There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
Exactly this. This issue would never have reached this level of toxicity if some basic, common sense efforts were made to deal with the fetishists and the predators.
Sadly, after years of abuse and attacks, there are a lot of people who have lost all interest in differentiating. And I can’t blame them.
Trans activism has done immeasurable damage to the trans community and even the LGB community as a whole.
It’s not who passes for a woman… it’s not that some restrooms have men and women in. Those particular restrooms the women understand the deal. It’s men in women’s restrooms. Because if that is legalised across the board, then it’s exponentially a problem… because some men will take advantage of those rules, as some men have done in women’s prisons, to the point of rape and impregnating a woman.
If I’m walking behind a woman at night, I make a point of crossing the road because I know there is a thought in her head, that I wouldn’t have, if she were walking behind me.
That she might be at risk of harm.
Some people answer that with ‘well, we can all be at risk of harm at some point’ to which I say, imagine hearing a noise on the stairs as you’re trying to sleep…. It’s dark…. You get up cautiously and go look but as your hand reaches the handle of the door,
the door bursts open and a figure pushes you to the ground.
You’re told to be quiet.
He has a knife. Someone else is rifling through the drawers.
They leave. It could have been worse.
Now, go to bed the next night.
Tell me you’re gonna sleep like a baby.
Tonight, it just might be worse.
And on. And on.
You’ve entered the world of what might happen. And you’re on your guard in a way you weren’t the night before it happened.
Always.
This shit is ok when it’s over there, way over there… not in our jurisdiction…. But we always see a little bit more when we live it a little.
In real gender dysphoria that has included medical transition, it is unlikely that women would be able to tell the difference. Unless we are going to do XX vs XY tests and give everyone an armband to identify their gender, it is just a physical appearance issue.
Your black and white position on this isn't going to win anything. I am sure you have been taking a dump at the airport bathroom with a biological XX person in the stall next to you, and you never noticed or could not tell. Likewise, I am sure females have been doing their business in a bathroom with other XY people and could not tell.
How are you suggesting we police that? What makes you think a real transitioned human like Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner is a threat to women in the bathroom. It seems overly paranoid, or just extreme.
You’re mighty casual with the risks to women, Frank.
What makes you think that Bruce Jenner isn’t? He’s admitted paraphilias involving *his own daughters*, they commonly cluster with others, often more dangerous.
Is it that he’s a hero to you? Deshawn Watson …
Is it that he seems nice? Ted Bundy …
It is *true* that some TIMs pass some of the time. And even that a few pass most of the time.
That doesn’t excuse your desire to extend a privilege to males in general (or at all).
Just as you ask how I’d “police” it, I ask you: are there going to be “passing police”?
How are women to know which TIMs have been certified as passing, or “safe”, and which haven’t?
The only answer is:
Hold all males accountable to the same rules. No XY in XX.
Enforce the laws we have, instead of excusing some subset of males that you (and if not you, who?) thinks women should be forced to accept in their private spaces.
And stop telling women what and who they should accept from males. Is that a clear enough response for you, Frank?
No, MEN can't tell the difference. Women can tell the difference every single time. Recognising the difference between male and female is an evolutionary survival trait women have relied on for all of time. Even if there's a double take, that double take happens for a reason: because on the deepest level, women know when they are in the presence of a male, regardless the modifications.
Well the situation is the same reversed. Any XX person that transitions medically to a male identity would be able to use the men's restroom.
I think the more recent never-ending general demonstrated entitlement is that women have no boundaries, refuse to have anyone else set any boundaries for them, but then also behave as Karens that can tell everyone else how they must live their lives.
The situation is not the same reversed you colossal buffoon.
Women, even on post pubertal T, do not gain the same physical advantage as males who go through puberty do.
JFC Frank.
“My wife agrees with me”
You’re probably such a nightmare when she doesn’t that she just strokes your ego.
Listen to JW
Read Kathleen Stock, Emma Hilton, and myriad others who’ve put in the work that you so breezily assume you’ve worked out all by your cognitively unimpressive lonesome.
Stop smelling your farts, Frank, you’re delusional from methane poisoning.
Alright man, that’s enough. Disagreement is welcome here, abuse is not.
Frank and others have tried several times to be reasonable and respectful. If you can’t express yourself more productively than screeching at people I’m going to ban you.
Neither I, nor anybody else, can learn from someone who is “not here to persuade, but to “shame.”
All you’ve been doing here is indulging your ego. It’s painfully obvious that nothing you’re saying, and certainly not the way you’re saying it, will persuade or edify anybody. Nor is it meant to. It’s just you flattering yourself for an imagined audience.
Again, disagreement is welcome here, and if you feel you have something valuable to share (like that research on single use spaces), I’m sure many people would be glad to hear it.
But if all you want to do is grandstand and abuse people and make silly little threats about “the hard way” (believe me when I say you don’t even begin to intimidate me), then yes, you’ll have to do it elsewhere.
It's men's history-long 'redefining' of female boundaries with violence and force that is the point here. Go elsewhere for your bizarre little opportunistic wobble about 'Karens.' Jesus.
My advice to men who think they are women. If you think that, there are a few things that you need to understand. First of all is that you are still a man because you can't change your biological sex. It's okay to dress any way you wish and to adopt any superficial, stereotypical attributes of women that you desire. Live your life. No one should care, I certainly don't. However, because women are entitled to be treated fairly and to enjoy privacy from men there are certain things that are prohibited to you and me because we are men. You can't compete against women in most sports because it would be unfair. You can't go into women's private places like restrooms and locker rooms because that would make them feel unsafe. Finally, if you are a criminal you certainly can't be imprisoned with women.
Hi Steve! This is one of the first essays of yours I’ve read in at least a year after dropping off the face of the internet. It’s been a very interesting and disturbing one. I left twitter, TikTok, etc. a long time ago so I miss a lot of these happenings. As someone who’s quite present in my local queer and trans communities, I was absolutely horrified reading the many posts and articles you linked. It definitely confirmed my decision to stay off those circles of the internet, but also gave me a lot of insight into the fear of and opposition to trans people. The behavior you outlined in this article is genuinely abhorrent and also a very accurate representation of the fears I hear cis people expressing. Like exactly. And it was very interesting because this kind of stuff would be so quickly condemned in my personal social circles, so I never understood where all these fears were coming from. I’d like to think that the majority of real trans communities are the same and that the crazies flock to X, but I can’t be sure. I have a question though! At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise? I’m curious!
"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrified reaction from the woman in the bathroom because they look like women. Right now, and for many years, there have been trans women using female spaces without causing any problems.
The problem is, the question of whether one passes is VERY subjective. Especially in today's insane climate. There's a whole echo chamber on social media built around convincing people who very clearly don't pass at all that they're Gal Gadot. Plus, there's the whole "trans women don't owe you femininity" wing of trans activism that claims that anybody, even a bearded rugby player with hairy shovels for hands becomes a woman the instant they say they identify as one.
But yeah, the more I think about it, maybe the problem is the whole concept of "passing."
Because the question isn't what you can fool people into believing, the question is what is actually true. Trans women are men who wish to be perceived as women. That's absolutely fine. 95% of the time the way you're perceived is all that really matters. But I think it's a huge mistake to think it's cruel or "transphobic" if there are times when they have to defer to their biology.
So my preferred solution, which some public spaces are already adopting, is to make men's toilets gender-neutral spaces where it's normal to see all "genders" using them, and leave female spaces for females.
Who knows, in a few generations, maybe this would lead to a world where it becomes so normal to see male- and female-presenting people in a single restroom that the concept of gendered spaces fades away on its own. But the testing ground for that should be male spaces, where there is no increased risk caused by mixing. Not female spaces.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
This makes perfect sense. While I do understand that this may create fear among trans men of violence in male spaces, why should women be the ones to accommodate what trans men think they need?
But the follow on would be what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?
“ what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?”
Just to be clear, I presume you’re meaning trans identifying man here? Not what most people mean when they say trans man?
If so, I’d be a little surprised I guess, but no big deal. Even if this person passed fully as female, I’d be maybe minimally uncomfortable, but that discomfort wouldn’t come with any fear that they’d hurt me or do anything inappropriate.
It’s funny, one of the Reddit posts I saw while researching this was a trans woman raging because his university had designated the men’s as the “inclusive” “all-gender” bathroom and had left the women’s for women.
He had an option, everything was fine, but he could no longer justify invading the women’s.
I’m not here to persuade you. I’m here to shame you.
If you had an ounce of intellectual integrity, or curiosity, or anything but male pattern hubris (like I often have), you’d consider the possibility that the conclusion you’ve reached is flawed.
Read the fucking philosopher’s post.
Engage with her instead of angry old me.
But seriously, open yourself up to the possibility that perhaps she might have considered the nuances even more deeply than you have, and might bring you some insights that you seem lacking from your male pov.
Get. Over. Yourself.
You’ll end up a better man as a result, and a better ally.
Steve, will you ever respond to my repeated question about how “mooting an issue” (which you admit is impossible anyway) can be read as anything but pontificating to women?
I’ve already responded to it several times. The fact that this doesn’t appear to satisfy you is of literally no concern to me I’m afraid.
I’ll wait patiently to have my “hypocritical ass handed to me” as punishment.
Speaking of which, weren’t you all supposed to be laughing at me by now? What happened?
Are you not as important as you thought? Or did you figure out that the only person who seemed to have trouble understanding the very simple hypothetical I presented is you?
Also, after looking back at my comment, I don’t specifically refer to women at all in it. So I’m unsure what term you would have preferred I use there. Non-trans-people? That’s what cis means.
I’m having a hard time following your train of thought here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m working off of a couple assumptions based on your post history. You believe that sex determines your gender, and thus that trans women are actually men and vice versa for trans men. Wouldn’t trans people also fall under the category of “men and women” in that case? If gender is binary and can’t be changed, everyone is either a man or a woman. So how are those two categories helpful for distinguishing trans people from people who are not trans? This is why I find cis to be a useful term.
Hi! I am actually a fellow (almost) woman and while I understand where you’re coming from, cis isn’t a derogatory word nor a prefix. It’s just an adjective people use for clarity when trans people are involved in the discussion. It comes from the Latin preposition meaning “on this side of” as opposed to trans which is “the other side of”. The word is not meant to degrade your womanhood any more than adjectives like “white” or “brunette” would. Although I apologize if it’s been used that way towards you in the past. People can be shitty.
First, it assumes that people are male or female because of their gender identity rather than their biological sex. For people who believe that biological sex is real and that acknowledging it is important for purposes of rights, safeguarding and clear communication, using "cis" is therefore a loaded term.
Second, while I'd say that many people who espouse gender identity ideology (by which I mean the belief that we are male or female because of gender identity rather than sex) don't wish to reify sex stereotypes, in practice that tends to be what gender identity boils down to. Eg a little boy will play with dolls or want to wear dresses; this is taken as proof he is "really" a girl. Stereotypes limit both men and women but they tend to be more harmful for women and girls. To call a woman "cis" is therefore taken to mean that she identifies with the stereotypes associated with her sex, stereotypes many women find degrading.
In your explanation of the term you say it just means "this side of" - can you expand on this? This side of what?
So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a permanent, biological trait. Things like chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, male vs female etc are part of sex.
Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex. This does not mean that gender is not real, that argument is silly and confusing imo. Gender is a complex series of learned behaviors and mannerisms that we replicate over generations. People sometimes object to this saying that it boils gender down to stereotypes, but that’s kind of what we’re addressing when we say gender isn’t binary. One does not have to conform to all gendered behaviors to be a woman, man, etc. Some people feel the need to create additional labels across that spectrum, but that’s not mandatory.
In summary of this point, people are arguing that gender identity determines gender. Not that it determines sex. And if they are arguing it determines sex they’re being silly and are factually incorrect.
Second, you gave an example of “gender ideology”, that a young boy will play with dolls and wear dresses and people will say he is really a girl. Now, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. So I will not deny that someone out there believes something like that, nor that you’ve witnessed someone say something similar.
However, it’s important to note that (and this is coming from someone who knows dozens of real life trans people and even more people who support them) almost nobody actually believes that. Like I have really, truly, never met a single person, trans or otherwise, who would look at a boy playing with dolls and say he is a girl. Again not denying that you’ve seen it. But the internet amplifies rage inducing opinions and it’s important to keep that in mind.
Regarding your point about stereotypes, I agree they are harmful. But when people say “cis” to refer to people, we’ll use women as an example, they are not labeling that woman as a “stereotypical girly girl” and saying that is what defines her womanhood. They are saying that the woman was born as a female and is comfortable with the gender that comes as the default for it in our society. I know plenty of cis women who are not particularly feminine.
Cis = someone who identifies with their gender assigned at birth. This is most people, so the adjective cis is rarely needed unless we’re discussing trans people, in which case it’s a helpful distinction.
So I was explaining the linguistic origin of the term. It’s a Latin preposition that means “this side of”, as I said. Some other examples of English prepositions: Around, across, within, between, beyond, despite, etc.
These words don’t mean anything on their own and cis is especially confusing since it’s Latin.
To answer your question directly. Cis can mean on this side of anything. When referring to people who are not trans, the original term is actually “cisgender”. It was later shortened to cis in certain contexts for convenience.
The terms cis and trans can also be found in chemistry and cellular biology. We have record of them being used to describe gender and or sexuality dating back to over a century ago.
"Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex."
I think this is actually the sticking point for many people, myself included.
I've yet to see how "gender," as it's used by some members of the trans community, is anything more than, the collection of stereotypical male/female behaviours and expectations that appeals to a particular individual.
And by this definition, it seems obvious that there are as many genders as there are people. So while, yes, those stereotypical behaviours and expectations are socially constructed, we still see, in every single person, a different constellation of those stereotypes. And, indeed, we see many women who defy those stereotypes in various ways while still being women.
p.s. On "almost nobody believing" that a boy who plays with plays with dolls is really a girl, I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people making arguments exactly like this.
The article I've just linked to has a few. Here's trans charity Mermaids showing off training materials that literally presents gender on a continuum from G.I Joe to Barbie (https://x.com/steevqj/status/1755353186687180906?s=20). Trans reddit is filled with people explaining that they knew they were trans as children because they liked playing with dolls or wearing their mother's makeup.
It's always difficult to get a true sense of how prevalent a certain attitude is within a group. I try to be very careful about painting in broad strokes. But I think the viewpoint is more common than you're painting it here.
“nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.”
This just isn't true. Gender recognition certificates change a record of someone being male to being female, or vice versa. The whole problem of males in women's sports and in women's spaces rests on the claim that these people are now, for all practical purposes, the opposite sex to the one they were born.
The Sandie Peggie case in Scotland involves a nurse who was suspended for objecting to a male person in the female changing room. In the witness box this male person - a medical doctor - claimed to be biologically female. None of the NHS witnesses defending the treatment of Peggie will admit that Upton is male.
Gender identity is a bait and switch. We are asked to accept that a male person is female but as that is self-evidently untrue, a middle step is fabricated - we are asked to accept him not as female, but as a woman (what does “woman” mean? Insert circular definition). He then claims the right to spaces and resources reserved for female people. Alan Sokal has gone into more detail about the use of the word woman and how in practical terms it still means adult human female.
Saying things like this does not make you persuasive. It just makes you appear ignorant of the facts.
It is not, generally speaking, illegal for a man to enter a female space. In fact, given the current ridiculous state of the law, it could be considered discriminatory to prevent a man from entering a female space. We've seen this play out several times with women being ignored or even penalised when they object to men in gym changing rooms and public bathrooms.
It seems you think it's valiant to be absolutist and to brook no nuance, but this approach causes more problems than it solves. We obviously agree on the importance and value of female-only spaces. But you're not going to solve this problem by yelling at it or high-horsing everyone who acknowledges a little more nuance than you do.
Great stuff Steve, really well done. Have you heard of “She’s Not Your Trauma/Therapy”?It’s essentially a framework for domestic violence work. The idea being that a man suffering from mental health issues cannot, and should not, use this as an excuse for being abusive towards his female intimate partner.
I absolutely agree with the idea. Unfortunately it gets tricky when confronting the ‘trans’ issue. The theory is part of a broader framework of ‘Intersectional Feminism’ (so I’m told), so if a man says he is a woman, then he should be treated as such.
The reason your article resonated with me is that during a recent conversation, I took the ‘side’ of JK Rowling stating that I believed people are attributing beliefs to her that she doesn’t have (she has said many times that she isn’t trans phobic). She simply believes (as I do) that ‘transgender’ men do not belong in women’s prisons/bathrooms/rape crises centres etc.
A rapist who says he is a woman just before sentencing should not be sent to a women’s prison. If there is any doubt about his gender, maybe seek the advice of his victims.
Anyway, the person I was discussing this with had a unique take, along the lines of the theories I mentioned earlier.
They believed that, as JK Rowling was herself a victim of domestic abuse, her current stance was simply Ms Rowling working through her own trauma as a victim by placing trans people “in danger”.
In the early 70s I was a contractor on an Airforce base. At that time female airmen were being assigned to clean both women's and men's WC. They didn't shut them down and a female airman was cleaning urinals while I was using one. I've stood next to a beautiful skirt raised Thai kathoey at urinals in the men's room in Bangkok. In Thailand and China there have been women cleaning the men's room with me in it. In Xi'an a big restroom access walked into the urinal area. Women turned left right away to go to the lady's women only throne room, men walked past them to the men's thrones. In none of those cases did I feel threatened or even uncomfortable.
That is very different from nude spaces like women's shower and changing rooms at a gym. If you have an exposed penis, you don't belong there because I have no doubt that that would be uncomfortable at the very least for women also in a state of nudity. The problem with transwomen is that women have no way of knowing if someone has true gender dysphoria and are not likely to be a threat or they are attention seekers or worse.
It seems to me that this debate (and several of the other debates over gendered spaces) are all downstream of a major issue: that women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing. Unfortunately, it's also a thorny one. But a woman in the situation of "unknown person in fenced space" isn't doing gender studies; she's just had her IFF tripped, and this mysterious individual who apparently does NOT respect boundaries wants to talk gender politics?
And bringing in FtMs just complicates things further. How comfortable are cis women sharing a restroom with them?
I do think society is becoming more gender-neutral, which will help.
"women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing."
Yes, this is clearly the underlying issue, but I don't see it going away any time soon. Something like 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. 92% of it against women. Never mind general creepiness and inappropriate, stalker-ish behaviour.
Women's spaces are an imperfect solution to this problem. But they are a solution. Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.
“Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.”
Yeah, maybe it’ll be moot to *you*.
Likely not for any real world females who are actually familiar with the realities of male violence and living with the oppressive and omnipresent male gaze.
Seriously dude, get over yourself. And listen.
I’d be happy to point you toward many women who will take the time to make sure that you understand fully.
And in the meantime, please stop speaking for such women. You seem to have a good mind and the right motivation — don’t let yourself be part of the problem just because you’re too proud to admit a fault or failure.
Do you think the question of whether lesbians should share a changing room with straight women is moot? How about whether black women should share a bathroom with white women? Or maybe whether tall women should share spaces with short women?
To be clear, in the first two cases, there was spirited debate about these distinctions. But that debate is moot today. IF we one day arrive at a point where men pose no threat to women, the question will be equally moot. Note the IF.
I state clearly that we're a long way from that point. I personally don't believe we'll ever reach it. But recognising that if men no longer pose a threat to women, conversations about mitigating the threat men pose to women are moot, is not "pontificating." It is extremely rudimentary logic.
Also, I'm not attempting to speak for "women" because "women" are not a monolith who all think the same thing. I could just as easily point you to many women who welcome the abolition of sex segregation and think any man who declares himself a woman should immediately be granted unlimited access to women's spaces.
I disagree with those women.
So I've thought very carefully, spent a great deal of time listening to a variety of perspectives, and have come to my own conclusions.
That's what caring about an issue requires you to do.
If you want to be an ally of women, you need to get over yourself. If you simply want to be seen by some as an ally, so you can get social approval, while still damaging the cause you purport to support, keep doing what you’re doing.
The vast majority of men are honorable, but there’s no way to read intentions at first glance. The old line about “all men are rapists” is dead wrong, but given the size differential, women just have to be careful, unfortunately.
Women 'feel' like men are a threat to them? Dear God. Read the Dominic Pelicot case as a starting point. Read stats on voyeurism in women's toilets, the images uploaded to the net, as a growing category of porn. Don't top there. Men ARE a threat to women. Not all men but god knows enough that no woman gets to feel safe.
The only reason Sarah McBride became an issue is because SHE publicly identified as a trans-woman. Otherwise, no one would ever have questioned HER walking into a woman's bathroom. Why would they. SHE looks like a very normal woman.
If SHE walks into a men's bathroom, I as a man would immediately question why SHE is in there. So would you if you are honest.
Trans-woman have been using woman's bathrooms for years. The only reason you are writing your article is because you now are much more aware of their existence.
This issue is not trans-woman - people who truly live as a woman and have no malicious intent on assaulting a woman in any way.
The issue is men who have malicious intent to access woman's spaces. Guess what? This has also been going on for years. How would you distinguish a man who is maliciously dressed like Sarah McBride as being a man?
The question comes down to two things for those who think this through:
a. If you're a trans-woman that has not had gender affirming surgery, don't expose yourself in woman's only areas.
b. If a person complains about an abuse in a woman's bathroom, if you turn out to be sexually a man, you're going to have to work much harder to defend yourself.
You and I have had conversations about me being naked in men's spaces. You are not comfortable with nudity. I assume you're even less comfortable if you know me given you know I'm gay. Should a gay man be able to be in men's spaces naked? Should a lesbian be able to be in woman's spaces naked? I can push this to the extreme and state why is being naked such a big deal in the divided states? Seriously, it's just a body. Any sexuality you attribute to seeing a naked body is about you not the person being naked. But that's another whole discussion.
Participation in sports is an entirely different issue. That's also another discussion.
Whether a school keeps minors preferred pronouns from their parents is an entirely different issues. Also another discussion.
Gender Dysphoria is real. Trans people have always existed. Instead of irrational extreme positions by the extreme left and extreme right, sorting out making them feel included is not really that challenging. Its only challenging because of extreme politics.
Trans people and especially trans-woman would be best served by making peace with JK Rowling. I'm confident she would do everything in her power to make them feel comfortable if they acknowledged that a cis-woman does not necessarily need to support any man calling themselves a woman is no different than they are. That's the first step toward a rationale discussion.
Firstly, you and I appear to have differing opinions on what a "totally normal woman" looks like. Sarah McBride looks to me like a man dressed as a woman.
But yes, I'm fully aware that many trans women wouldn't have provoked the reaction I did in that bathroom. I've already said that elsewhere in the comments here. I also believe that gender dysphoria is real. I've never said otherwise. But a man with gender dysphoria remains a man. And as there's no reliable or meaningful field test for gender dysphoria, we've ended up in this ridiculous and dangerous situation where any man who claims to "feel like a woman" is immediately told they are one by certain people on the lunatic fringes of the left. Even if he's a serial rapist.
This is obviously untenable. And insisting on this ludicrous position is precisely why the current backlash against trans people is happening.
As I've also said in these comments, if a genuine effort had been made to differentiate the very small percentage of genuine transsexuals from the transvestites and bandwagoners and perverts years ago, if the distinction between sex and gender has been acknowledged and made legally clear, I'm confident none of us would be having these conversations today.
You and I agree on the need to differentiate sex as chromosomes and gender as your internal view of what you prefer to present as including wanting to change your body.
Sex is the one that sports is based on and should never have changed. Basically what’s defined in the birth certificate. That should not change unless it was wrong from a chromosome perspective-ie intersex.
Gender is the one that drivers license and passports could use. But why gender needs to be on a passport or drivers license is unclear to me. It’s not like police or the immigration authorities use its meaningfully. That would mitigate the problem trans people face using those documents.
As for bathrooms. As I stated. Nothing is new. Trans/gender woman and malicious men have been entering woman’s bathrooms forever. Nothing about transgender debate will change that. The question is whether a trans gender woman or man can be naked in a bathroom or locker room. The bottom line is obvious, unless you want to create a situation, the answer is no!
As for Sarah McBride, seriously?????? SHE looks like a man? You certainly have a view of how genders align with the terms woman and man that I don’t. From my perspective SHE’d a woman. No questions.
Bottom line, your whole position ignores rationale perspective. It’s a red herring. You’re contributing to the war versus thinking thoughtfully!
“ Nothing is new. Trans/gender woman and malicious men have been entering woman’s bathrooms forever. Nothing about transgender debate will change that.”
No, this is not true.
What has changed is that women no longer have any grounds to object when they discover a man in their bathroom/changing room. I can cite several cases, off the top of my head, of women being penalised for pointing out that an unambiguous man was in their private spaces.
Also, employees are no longer willing or incentivised to be proactive if they find a man in a women’s space. Again, the employee is more likely to be penalised or fired than rewarded for protecting women’s spaces.
And the companies are doing this, for the most part, because they’re afraid of being taken to court for discrimination if they admit they can tell the difference between a man and a woman.
This is the same fear that has led to things like male rapists being housed in women’s prison.
You have a frustrating habit of assuming that you are up to date on issues despite clearly not paying much attention to them or giving them much thought. And then you accuse me and others of not “thinking thoughtfully” when we’re simply more informed than you are.
If you learned to approach conversations with just a shred of humility instead of proclaiming people are “missing the point,” if you recognised that it’s often better to ask questions rather than make ill-informed declarations that you're wrong about, you’d find conversations went a lot smoother for you and would be a lot less annoying for others.
I can't speak for all men but I've been in the men's WC when women-women and trans-women were present as I mentioned in my comment. In and out of the military I've been in nude spaces often enough that the statistical probability of some of the men being in there being gay is likely. That never bothered me. Nobody tried to sodomize me if I dropped the soap.
Gaydar must not be a real thing. Especially when I was younger I have been unambiguously propositioned by men. Not in the shower. I didn't want to punch anyone in the face or even put them verbally on blast. Not interested is sufficient. No different from a woman declining gracefully. Sexual orientation is not a denial of your gender (sex). Bring out of the closet is fine but I didn't understand making it an identity.
No doubt there will be lesbians in female nude spaces. I'm not a woman and can't speak for them but I suspect that they view lesbians who are sexually attracted to them and trans-women who may or may not be a threat differently. The visible penis thing.
Just my opinion of course. I was not at a men's meeting where a spokesman was selected.
As the “trans” cult loses support, as detransitioners get more publicity, it is becoming more openly violent snd murderous. They shouldn’t be allowed on planes.
By the way, the “real ones” have Gender Identity Disorder, not “gender dysphoria.” The former appears around age 4-6 and is lifelong; the latter appears shortly after getting on social media and most outgrow it in a few years.
But by then many have destroyed their health with hormones and their bodies with surgery. GD has no diagnostic criteria past self-declaration and is closely linked with other psychiatric disorders.
I never understood the anger at males who view femininity as worth emulating. I do have empathy for women who due to sexual assault have a general anxiety reaction to males. Maybe us non traumatized cis females can escort trans women in the men’s room for their safety? Trust me, ladies, a guy standing at a urinal is in no position to do anything other than pee on his own feet.
“I never understood the anger at males who view femininity as worth emulating.”
I don’t think the anger is so much at men “emulating femininity,” (although some women understandably feel disrespected by people like Kayla Limieux and Dylan Mulvaney in the way that many black people feel disrespected by blackface), I think the anger is about men who try to appropriate the category of woman through manipulation and intimidation to such a degree that the very word “woman” becomes effectively meaningless.
As I describe in the article, we’re a long way past hapless men who like dresses wanting a place to pee.
To the extent that you are supporting women who “choose the bear” I commend and thank you. I think you are likely correct generally on proportions of sexual abuse, although keep in mind females abusing males is sometimes not “counted” as abuse at all.
Look, trans stuff is weird. Our society has simply not developed a way to deal with folks who don’t fit the cultural assumptions. This is hard on everybody. I just wish people would at least try to wrestle with it in good faith, as I believe Chappelle attempted, rather than go on full Rowling attack mode.
I think you bring up many excellent examples of where a woman may want privacy from strange people. I don’t think anyone, male or female, should be present in a rape victim’s changing room.
I also think it is a sad mistake to think you or your child is safe from sexual abuse because the provider or caretaker is female.
However, I do respect that people have different experiences and views, and I agree that threats and abuse are unacceptable under any circumstance.
"I also think it is a sad mistake to think you or your child is safe from sexual abuse because the provider or caretaker is female."
This is an oversimplification of the issue.
Men are the perpetrators of something like 98% of sexual assault. Women are the victims around 92% of the time.
So while I don't think any even vaguely serious person is claiming that you're guaranteed to be safe from sexual abuse if your caretaker is female, it is extremely obvious that if you're a woman trying to minimise your risk of sexual assault (as presumably all women and men are), you should minimise your contact with men in situations where you're vulnerable.
Add to that differentials in average strength, sexual aggression, and the way our genitalia work, and it becomes even clearer.
I'm a man. I know that I pose no threat to women. But I'm not even remotely offended by the fact that many women would rather not be in certain situations alone with me if I were a stranger to them. I'm genuinely baffled by how this isn't obvious to 100% of people.
I will agree there is quite a bit of intemperance on both sides of this issue. I suppose my real issue is fighting over artificial gender constructs. I am 100% female but, just like Dylan Mulvany, I did not shoot out of my mother’s womb in mascara and high heels. I also share restrooms, both at home and at work, with males, to which I do not bat an eyelash. The controversy is simply baffling to me.
"I also share restrooms, both at home and at work, with males, to which I do not bat an eyelash"
There is an obvious difference between single use restrooms as you might find at home and a bathroom in a club or a gym, say, no? And obviously you trust the men in your home in a way you presumably don't trust strangers.
But maybe that's not true for you. Maybe your personal boundaries don't extend from ever wanting or needing privacy from strange men in public.
So the question is, is it reasonable that many women DO want that privacy in a changing room or a hospital or a rape crisis centre?
Is it reasonable for a woman with a disabled, non-verbal child to want to ensure that her child only receives intimate care from another woman? Or for a woman who needs life-saving surgery to request that only women provide intimate care for her without having her surgery cancelled out of spite?
Is it reasonable for a woman who has been raped by a man to refuse to refer to her rapist as "she" in court? Is it reasonable for her to want to recover in a space where she knows she won't encounter men?
I think it absolutely is. And I think they should be able to get it without being demonised or threatened. Don't you?
There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
Exactly this. This issue would never have reached this level of toxicity if some basic, common sense efforts were made to deal with the fetishists and the predators.
Sadly, after years of abuse and attacks, there are a lot of people who have lost all interest in differentiating. And I can’t blame them.
Trans activism has done immeasurable damage to the trans community and even the LGB community as a whole.
GD or not, males stay out.
Women and girls aren’t emotional support animals for deluded males.
It’s not who passes for a woman… it’s not that some restrooms have men and women in. Those particular restrooms the women understand the deal. It’s men in women’s restrooms. Because if that is legalised across the board, then it’s exponentially a problem… because some men will take advantage of those rules, as some men have done in women’s prisons, to the point of rape and impregnating a woman.
If I’m walking behind a woman at night, I make a point of crossing the road because I know there is a thought in her head, that I wouldn’t have, if she were walking behind me.
That she might be at risk of harm.
Some people answer that with ‘well, we can all be at risk of harm at some point’ to which I say, imagine hearing a noise on the stairs as you’re trying to sleep…. It’s dark…. You get up cautiously and go look but as your hand reaches the handle of the door,
the door bursts open and a figure pushes you to the ground.
You’re told to be quiet.
He has a knife. Someone else is rifling through the drawers.
They leave. It could have been worse.
Now, go to bed the next night.
Tell me you’re gonna sleep like a baby.
Tonight, it just might be worse.
And on. And on.
You’ve entered the world of what might happen. And you’re on your guard in a way you weren’t the night before it happened.
Always.
This shit is ok when it’s over there, way over there… not in our jurisdiction…. But we always see a little bit more when we live it a little.
And for men not to get that,
where women are concerned,
Is kinda strange to me, and a touch sad.
It’s okay Mike, Frank’s beleaguered wife agrees with him, supposedly.
Right, Frank?
In real gender dysphoria that has included medical transition, it is unlikely that women would be able to tell the difference. Unless we are going to do XX vs XY tests and give everyone an armband to identify their gender, it is just a physical appearance issue.
It’s not just a physical appearance issue, Frank: “transitioned” males still retain much of their physical advantage, and male pattern violence.
Are armbands needed? Don’t be ridiculous.
Do you know who *always* knows? The male in question.
Why are *you* so eager to let them off the hook, to give them cover, to put women and girls are greater risk?
Your black and white position on this isn't going to win anything. I am sure you have been taking a dump at the airport bathroom with a biological XX person in the stall next to you, and you never noticed or could not tell. Likewise, I am sure females have been doing their business in a bathroom with other XY people and could not tell.
How are you suggesting we police that? What makes you think a real transitioned human like Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner is a threat to women in the bathroom. It seems overly paranoid, or just extreme.
You’re mighty casual with the risks to women, Frank.
What makes you think that Bruce Jenner isn’t? He’s admitted paraphilias involving *his own daughters*, they commonly cluster with others, often more dangerous.
Is it that he’s a hero to you? Deshawn Watson …
Is it that he seems nice? Ted Bundy …
It is *true* that some TIMs pass some of the time. And even that a few pass most of the time.
That doesn’t excuse your desire to extend a privilege to males in general (or at all).
Just as you ask how I’d “police” it, I ask you: are there going to be “passing police”?
How are women to know which TIMs have been certified as passing, or “safe”, and which haven’t?
The only answer is:
Hold all males accountable to the same rules. No XY in XX.
Enforce the laws we have, instead of excusing some subset of males that you (and if not you, who?) thinks women should be forced to accept in their private spaces.
And stop telling women what and who they should accept from males. Is that a clear enough response for you, Frank?
No, MEN can't tell the difference. Women can tell the difference every single time. Recognising the difference between male and female is an evolutionary survival trait women have relied on for all of time. Even if there's a double take, that double take happens for a reason: because on the deepest level, women know when they are in the presence of a male, regardless the modifications.
LOL. Okay Karen. Thanks for womansplaining that to me.
You're welcome. Learn something.
The problem is the never-ending entitlement of men to define women's boundaries for them.
You’re a moron
Well the situation is the same reversed. Any XX person that transitions medically to a male identity would be able to use the men's restroom.
I think the more recent never-ending general demonstrated entitlement is that women have no boundaries, refuse to have anyone else set any boundaries for them, but then also behave as Karens that can tell everyone else how they must live their lives.
The situation is not the same reversed you colossal buffoon.
Women, even on post pubertal T, do not gain the same physical advantage as males who go through puberty do.
JFC Frank.
“My wife agrees with me”
You’re probably such a nightmare when she doesn’t that she just strokes your ego.
Listen to JW
Read Kathleen Stock, Emma Hilton, and myriad others who’ve put in the work that you so breezily assume you’ve worked out all by your cognitively unimpressive lonesome.
Stop smelling your farts, Frank, you’re delusional from methane poisoning.
Alright man, that’s enough. Disagreement is welcome here, abuse is not.
Frank and others have tried several times to be reasonable and respectful. If you can’t express yourself more productively than screeching at people I’m going to ban you.
Have at it man.
Your hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness is already being picked up by bigger accounts, and I’ve not even started to go to work on you both.
Feel free to walk back your respective claims of superior understanding anytime, and listen to what’s been said.
Or dig deeper.
The choice is yours: I’d prefer you learn something the easy way, but I’m fully prepared to get it through to you the hard way.
Neither I, nor anybody else, can learn from someone who is “not here to persuade, but to “shame.”
All you’ve been doing here is indulging your ego. It’s painfully obvious that nothing you’re saying, and certainly not the way you’re saying it, will persuade or edify anybody. Nor is it meant to. It’s just you flattering yourself for an imagined audience.
Again, disagreement is welcome here, and if you feel you have something valuable to share (like that research on single use spaces), I’m sure many people would be glad to hear it.
But if all you want to do is grandstand and abuse people and make silly little threats about “the hard way” (believe me when I say you don’t even begin to intimidate me), then yes, you’ll have to do it elsewhere.
It's men's history-long 'redefining' of female boundaries with violence and force that is the point here. Go elsewhere for your bizarre little opportunistic wobble about 'Karens.' Jesus.
Boom! There it is, right there:
"And this trick, for the record, is one that every man who decided to ignore a woman saying 'no' has to pull."
and
"Because the entire reason women's spaces exist is to offer women privacy and protection from men who think like this."
Huge plus one. Really enjoyed this article.
My advice to men who think they are women. If you think that, there are a few things that you need to understand. First of all is that you are still a man because you can't change your biological sex. It's okay to dress any way you wish and to adopt any superficial, stereotypical attributes of women that you desire. Live your life. No one should care, I certainly don't. However, because women are entitled to be treated fairly and to enjoy privacy from men there are certain things that are prohibited to you and me because we are men. You can't compete against women in most sports because it would be unfair. You can't go into women's private places like restrooms and locker rooms because that would make them feel unsafe. Finally, if you are a criminal you certainly can't be imprisoned with women.
That's it, just like me.
Hi Steve! This is one of the first essays of yours I’ve read in at least a year after dropping off the face of the internet. It’s been a very interesting and disturbing one. I left twitter, TikTok, etc. a long time ago so I miss a lot of these happenings. As someone who’s quite present in my local queer and trans communities, I was absolutely horrified reading the many posts and articles you linked. It definitely confirmed my decision to stay off those circles of the internet, but also gave me a lot of insight into the fear of and opposition to trans people. The behavior you outlined in this article is genuinely abhorrent and also a very accurate representation of the fears I hear cis people expressing. Like exactly. And it was very interesting because this kind of stuff would be so quickly condemned in my personal social circles, so I never understood where all these fears were coming from. I’d like to think that the majority of real trans communities are the same and that the crazies flock to X, but I can’t be sure. I have a question though! At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise? I’m curious!
"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrified reaction from the woman in the bathroom because they look like women. Right now, and for many years, there have been trans women using female spaces without causing any problems.
The problem is, the question of whether one passes is VERY subjective. Especially in today's insane climate. There's a whole echo chamber on social media built around convincing people who very clearly don't pass at all that they're Gal Gadot. Plus, there's the whole "trans women don't owe you femininity" wing of trans activism that claims that anybody, even a bearded rugby player with hairy shovels for hands becomes a woman the instant they say they identify as one.
But yeah, the more I think about it, maybe the problem is the whole concept of "passing."
Because the question isn't what you can fool people into believing, the question is what is actually true. Trans women are men who wish to be perceived as women. That's absolutely fine. 95% of the time the way you're perceived is all that really matters. But I think it's a huge mistake to think it's cruel or "transphobic" if there are times when they have to defer to their biology.
So my preferred solution, which some public spaces are already adopting, is to make men's toilets gender-neutral spaces where it's normal to see all "genders" using them, and leave female spaces for females.
Who knows, in a few generations, maybe this would lead to a world where it becomes so normal to see male- and female-presenting people in a single restroom that the concept of gendered spaces fades away on its own. But the testing ground for that should be male spaces, where there is no increased risk caused by mixing. Not female spaces.
No maybe, Steve.
Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
This makes perfect sense. While I do understand that this may create fear among trans men of violence in male spaces, why should women be the ones to accommodate what trans men think they need?
But the follow on would be what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?
“ what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?”
Just to be clear, I presume you’re meaning trans identifying man here? Not what most people mean when they say trans man?
If so, I’d be a little surprised I guess, but no big deal. Even if this person passed fully as female, I’d be maybe minimally uncomfortable, but that discomfort wouldn’t come with any fear that they’d hurt me or do anything inappropriate.
It’s funny, one of the Reddit posts I saw while researching this was a trans woman raging because his university had designated the men’s as the “inclusive” “all-gender” bathroom and had left the women’s for women.
He had an option, everything was fine, but he could no longer justify invading the women’s.
I’m not here to persuade you. I’m here to shame you.
If you had an ounce of intellectual integrity, or curiosity, or anything but male pattern hubris (like I often have), you’d consider the possibility that the conclusion you’ve reached is flawed.
Read the fucking philosopher’s post.
Engage with her instead of angry old me.
But seriously, open yourself up to the possibility that perhaps she might have considered the nuances even more deeply than you have, and might bring you some insights that you seem lacking from your male pov.
Get. Over. Yourself.
You’ll end up a better man as a result, and a better ally.
I can’t figure out what the argument is
"I’m not here to persuade you. I’m here to shame you."
😅 Sadly, I think he's been pretty clear that his motivations aren't about productive conversation or change but self aggrandisement.
Reminds me of talking to the white saviours of the anti-racist movement. It's my first encounter with the TERF variant.
Tf is going on 😭
Steve is going to get his hypocritical ass handed to him shortly.
That’s WTF is going on Theo.
Read for fucking comprehension man.
“Steve is going to get his hypocritical ass handed to him shortly.”
Whenever you’re ready. I’m literally quaking.
Steve, will you ever respond to my repeated question about how “mooting an issue” (which you admit is impossible anyway) can be read as anything but pontificating to women?
I’ve already responded to it several times. The fact that this doesn’t appear to satisfy you is of literally no concern to me I’m afraid.
I’ll wait patiently to have my “hypocritical ass handed to me” as punishment.
Speaking of which, weren’t you all supposed to be laughing at me by now? What happened?
Are you not as important as you thought? Or did you figure out that the only person who seemed to have trouble understanding the very simple hypothetical I presented is you?
Respectfully, I would ask you not to use cis, we are women and don't need a prefix. Thanks 😊
Also, after looking back at my comment, I don’t specifically refer to women at all in it. So I’m unsure what term you would have preferred I use there. Non-trans-people? That’s what cis means.
Just woman will do 😊
I wasn’t talking about women specifically though, just people who aren’t trans in general?
People who aren't trans are men and women.
I’m having a hard time following your train of thought here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m working off of a couple assumptions based on your post history. You believe that sex determines your gender, and thus that trans women are actually men and vice versa for trans men. Wouldn’t trans people also fall under the category of “men and women” in that case? If gender is binary and can’t be changed, everyone is either a man or a woman. So how are those two categories helpful for distinguishing trans people from people who are not trans? This is why I find cis to be a useful term.
Hi! I am actually a fellow (almost) woman and while I understand where you’re coming from, cis isn’t a derogatory word nor a prefix. It’s just an adjective people use for clarity when trans people are involved in the discussion. It comes from the Latin preposition meaning “on this side of” as opposed to trans which is “the other side of”. The word is not meant to degrade your womanhood any more than adjectives like “white” or “brunette” would. Although I apologize if it’s been used that way towards you in the past. People can be shitty.
People object to "cis" for at least two reasons:
First, it assumes that people are male or female because of their gender identity rather than their biological sex. For people who believe that biological sex is real and that acknowledging it is important for purposes of rights, safeguarding and clear communication, using "cis" is therefore a loaded term.
Second, while I'd say that many people who espouse gender identity ideology (by which I mean the belief that we are male or female because of gender identity rather than sex) don't wish to reify sex stereotypes, in practice that tends to be what gender identity boils down to. Eg a little boy will play with dolls or want to wear dresses; this is taken as proof he is "really" a girl. Stereotypes limit both men and women but they tend to be more harmful for women and girls. To call a woman "cis" is therefore taken to mean that she identifies with the stereotypes associated with her sex, stereotypes many women find degrading.
In your explanation of the term you say it just means "this side of" - can you expand on this? This side of what?
So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a permanent, biological trait. Things like chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, male vs female etc are part of sex.
Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex. This does not mean that gender is not real, that argument is silly and confusing imo. Gender is a complex series of learned behaviors and mannerisms that we replicate over generations. People sometimes object to this saying that it boils gender down to stereotypes, but that’s kind of what we’re addressing when we say gender isn’t binary. One does not have to conform to all gendered behaviors to be a woman, man, etc. Some people feel the need to create additional labels across that spectrum, but that’s not mandatory.
In summary of this point, people are arguing that gender identity determines gender. Not that it determines sex. And if they are arguing it determines sex they’re being silly and are factually incorrect.
Second, you gave an example of “gender ideology”, that a young boy will play with dolls and wear dresses and people will say he is really a girl. Now, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. So I will not deny that someone out there believes something like that, nor that you’ve witnessed someone say something similar.
However, it’s important to note that (and this is coming from someone who knows dozens of real life trans people and even more people who support them) almost nobody actually believes that. Like I have really, truly, never met a single person, trans or otherwise, who would look at a boy playing with dolls and say he is a girl. Again not denying that you’ve seen it. But the internet amplifies rage inducing opinions and it’s important to keep that in mind.
Regarding your point about stereotypes, I agree they are harmful. But when people say “cis” to refer to people, we’ll use women as an example, they are not labeling that woman as a “stereotypical girly girl” and saying that is what defines her womanhood. They are saying that the woman was born as a female and is comfortable with the gender that comes as the default for it in our society. I know plenty of cis women who are not particularly feminine.
Cis = someone who identifies with their gender assigned at birth. This is most people, so the adjective cis is rarely needed unless we’re discussing trans people, in which case it’s a helpful distinction.
So I was explaining the linguistic origin of the term. It’s a Latin preposition that means “this side of”, as I said. Some other examples of English prepositions: Around, across, within, between, beyond, despite, etc.
These words don’t mean anything on their own and cis is especially confusing since it’s Latin.
To answer your question directly. Cis can mean on this side of anything. When referring to people who are not trans, the original term is actually “cisgender”. It was later shortened to cis in certain contexts for convenience.
The terms cis and trans can also be found in chemistry and cellular biology. We have record of them being used to describe gender and or sexuality dating back to over a century ago.
"Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex."
I think this is actually the sticking point for many people, myself included.
I've yet to see how "gender," as it's used by some members of the trans community, is anything more than, the collection of stereotypical male/female behaviours and expectations that appeals to a particular individual.
And by this definition, it seems obvious that there are as many genders as there are people. So while, yes, those stereotypical behaviours and expectations are socially constructed, we still see, in every single person, a different constellation of those stereotypes. And, indeed, we see many women who defy those stereotypes in various ways while still being women.
I've written about this here. https://commentary.steveqj.com/p/trans-women-are-not-women-and-thats
p.s. On "almost nobody believing" that a boy who plays with plays with dolls is really a girl, I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people making arguments exactly like this.
The article I've just linked to has a few. Here's trans charity Mermaids showing off training materials that literally presents gender on a continuum from G.I Joe to Barbie (https://x.com/steevqj/status/1755353186687180906?s=20). Trans reddit is filled with people explaining that they knew they were trans as children because they liked playing with dolls or wearing their mother's makeup.
It's always difficult to get a true sense of how prevalent a certain attitude is within a group. I try to be very careful about painting in broad strokes. But I think the viewpoint is more common than you're painting it here.
“nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.”
This just isn't true. Gender recognition certificates change a record of someone being male to being female, or vice versa. The whole problem of males in women's sports and in women's spaces rests on the claim that these people are now, for all practical purposes, the opposite sex to the one they were born.
The Sandie Peggie case in Scotland involves a nurse who was suspended for objecting to a male person in the female changing room. In the witness box this male person - a medical doctor - claimed to be biologically female. None of the NHS witnesses defending the treatment of Peggie will admit that Upton is male.
Gender identity is a bait and switch. We are asked to accept that a male person is female but as that is self-evidently untrue, a middle step is fabricated - we are asked to accept him not as female, but as a woman (what does “woman” mean? Insert circular definition). He then claims the right to spaces and resources reserved for female people. Alan Sokal has gone into more detail about the use of the word woman and how in practical terms it still means adult human female.
https://thecritic.co.uk/on-the-deceptive-use-of-words/
Thank you. Although it isn't usually a derogatory word, it has been hijacked by the 'trans' community as a slur.
My hackles just rise when I see it 🤣
Is voyeurism not a crime, Steve?
Every time such a male enters a female private space …
Saying things like this does not make you persuasive. It just makes you appear ignorant of the facts.
It is not, generally speaking, illegal for a man to enter a female space. In fact, given the current ridiculous state of the law, it could be considered discriminatory to prevent a man from entering a female space. We've seen this play out several times with women being ignored or even penalised when they object to men in gym changing rooms and public bathrooms.
It seems you think it's valiant to be absolutist and to brook no nuance, but this approach causes more problems than it solves. We obviously agree on the importance and value of female-only spaces. But you're not going to solve this problem by yelling at it or high-horsing everyone who acknowledges a little more nuance than you do.
Lord god almighty what has transpired while I was asleep
Great stuff Steve, really well done. Have you heard of “She’s Not Your Trauma/Therapy”?It’s essentially a framework for domestic violence work. The idea being that a man suffering from mental health issues cannot, and should not, use this as an excuse for being abusive towards his female intimate partner.
I absolutely agree with the idea. Unfortunately it gets tricky when confronting the ‘trans’ issue. The theory is part of a broader framework of ‘Intersectional Feminism’ (so I’m told), so if a man says he is a woman, then he should be treated as such.
The reason your article resonated with me is that during a recent conversation, I took the ‘side’ of JK Rowling stating that I believed people are attributing beliefs to her that she doesn’t have (she has said many times that she isn’t trans phobic). She simply believes (as I do) that ‘transgender’ men do not belong in women’s prisons/bathrooms/rape crises centres etc.
A rapist who says he is a woman just before sentencing should not be sent to a women’s prison. If there is any doubt about his gender, maybe seek the advice of his victims.
Anyway, the person I was discussing this with had a unique take, along the lines of the theories I mentioned earlier.
They believed that, as JK Rowling was herself a victim of domestic abuse, her current stance was simply Ms Rowling working through her own trauma as a victim by placing trans people “in danger”.
Strange times.
I have one objection.
I prefer Brunello and Barolo.
🥂
In the early 70s I was a contractor on an Airforce base. At that time female airmen were being assigned to clean both women's and men's WC. They didn't shut them down and a female airman was cleaning urinals while I was using one. I've stood next to a beautiful skirt raised Thai kathoey at urinals in the men's room in Bangkok. In Thailand and China there have been women cleaning the men's room with me in it. In Xi'an a big restroom access walked into the urinal area. Women turned left right away to go to the lady's women only throne room, men walked past them to the men's thrones. In none of those cases did I feel threatened or even uncomfortable.
That is very different from nude spaces like women's shower and changing rooms at a gym. If you have an exposed penis, you don't belong there because I have no doubt that that would be uncomfortable at the very least for women also in a state of nudity. The problem with transwomen is that women have no way of knowing if someone has true gender dysphoria and are not likely to be a threat or they are attention seekers or worse.
“That is very different from nude spaces like women's shower and changing rooms at a gym.”
🎯
One of the most frequent mistakes I see people making on this issue is acting as if all private spaces are the same or serve the same function.
It seems to me that this debate (and several of the other debates over gendered spaces) are all downstream of a major issue: that women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing. Unfortunately, it's also a thorny one. But a woman in the situation of "unknown person in fenced space" isn't doing gender studies; she's just had her IFF tripped, and this mysterious individual who apparently does NOT respect boundaries wants to talk gender politics?
And bringing in FtMs just complicates things further. How comfortable are cis women sharing a restroom with them?
I do think society is becoming more gender-neutral, which will help.
"women feel like men (categorically) are a threat to them. THAT problem needs addressing."
Yes, this is clearly the underlying issue, but I don't see it going away any time soon. Something like 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. 92% of it against women. Never mind general creepiness and inappropriate, stalker-ish behaviour.
Women's spaces are an imperfect solution to this problem. But they are a solution. Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.
Good luck with that Steve.
We men are stronger, faster, and more violent: T is a hell of a molecule.
Perhaps you should refrain from pontificating about what women should or will accept, and listen instead to their voices.
"Perhaps you should refrain from pontificating about what women should or will accept, and listen instead to their voices."
Maybe you shouldn't be in such a hurry to jump on a high horse that you fail to notice I haven't pontificated about anything.
Do you recognize this, Steve?
“Once we get to a point where women don't have to fear men behaving inappropriately/violently, the question of women's spaces will be moot.”
Yeah, maybe it’ll be moot to *you*.
Likely not for any real world females who are actually familiar with the realities of male violence and living with the oppressive and omnipresent male gaze.
Seriously dude, get over yourself. And listen.
I’d be happy to point you toward many women who will take the time to make sure that you understand fully.
And in the meantime, please stop speaking for such women. You seem to have a good mind and the right motivation — don’t let yourself be part of the problem just because you’re too proud to admit a fault or failure.
"Yeah, maybe it’ll be moot to *you*."
Do you think the question of whether lesbians should share a changing room with straight women is moot? How about whether black women should share a bathroom with white women? Or maybe whether tall women should share spaces with short women?
To be clear, in the first two cases, there was spirited debate about these distinctions. But that debate is moot today. IF we one day arrive at a point where men pose no threat to women, the question will be equally moot. Note the IF.
I state clearly that we're a long way from that point. I personally don't believe we'll ever reach it. But recognising that if men no longer pose a threat to women, conversations about mitigating the threat men pose to women are moot, is not "pontificating." It is extremely rudimentary logic.
Also, I'm not attempting to speak for "women" because "women" are not a monolith who all think the same thing. I could just as easily point you to many women who welcome the abolition of sex segregation and think any man who declares himself a woman should immediately be granted unlimited access to women's spaces.
I disagree with those women.
So I've thought very carefully, spent a great deal of time listening to a variety of perspectives, and have come to my own conclusions.
That's what caring about an issue requires you to do.
Yeah, you’re a huge brained intellectual, Steve.
You got one thing right above: “extremely rudimentary logic”
JFC you’re an ass.
But don’t listen to me. I’m just a random dude on your socials.
Maybe read what Doc Stock @kathleenstock — a professional philosopher — has to say about your pipe dream …
https://open.substack.com/pub/kathleenstock/p/lets-abolish-the-dream-of-gender?r=4hy79y&utm_medium=ios
If you want to be an ally of women, you need to get over yourself. If you simply want to be seen by some as an ally, so you can get social approval, while still damaging the cause you purport to support, keep doing what you’re doing.
Fucking moron.
The vast majority of men are honorable, but there’s no way to read intentions at first glance. The old line about “all men are rapists” is dead wrong, but given the size differential, women just have to be careful, unfortunately.
Women 'feel' like men are a threat to them? Dear God. Read the Dominic Pelicot case as a starting point. Read stats on voyeurism in women's toilets, the images uploaded to the net, as a growing category of porn. Don't top there. Men ARE a threat to women. Not all men but god knows enough that no woman gets to feel safe.
We can take care of all the "nuance" - or nonsense - by relieving ourselves of the notion that "trans" is a thing. FFS this is tiresome.
Dick Room. Pussy Room. Now the problem is yours.
Your article misses the point entirely.
Let's take Sarah McBride as an example.
The only reason Sarah McBride became an issue is because SHE publicly identified as a trans-woman. Otherwise, no one would ever have questioned HER walking into a woman's bathroom. Why would they. SHE looks like a very normal woman.
If SHE walks into a men's bathroom, I as a man would immediately question why SHE is in there. So would you if you are honest.
Trans-woman have been using woman's bathrooms for years. The only reason you are writing your article is because you now are much more aware of their existence.
This issue is not trans-woman - people who truly live as a woman and have no malicious intent on assaulting a woman in any way.
The issue is men who have malicious intent to access woman's spaces. Guess what? This has also been going on for years. How would you distinguish a man who is maliciously dressed like Sarah McBride as being a man?
The question comes down to two things for those who think this through:
a. If you're a trans-woman that has not had gender affirming surgery, don't expose yourself in woman's only areas.
b. If a person complains about an abuse in a woman's bathroom, if you turn out to be sexually a man, you're going to have to work much harder to defend yourself.
You and I have had conversations about me being naked in men's spaces. You are not comfortable with nudity. I assume you're even less comfortable if you know me given you know I'm gay. Should a gay man be able to be in men's spaces naked? Should a lesbian be able to be in woman's spaces naked? I can push this to the extreme and state why is being naked such a big deal in the divided states? Seriously, it's just a body. Any sexuality you attribute to seeing a naked body is about you not the person being naked. But that's another whole discussion.
Participation in sports is an entirely different issue. That's also another discussion.
Whether a school keeps minors preferred pronouns from their parents is an entirely different issues. Also another discussion.
Gender Dysphoria is real. Trans people have always existed. Instead of irrational extreme positions by the extreme left and extreme right, sorting out making them feel included is not really that challenging. Its only challenging because of extreme politics.
Trans people and especially trans-woman would be best served by making peace with JK Rowling. I'm confident she would do everything in her power to make them feel comfortable if they acknowledged that a cis-woman does not necessarily need to support any man calling themselves a woman is no different than they are. That's the first step toward a rationale discussion.
"Your article misses the point entirely."
Ah, back on form I see.
Firstly, you and I appear to have differing opinions on what a "totally normal woman" looks like. Sarah McBride looks to me like a man dressed as a woman.
But yes, I'm fully aware that many trans women wouldn't have provoked the reaction I did in that bathroom. I've already said that elsewhere in the comments here. I also believe that gender dysphoria is real. I've never said otherwise. But a man with gender dysphoria remains a man. And as there's no reliable or meaningful field test for gender dysphoria, we've ended up in this ridiculous and dangerous situation where any man who claims to "feel like a woman" is immediately told they are one by certain people on the lunatic fringes of the left. Even if he's a serial rapist.
This is obviously untenable. And insisting on this ludicrous position is precisely why the current backlash against trans people is happening.
As I've also said in these comments, if a genuine effort had been made to differentiate the very small percentage of genuine transsexuals from the transvestites and bandwagoners and perverts years ago, if the distinction between sex and gender has been acknowledged and made legally clear, I'm confident none of us would be having these conversations today.
You and I agree on the need to differentiate sex as chromosomes and gender as your internal view of what you prefer to present as including wanting to change your body.
Sex is the one that sports is based on and should never have changed. Basically what’s defined in the birth certificate. That should not change unless it was wrong from a chromosome perspective-ie intersex.
Gender is the one that drivers license and passports could use. But why gender needs to be on a passport or drivers license is unclear to me. It’s not like police or the immigration authorities use its meaningfully. That would mitigate the problem trans people face using those documents.
As for bathrooms. As I stated. Nothing is new. Trans/gender woman and malicious men have been entering woman’s bathrooms forever. Nothing about transgender debate will change that. The question is whether a trans gender woman or man can be naked in a bathroom or locker room. The bottom line is obvious, unless you want to create a situation, the answer is no!
As for Sarah McBride, seriously?????? SHE looks like a man? You certainly have a view of how genders align with the terms woman and man that I don’t. From my perspective SHE’d a woman. No questions.
Bottom line, your whole position ignores rationale perspective. It’s a red herring. You’re contributing to the war versus thinking thoughtfully!
“ Nothing is new. Trans/gender woman and malicious men have been entering woman’s bathrooms forever. Nothing about transgender debate will change that.”
No, this is not true.
What has changed is that women no longer have any grounds to object when they discover a man in their bathroom/changing room. I can cite several cases, off the top of my head, of women being penalised for pointing out that an unambiguous man was in their private spaces.
Also, employees are no longer willing or incentivised to be proactive if they find a man in a women’s space. Again, the employee is more likely to be penalised or fired than rewarded for protecting women’s spaces.
And the companies are doing this, for the most part, because they’re afraid of being taken to court for discrimination if they admit they can tell the difference between a man and a woman.
This is the same fear that has led to things like male rapists being housed in women’s prison.
You have a frustrating habit of assuming that you are up to date on issues despite clearly not paying much attention to them or giving them much thought. And then you accuse me and others of not “thinking thoughtfully” when we’re simply more informed than you are.
If you learned to approach conversations with just a shred of humility instead of proclaiming people are “missing the point,” if you recognised that it’s often better to ask questions rather than make ill-informed declarations that you're wrong about, you’d find conversations went a lot smoother for you and would be a lot less annoying for others.
Haha, 'Sarah' McBride looks like a man because he is.
I can't speak for all men but I've been in the men's WC when women-women and trans-women were present as I mentioned in my comment. In and out of the military I've been in nude spaces often enough that the statistical probability of some of the men being in there being gay is likely. That never bothered me. Nobody tried to sodomize me if I dropped the soap.
Gaydar must not be a real thing. Especially when I was younger I have been unambiguously propositioned by men. Not in the shower. I didn't want to punch anyone in the face or even put them verbally on blast. Not interested is sufficient. No different from a woman declining gracefully. Sexual orientation is not a denial of your gender (sex). Bring out of the closet is fine but I didn't understand making it an identity.
No doubt there will be lesbians in female nude spaces. I'm not a woman and can't speak for them but I suspect that they view lesbians who are sexually attracted to them and trans-women who may or may not be a threat differently. The visible penis thing.
Just my opinion of course. I was not at a men's meeting where a spokesman was selected.
As the “trans” cult loses support, as detransitioners get more publicity, it is becoming more openly violent snd murderous. They shouldn’t be allowed on planes.
By the way, the “real ones” have Gender Identity Disorder, not “gender dysphoria.” The former appears around age 4-6 and is lifelong; the latter appears shortly after getting on social media and most outgrow it in a few years.
But by then many have destroyed their health with hormones and their bodies with surgery. GD has no diagnostic criteria past self-declaration and is closely linked with other psychiatric disorders.
This.
And then the adult trans IDing males seek to retcon reality and justify their depravity by convincing a generation of children to harm themselves.
Really fine people there, as the Burger King once said about his Nazi friends.
I never understood the anger at males who view femininity as worth emulating. I do have empathy for women who due to sexual assault have a general anxiety reaction to males. Maybe us non traumatized cis females can escort trans women in the men’s room for their safety? Trust me, ladies, a guy standing at a urinal is in no position to do anything other than pee on his own feet.
“I never understood the anger at males who view femininity as worth emulating.”
I don’t think the anger is so much at men “emulating femininity,” (although some women understandably feel disrespected by people like Kayla Limieux and Dylan Mulvaney in the way that many black people feel disrespected by blackface), I think the anger is about men who try to appropriate the category of woman through manipulation and intimidation to such a degree that the very word “woman” becomes effectively meaningless.
As I describe in the article, we’re a long way past hapless men who like dresses wanting a place to pee.
To the extent that you are supporting women who “choose the bear” I commend and thank you. I think you are likely correct generally on proportions of sexual abuse, although keep in mind females abusing males is sometimes not “counted” as abuse at all.
Look, trans stuff is weird. Our society has simply not developed a way to deal with folks who don’t fit the cultural assumptions. This is hard on everybody. I just wish people would at least try to wrestle with it in good faith, as I believe Chappelle attempted, rather than go on full Rowling attack mode.
I think you bring up many excellent examples of where a woman may want privacy from strange people. I don’t think anyone, male or female, should be present in a rape victim’s changing room.
I also think it is a sad mistake to think you or your child is safe from sexual abuse because the provider or caretaker is female.
However, I do respect that people have different experiences and views, and I agree that threats and abuse are unacceptable under any circumstance.
"I also think it is a sad mistake to think you or your child is safe from sexual abuse because the provider or caretaker is female."
This is an oversimplification of the issue.
Men are the perpetrators of something like 98% of sexual assault. Women are the victims around 92% of the time.
So while I don't think any even vaguely serious person is claiming that you're guaranteed to be safe from sexual abuse if your caretaker is female, it is extremely obvious that if you're a woman trying to minimise your risk of sexual assault (as presumably all women and men are), you should minimise your contact with men in situations where you're vulnerable.
Add to that differentials in average strength, sexual aggression, and the way our genitalia work, and it becomes even clearer.
I'm a man. I know that I pose no threat to women. But I'm not even remotely offended by the fact that many women would rather not be in certain situations alone with me if I were a stranger to them. I'm genuinely baffled by how this isn't obvious to 100% of people.
I will agree there is quite a bit of intemperance on both sides of this issue. I suppose my real issue is fighting over artificial gender constructs. I am 100% female but, just like Dylan Mulvany, I did not shoot out of my mother’s womb in mascara and high heels. I also share restrooms, both at home and at work, with males, to which I do not bat an eyelash. The controversy is simply baffling to me.
"I also share restrooms, both at home and at work, with males, to which I do not bat an eyelash"
There is an obvious difference between single use restrooms as you might find at home and a bathroom in a club or a gym, say, no? And obviously you trust the men in your home in a way you presumably don't trust strangers.
But maybe that's not true for you. Maybe your personal boundaries don't extend from ever wanting or needing privacy from strange men in public.
So the question is, is it reasonable that many women DO want that privacy in a changing room or a hospital or a rape crisis centre?
Is it reasonable for a woman with a disabled, non-verbal child to want to ensure that her child only receives intimate care from another woman? Or for a woman who needs life-saving surgery to request that only women provide intimate care for her without having her surgery cancelled out of spite?
Is it reasonable for a woman who has been raped by a man to refuse to refer to her rapist as "she" in court? Is it reasonable for her to want to recover in a space where she knows she won't encounter men?
I think it absolutely is. And I think they should be able to get it without being demonised or threatened. Don't you?
I don’t mean to tell anyone how to think, but I’d appreciate some feedback on something I wrote on Substack. Any respectful and meaningful comments that help me understand this issue more clearly is welcome! https://open.substack.com/pub/ndeslattes/p/transgender-care-claim-exploration?r=40kzdt&utm_medium=ios
OMG so tired of tranny. Make the tranny stop!
“Look at my dick and balls in the locker room bigot”