
Just woman will do 😊
I wasn’t talking about women specifically though, just people who aren’t trans in general?
I hate that the argument has given toilets and women’s shelters equal footing. I don’t give a rats ass which toilet anyone uses. But I DO feel very strongly about preserving single sex spaces in medical settings, shelters, and where women are processing trauma.
Is voyeurism not a crime, Steve?
Every time such a male enters a female private space …
Saying things like this does not make you persuasive. It just makes you appear ignorant of the facts.
It is not, generally speaking, illegal for a man to enter a female space. In fact, given the current ridiculous state of the law, it could be considered discriminatory to prevent a man from entering a female space. We've seen this play out several times with women being ignored or even penalised when they object to men in gym changing rooms and public bathrooms.
It seems you think it's valiant to be absolutist and to brook no nuance, but this approach causes more problems than it solves. We obviously agree on the importance and value of female-only spaces. But you're not going to solve this problem by yelling at it or high-horsing everyone who acknowledges a little more nuance than you do.
Lord god almighty what has transpired while I was asleep
I suspect that is not the case. I do have a male friend who likes to hear women peeing but I'm absolutely certain he doesn't visit women's toilets to do so.
You absolutely certain about that libby ? I wouldn’t be so certain, we have precisely no idea what others we claim to be friends do in their private life and knowing he has that pervy interest it’s potentially not just where he leaves it lol !!
Good for you & for him, Libby.
That in no way changes the fact that there are AGP males who do enter female spaces for more than just peeing (themselves).
Do you truly believe that being possessed of a “female gender identity” magically comes with a guarantee that an individual’s male pattern violence, physical advantage over women, and even paraphilic behaviours are eliminated?
And he’s still your friend with that creepy interest and he thinks it’s okay to talk about it and expect people to be alright with him finding listening to women pee as interesting or a turn on?! Haha choose your mates more wisely
I’m not here to persuade you. I’m here to shame you.
If you had an ounce of intellectual integrity, or curiosity, or anything but male pattern hubris (like I often have), you’d consider the possibility that the conclusion you’ve reached is flawed.
Read the fucking philosopher’s post.
Engage with her instead of angry old me.
But seriously, open yourself up to the possibility that perhaps she might have considered the nuances even more deeply than you have, and might bring you some insights that you seem lacking from your male pov.
Get. Over. Yourself.
You’ll end up a better man as a result, and a better ally.
I can’t figure out what the argument is
"I’m not here to persuade you. I’m here to shame you."
😅 Sadly, I think he's been pretty clear that his motivations aren't about productive conversation or change but self aggrandisement.
Reminds me of talking to the white saviours of the anti-racist movement. It's my first encounter with the TERF variant.
Tf is going on 😭
Steve is going to get his hypocritical ass handed to him shortly.
That’s WTF is going on Theo.
Read for fucking comprehension man.
“Steve is going to get his hypocritical ass handed to him shortly.”
Whenever you’re ready. I’m literally quaking.
No such thing as CIS thanks Theo. Your comment is null and void once you use that
Outstanding article! I wish I’d read it 2 weeks ago when a 25 year old woman told me what a bigot I am.
Read the article and many of the responses. Impressed by the generally thoughtful and reasonable things people say. Because I have been unsure what to think on occasions I have been called a terf and roundly abused if I didn’t sound quite 'on message', whatever that happened to be. Thanks for this.
We can take care of all the "nuance" - or nonsense - by relieving ourselves of the notion that "trans" is a thing. FFS this is tiresome.
My advice to men who think they are women. If you think that, there are a few things that you need to understand. First of all is that you are still a man because you can't change your biological sex. It's okay to dress any way you wish and to adopt any superficial, stereotypical attributes of women that you desire. Live your life. No one should care, I certainly don't. However, because women are entitled to be treated fairly and to enjoy privacy from men there are certain things that are prohibited to you and me because we are men. You can't compete against women in most sports because it would be unfair. You can't go into women's private places like restrooms and locker rooms because that would make them feel unsafe. Finally, if you are a criminal you certainly can't be imprisoned with women.
That's it, just like me.
Glau: The way you deal with that is law enforcement just like any other assault not by forcing people to believe stupid shit like men can become women.
Glau: Now you are misquoting me. I said no one “should” care and I certainly don’t. I can’t speak for anyone but myself. Nor can you. If someone tells you that he is Napoleon are you required to agree with him? If you fail to endorse his delusions are you being Napoleonphobic? It it exactly the same situation if a man tells you that he is a woman. No one can change their biological sex. The mentally ill are entitled to freely live their lives with sympathy and care but not forced acceptance of their fantasies.
In the early 70s I was a contractor on an Airforce base. At that time female airmen were being assigned to clean both women's and men's WC. They didn't shut them down and a female airman was cleaning urinals while I was using one. I've stood next to a beautiful skirt raised Thai kathoey at urinals in the men's room in Bangkok. In Thailand and China there have been women cleaning the men's room with me in it. In Xi'an a big restroom access walked into the urinal area. Women turned left right away to go to the lady's women only throne room, men walked past them to the men's thrones. In none of those cases did I feel threatened or even uncomfortable.
That is very different from nude spaces like women's shower and changing rooms at a gym. If you have an exposed penis, you don't belong there because I have no doubt that that would be uncomfortable at the very least for women also in a state of nudity. The problem with transwomen is that women have no way of knowing if someone has true gender dysphoria and are not likely to be a threat or they are attention seekers or worse.
“That is very different from nude spaces like women's shower and changing rooms at a gym.”
🎯
One of the most frequent mistakes I see people making on this issue is acting as if all private spaces are the same or serve the same function.
We're male airmen assigned to clean both?
I don't know. I never went into the women's head. No one ever told me that
Damn. I almost didn’t read this because of the title. So glad I did! Beautifully written. Thank you! Subscribing.
Really refreshing to hear this from the male perspective. Interesting thought experiment.
We lost a perfectly winnable election partly because voters saw progressives tied up in knots over this issue and wondered where common sense he gone. It’s a big deal for the tiny fraction of the population who have gender dysphoria but to the average working person it’s irrelevant.
I do agree women should not be described as bigots if they want female only spaces kept as they are. The fight for equality is only decades old and these gains are not in cement. The fact it was progressives who tried to dismantle them is shocking. If we want to build more unisex facilities- that’s great but sending trans women to a women’s shelter or prison is madness.
If I was to suggest as a white male how my black family and friends should feel safe and comfortable around that would be seen as insensitive and inappropriate
I feel your first sentence nails it! I have long wondered just how much damage this has done in certain areas, if you consider the number versus the noise. This in no way belittles the problems ANYONE has.
Great stuff Steve, really well done. Have you heard of “She’s Not Your Trauma/Therapy”?It’s essentially a framework for domestic violence work. The idea being that a man suffering from mental health issues cannot, and should not, use this as an excuse for being abusive towards his female intimate partner.
I absolutely agree with the idea. Unfortunately it gets tricky when confronting the ‘trans’ issue. The theory is part of a broader framework of ‘Intersectional Feminism’ (so I’m told), so if a man says he is a woman, then he should be treated as such.
The reason your article resonated with me is that during a recent conversation, I took the ‘side’ of JK Rowling stating that I believed people are attributing beliefs to her that she doesn’t have (she has said many times that she isn’t trans phobic). She simply believes (as I do) that ‘transgender’ men do not belong in women’s prisons/bathrooms/rape crises centres etc.
A rapist who says he is a woman just before sentencing should not be sent to a women’s prison. If there is any doubt about his gender, maybe seek the advice of his victims.
Anyway, the person I was discussing this with had a unique take, along the lines of the theories I mentioned earlier.
They believed that, as JK Rowling was herself a victim of domestic abuse, her current stance was simply Ms Rowling working through her own trauma as a victim by placing trans people “in danger”.
Strange times.
I've taken JKR's position in discussions. Well, I say "discussions" but generally it immediately results in vile insults and being told to "end" myself. It is unfortunate that in the main it's a subject which cannot be debated. Going fairly smoothly here though. 🤞
Snap!
I have dared to wonder whether the proliferation of these very partisan discussions over social media in recent years, possibly in far greater proportion than the frequency of the circumstance itself, has not helped to create some of the great divide we find politically? Especially in areas of very conservative countries like America where the Culture Wars have been so damaging.
Have whatever opinion you will about bathrooms, sports, or trans youth, I am not here to debate any of those things. The anti- trans laws being proposed & passed in the States & the UK go well beyond it. There was proposed in Montana that would charge any trans person even if they have had full surgeries with indecent exposure in bathrooms, changing rooms, pools. How they can tell who had what parts originally I don't know. The people leading the charge on these laws do not care about women's safety. They are the same people endangering women's healthcare and advocating for ending no fault divorce. Making it harder for abused women to leave their husbands. Worrying about who comes into the bathroom is the least of my concerns as a woman. Both domestic violence and hate crimes against all kinds of minority groups have soared since the Grand Master of Protecting Women has been elected.
“The people leading the charge on these laws do not care about women's safety. They are the same people endangering women's healthcare and advocating for ending no fault divorce”
Yeah, I absolutely agree. As all too often happens, the reactionaries and extremists have taken a valid issue and used it as an excuse to attack a group they hate. The fact they could frame it as caring about women’s right (people like Matt Walsh spring to mind) was just a convenient excuse.
Others, and I’m seeing it more and more often, were formerly sane, nuanced adults who have been radicalised by the years of threats and gaslighting.
I really hope sanity can be restored.
Could you fill me in on what is happening in UK? I live there but have not read of any draconian situations.
I have one objection.
I prefer Brunello and Barolo.
🥂