There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
Exactly this. This issue would never have reached this level of toxicity if some basic, common sense efforts were made to deal with the fetishists and the predators.
Sadly, after years of abuse and attacks, there are a lot of people who have lost all interest in differentiating. And I canтАЩt blame them.
Trans activism has done immeasurable damage to the trans community and even the LGB community as a whole.
ItтАЩs not who passes for a womanтАж itтАЩs not that some restrooms have men and women in. In those particular restrooms the women understand the deal. The problem is men in womenтАЩs restrooms as a norm. Because if that is legalised across the board, then itтАЩs an exponential problemтАж because some men will take advantage of those rules, as some men have done in womenтАЩs prisons, to the point of rape and impregnating a woman.
If IтАЩm walking behind a woman at night, I make a point of crossing the road because I know there is a thought in her head, a thought that I wouldnтАЩt have, if the situation was reversed and she was walking behind me.
Namely, that she might be at risk of harm.
Some people answer that with тАШwell, we can all be at risk of harm at some pointтАЩ to which I say, imagine hearing a noise on the stairs as youтАЩre trying to sleepтАж. ItтАЩs darkтАж. You get up cautiously and go look but as your hand reaches the handle of the door,
the door bursts open and a figure pushes you to the ground.
YouтАЩre told to be quiet.
He has a knife. Someone else is rifling through the drawers.
They leave. It could have been worse.
Now, go to bed the next night.
Tell me youтАЩre gonna sleep like a baby.
Tonight, it just might be worse.
And on. And on.
YouтАЩve entered the world of what might happen. And youтАЩre on your guard in a way you werenтАЩt the night before it happened.
That is a womanтАЩs world.
Always.
This shit is ok when itтАЩs over there, way over thereтАж not in our jurisdictionтАж. But we always see a little bit more when we live it a little.
In real gender dysphoria that has included medical transition, it is unlikely that women would be able to tell the difference. Unless we are going to do XX vs XY tests and give everyone an armband to identify their gender, it is just a physical appearance issue.
No, MEN can't tell the difference. Women can tell the difference every single time. Recognising the difference between male and female is an evolutionary survival trait women have relied on for all of time. Even if there's a double take, that double take happens for a reason: because on the deepest level, women know when they are in the presence of a male, regardless the modifications.
Nothing wrong with womansplaining when a woman is telling you what women actually can do that, apparently, you cannot do and do not understand that women can do. You have made it clear that you do not think women can clock males who larp as females, but evolution has made women very able to do that.
Womansplaining is the process of failing to think critically through a rind of strong emotions, hence womansplaining is irrational and should be rejected and avoided.
That is really not true! If by "medical transition" you mean a man who has had his male genitalia removed, there is no way that at a quick glance a woman (or other man, for that matter) could tell that he no longer has male genitalia (no bulge in his crotch).
None of us realize it when a clothed man has had his genitalia removed due to trauma or disease. If by "medical transition" you mean a man whose breasts have somewhat enlarged due to estrogen he has taken, or has had breast implants,that he is not simply a man with gynecomastia. Some women joke when looking at a man with gynecomastia that "he has bigger boobs than I do!" Because some men do have bigger breasts than women with small breasts.
There are many ways in which men (males!) are anatomically different than women (females!). Relative to their overall body size, men have bigger hands and bigger feet than women is one of the most conspicuous differences. They have Adam's apples which the men who try to pass as women often try to conceal by wearing chokers. Their voices are usually much deeper in pitch. These days hulking 6'4" built-like-a-brick-shithouse men think that they can pass as women if they just wear high heels, long hair wigs and makeup. The males with the best chance of passing are those with small builds who are naturally "effeminate", but they rarely larp as women and so do not try to enter female single-sex spaces.
Evolution has made women very good at instantly knowing whether an adult is male or female. If it is not instantly apparent, it becomes apparent quite quickly, watching how a person behaves: their gait, how men sit with legs apart, the sense of entitlement that they project. Men who larp as women do not realize the many "tells" they have that make women realize they are in fact male.
Have you actually seen very many men who are trying to pass as women? Or is this just an intellectual exercise for you?
...their gait, how they sit with legs apart which girls and women are taught not to do. Men who want to pass as women coach each other on Reddit and elsewhere on the many ways they have to alter their behavior, learned as boys, in order to move and carry themselves more like women. There are many "tells" that males who larp as women do not realize they give that show women they are men and not women.
Wow. How sexist. So a butch female that wears pants and sits with her legs open and has adopted behaviors that project as male would be discriminated on by you as being male.
LOL. Women are magical in that they can tell the real sex of a person by just watching them walk, etc.
Actually many men who donтАЩt think with their dicks when looking at any slightly feminine form can tell the difference. This fully passing тАШthingтАЩ is utter delusion . No male fully passes. How stupid to think otherwise !
Well, I'm a woman and I've known a few men who were very convincing as women. So convincing I didn't realize they were men until they told me. That was unusual even at the time, a long time ago, when what we then called transsexual men (vs. crossdressing men) for the most part wanted very much to pass as women, without a public fuss or any issues with restrooms. Since women's restrooms don't have urinals or open toilet stalls the only barrier to entry is one of appearance. Which is sort of ironic, as more masculine-appearing women routinely get challenged in public restrooms. As I well remember from my short-haired days.
Yeah well since there are numerous kinksters who are in there to record and to whack off, and since these people are also expressive of violence and threats of rape, and also just because public restrooms aren't their house and we don't have to share with strange men: they can stay the fuck out.
Your black and white position on this isn't going to win anything. I am sure you have been taking a dump at the airport bathroom with a biological XX person in the stall next to you, and you never noticed or could not tell. Likewise, I am sure females have been doing their business in a bathroom with other XY people and could not tell.
How are you suggesting we police that? What makes you think a real transitioned human like Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner is a threat to women in the bathroom. It seems overly paranoid, or just extreme.
YouтАЩre mighty casual with the risks to women, Frank.
What makes you think that Bruce Jenner isnтАЩt? HeтАЩs admitted paraphilias involving *his own daughters*, they commonly cluster with others, often more dangerous.
Is it that heтАЩs a hero to you? Deshawn Watson тАж
Is it that he seems nice? Ted Bundy тАж
It is *true* that some TIMs pass some of the time. And even that a few pass most of the time.
That doesnтАЩt excuse your desire to extend a privilege to males in general (or at all).
Just as you ask how IтАЩd тАЬpoliceтАЭ it, I ask you: are there going to be тАЬpassing policeтАЭ?
How are women to know which TIMs have been certified as passing, or тАЬsafeтАЭ, and which havenтАЩt?
The only answer is:
Hold all males accountable to the same rules. No XY in XX.
Enforce the laws we have, instead of excusing some subset of males that you (and if not you, who?) thinks women should be forced to accept in their private spaces.
And stop telling women what and who they should accept from males. Is that a clear enough response for you, Frank?
besides, passing in appearance doesn't make them "safe" it just means they didn't start with a super masculine frame. Not so common, given that boys are often identifiable in the cradle by their shape
It's clear what you believe, and I respect your right to believe it. I just disagree with that being a helpful or useful perspective. I see it as too black-vs-white given the realities of the human condition.
And you really don't answer the question about how your complete restriction on any XY entering a restroom for females gets policed.
Clearly the gestational process of gender development in the womb is fraught with diverse results that include gender dysphoria. In some cases there is genital ambiguity. But even without that, there can be other internal brain development that leads to sex identity dysphoria. And if those people transition, I don't see how restricting them from using a restroom matching their transitioned-to gender is a threat to anyone.
Frankly, I think what we need is construction code that makes all multi-person commercial restrooms unisex without urinals and with floor-to-ceiling lockable-from-the-inside stalls and no door into the restroom.
Frank, youтАЩre every bit of a mansplaining tool as Steve.
Listen to some fucking women.
You donтАЩt see how itтАЩs a threat тАж because
you donтАЩt know wtf youтАЩre talking about.
And you would like to solve this with construction codes: have you read a damn thing about the research and realities of such spaces and how they put women and girls at greater risks than single sex facilities?
YouтАЩre quite the pair, and you caught me on an angry day.
IтАЩm going to show a bunch of folks how callous and hubristic you are too.
тАЬ And you would like to solve this with construction codes: have you read a damn thing about the research and realities of such spaces and how they put women and girls at greater risks than single sex facilities?тАЭ
IтАЩd actually be very interested in seeing this research if you could stop screeching and insulting for long enough to share it.
I listen to my wife of 42 years, and she agrees with me. Keep biological men out of women's restrooms, but not those with diagnosed gender dysphoria that have been medically transitioned. She agrees that the only way to police it is by the appearance of the person.
Like I said, I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Frankly, because I am, it is a bit weird that anyone would fear the sex intentions of a biological male that is medically transitioned to a female identity.
You don't seem to understand the construction code point, but it might be over your head.
Let me try again: it is incorrect to treat DSD or any ambiguous genitalia patient as equivalent in any way to Gender Dysphoria. GD patients have zero physical abnormality or impairment. Whereas a baby with DSD may well have external genitalia that are completely opposite of their sex chromosomes (although this type is sooo extremely rare as to be insignificant). The most common type of DSD is 21-hydroxylase deficiency form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. A boy with this is straight up just a boy. A girl with this IS masculinized to varying extents - and they still know theyтАЩre girls. GD is all in someoneтАЩs mind.
Honestly applied empathy and logic typically lead to the same conclusion as the stats I give elsewhere. Try this...
Imagine living as a woman: 1 in 4 have experienced rape, and 99% sexual aggression to a greater or lesser degree, all the while conscious of an extraordinary strength differential rendering us vulnerable to any one male who tries it on.
Men really seem to struggle to imagine this, so here's a useful analogy...:
You're given a large bag of Maltesers. The vast majority are lovely. But a few of them will make you ill enough to remember the experience for life (these represent abusive experiences stopping just short of attack; we've almost all had these, and many of us remember one when that realisation of our own utter vulnerability hit, and hit hard). Meanwhile, one Malteser in the bag - just one - is cyanide. That would be the violent attacker, whether he's downright evil or mundanely opportunistic. Do you take and eat a Malteser, Frank?
Mixed sex spaces remove women's freedom to mitigate - and get some relief from - the risk we face.
NB. These proportions are reflected in corresponding statistics in various other nations.
You could also look into: research into levels of post-transition male violence and the variety of reasons for transitioning including AGP (on the latter, there are some very good firsthand accounts by medically transitioned transwomen eg. Debbie Hayton).
"And if those people transition, I don't see how restricting them from using a restroom matching their transitioned-to gender is a threat to anyone." I can see how, but only if the data shows it. Numerous studies have analyzed the prevalence of violent crime of transwomen and also of the overall male population. The data on crime and violent crime by transwomen has been tracked since at least 1973, studied within many countries, and then restudied. Data exists! Assuming you know the data exists and that you have examined it, are you suggesting that transwomen exhibit the same threat to women as other women do? Because that would have to be your conclusion from the data in order to make your statement. Have you examined the crime and violence data in regards to transwomen? It is possible to turn "I don't see" into an informed opinion, but 'seeing' might complicate your solidarity with trans-freedom.
Just how it was policed for the last 80 or so years since women were allowed to walk further than the shop because they were finally granted a public toilet for themselves only тАж
Men who are pretending to be women rarely pass as such. Women who pretend to be men, and who have taken enough testosterone, can generally pass more easily. The entire reason why the gender ideologues began experimenting on children is that they believe the males would "get better outcomes" if they don't go through normal male puberty. "Better outcomes" translates as "They would pass better as women." This isn't just my opinion, it is a fact that gender medical professionals are very open about.
Another reality that the gender ideologues are not open about is that men act like men after they have transitioned, they don't act like women. A lot of them are narcissistic and they don't change their entitled, self-centered, pushy personalities after they transition, no matter what body parts they hack off or how much estrogen they use.
You may think that trans identified females pass but as a gay man I can always tell the small manly robotic voiced women .. they have crap facial hair also.. no fooling me
There is no link between how 'true' someone's gender dysphoria is and how well they pass. And no woman knows what's going on in the head of the gender dysphoric man when he walks into the women's toilets. And the vast majority of 'trans women' today still have their male genitals intact.
women cannot tell the difference between a genuine transwoman (man) and a pervert, fetishist or chancer just by looking at them and for this reason, none of them should be able to come into our private spaces. They say they can't use the men's room because they fear being attacked but that's exactly how we women feel every time a male bodied person enters our spaces.
So awesome that you guys are finally reaching that conclusion. My other half still doesnтАЩt get it. I too started out sanguine towards transppl in the wrong loo, but the complete failure to set any boundaries at all is worrying to me. I also agree with Frank that it cuts both ways: if single sex spaces are important for women then there must be at least some single sex spaces that are reserved for men as well.
Well the situation is the same reversed. Any XX person that transitions medically to a male identity would be able to use the men's restroom.
I think the more recent never-ending general demonstrated entitlement is that women have no boundaries, refuse to have anyone else set any boundaries for them, but then also behave as Karens that can tell everyone else how they must live their lives.
The situation is not the same reversed you colossal buffoon.
Women, even on post pubertal T, do not gain the same physical advantage as males who go through puberty do.
JFC Frank.
тАЬMy wife agrees with meтАЭ
YouтАЩre probably such a nightmare when she doesnтАЩt that she just strokes your ego.
Listen to JW
Read Kathleen Stock, Emma Hilton, and myriad others whoтАЩve put in the work that you so breezily assume youтАЩve worked out all by your cognitively unimpressive lonesome.
Stop smelling your farts, Frank, youтАЩre delusional from methane poisoning.
Alright man, thatтАЩs enough. Disagreement is welcome here, abuse is not.
Frank and others have tried several times to be reasonable and respectful. If you canтАЩt express yourself more productively than screeching at people IтАЩm going to ban you.
No, it's not. And if one person had been writing dozens of unhinged comments calling everybody who disagreed with them, however slightly, a Karen, I'd have said the same thing to them.
But I've already overlooked dozens of "Digital Canary's" far more pointed insults. There comes a point where people simply aren't contributing anything but toxicity.
I am quite sure that Frank and other men who comment as he does are "man enough" to take humorous comments like "Stop smelling your farts...you're delusional from methane poisoning."
Me too. In fact Frank messaged me to let me know that he's fine with the occasional idiot with low emotional control.
But as these "humorous comments" contribute nothing to the conversation, are obviously not going to change anybody's mind, and create a degree of toxicity that I think we could all do without (and which some people might reasonably find unpleasant), I'd rather people who can't communicate like grown-ups throw their little tantrums in somebody else's community.
Neither I, nor anybody else, can learn from someone who is тАЬnot here to persuade, but to тАЬshame.тАЭ
All youтАЩve been doing here is indulging your ego. ItтАЩs painfully obvious that nothing youтАЩre saying, and certainly not the way youтАЩre saying it, will persuade or edify anybody. Nor is it meant to. ItтАЩs just you flattering yourself for an imagined audience.
Again, disagreement is welcome here, and if you feel you have something valuable to share (like that research on single use spaces), IтАЩm sure many people would be glad to hear it.
But if all you want to do is grandstand and abuse people and make silly little threats about тАЬthe hard wayтАЭ (believe me when I say you donтАЩt even begin to intimidate me), then yes, youтАЩll have to do it elsewhere.
You know, youтАЩre not the first person to say IтАЩm funny. Glad youтАЩre enjoying yourself.
IтАЩm asking you for the third time for that research, IтАЩd really like to learn. Otherwise, yeah, please share my work with larger accounts. Make sure thousands of new people see my work. What a terrifying threat that is for a content creatorтАжЁЯШЕ
While IтАЩm waiting for sagepub to stop being a pita, are you ever going to actually address your dismissal of your own pontification-related comment, Steve?
You and Steve need to take it outside. I agree with you substantively, Digital Canary. Read what I have written. But there is not point in you and Steve going at it like ping pong.
It's men's history-long 'redefining' of female boundaries with violence and force that is the point here. Go elsewhere for your bizarre little opportunistic wobble about 'Karens.' Jesus.
Whether a man has dysphoria or schizophrenia is irrelevant to women and girls needing their own single-sex spaces. Women and girls are not "support animals" for mentally ill males.
There is real gender dysphoria and there is a fashion fetish. The problems is the inability or lack of interest to separate both and define them as separate.
Exactly this. This issue would never have reached this level of toxicity if some basic, common sense efforts were made to deal with the fetishists and the predators.
Sadly, after years of abuse and attacks, there are a lot of people who have lost all interest in differentiating. And I canтАЩt blame them.
Trans activism has done immeasurable damage to the trans community and even the LGB community as a whole.
GD or not, males stay out.
Women and girls arenтАЩt emotional support animals for deluded males.
ItтАЩs not who passes for a womanтАж itтАЩs not that some restrooms have men and women in. In those particular restrooms the women understand the deal. The problem is men in womenтАЩs restrooms as a norm. Because if that is legalised across the board, then itтАЩs an exponential problemтАж because some men will take advantage of those rules, as some men have done in womenтАЩs prisons, to the point of rape and impregnating a woman.
If IтАЩm walking behind a woman at night, I make a point of crossing the road because I know there is a thought in her head, a thought that I wouldnтАЩt have, if the situation was reversed and she was walking behind me.
Namely, that she might be at risk of harm.
Some people answer that with тАШwell, we can all be at risk of harm at some pointтАЩ to which I say, imagine hearing a noise on the stairs as youтАЩre trying to sleepтАж. ItтАЩs darkтАж. You get up cautiously and go look but as your hand reaches the handle of the door,
the door bursts open and a figure pushes you to the ground.
YouтАЩre told to be quiet.
He has a knife. Someone else is rifling through the drawers.
They leave. It could have been worse.
Now, go to bed the next night.
Tell me youтАЩre gonna sleep like a baby.
Tonight, it just might be worse.
And on. And on.
YouтАЩve entered the world of what might happen. And youтАЩre on your guard in a way you werenтАЩt the night before it happened.
That is a womanтАЩs world.
Always.
This shit is ok when itтАЩs over there, way over thereтАж not in our jurisdictionтАж. But we always see a little bit more when we live it a little.
And for men not to get that,
where women are concerned,
Is kinda strange to me, and a touch sad.
Spot on, Mike, you've got it.
ItтАЩs okay Mike, FrankтАЩs beleaguered wife agrees with him, supposedly.
Right, Frank?
well said Mike, thankyou
In real gender dysphoria that has included medical transition, it is unlikely that women would be able to tell the difference. Unless we are going to do XX vs XY tests and give everyone an armband to identify their gender, it is just a physical appearance issue.
No, MEN can't tell the difference. Women can tell the difference every single time. Recognising the difference between male and female is an evolutionary survival trait women have relied on for all of time. Even if there's a double take, that double take happens for a reason: because on the deepest level, women know when they are in the presence of a male, regardless the modifications.
LOL. Okay Karen. Thanks for womansplaining that to me.
You're welcome. Learn something.
He won't! He is a man who thinks he knows better than women do what women can see with our own eyes! That is mansplaining, of course.
Oh I love seeing a misandrist woman rush to womansplain to a man how he should think and act.
Bravo!
*golfclap*
Nothing wrong with womansplaining when a woman is telling you what women actually can do that, apparently, you cannot do and do not understand that women can do. You have made it clear that you do not think women can clock males who larp as females, but evolution has made women very able to do that.
Womansplaining is the process of failing to think critically through a rind of strong emotions, hence womansplaining is irrational and should be rejected and avoided.
That is really not true! If by "medical transition" you mean a man who has had his male genitalia removed, there is no way that at a quick glance a woman (or other man, for that matter) could tell that he no longer has male genitalia (no bulge in his crotch).
None of us realize it when a clothed man has had his genitalia removed due to trauma or disease. If by "medical transition" you mean a man whose breasts have somewhat enlarged due to estrogen he has taken, or has had breast implants,that he is not simply a man with gynecomastia. Some women joke when looking at a man with gynecomastia that "he has bigger boobs than I do!" Because some men do have bigger breasts than women with small breasts.
There are many ways in which men (males!) are anatomically different than women (females!). Relative to their overall body size, men have bigger hands and bigger feet than women is one of the most conspicuous differences. They have Adam's apples which the men who try to pass as women often try to conceal by wearing chokers. Their voices are usually much deeper in pitch. These days hulking 6'4" built-like-a-brick-shithouse men think that they can pass as women if they just wear high heels, long hair wigs and makeup. The males with the best chance of passing are those with small builds who are naturally "effeminate", but they rarely larp as women and so do not try to enter female single-sex spaces.
Evolution has made women very good at instantly knowing whether an adult is male or female. If it is not instantly apparent, it becomes apparent quite quickly, watching how a person behaves: their gait, how men sit with legs apart, the sense of entitlement that they project. Men who larp as women do not realize the many "tells" they have that make women realize they are in fact male.
Have you actually seen very many men who are trying to pass as women? Or is this just an intellectual exercise for you?
...their gait, how they sit with legs apart which girls and women are taught not to do. Men who want to pass as women coach each other on Reddit and elsewhere on the many ways they have to alter their behavior, learned as boys, in order to move and carry themselves more like women. There are many "tells" that males who larp as women do not realize they give that show women they are men and not women.
Wow. How sexist. So a butch female that wears pants and sits with her legs open and has adopted behaviors that project as male would be discriminated on by you as being male.
LOL. Women are magical in that they can tell the real sex of a person by just watching them walk, etc.
Wow, Frank, we're all sorry you have trouble distinguishing between the two sexes. You should get that checked. Even mice know the difference between men and women. https://www.kentscientific.com/blog/biological-sex-of-researchers-and-mice-can-skew-research-results/#:~:text=Mice%20can%20tell%20the%20sex,and%20more%20relaxed%20around%20women.
You're confused. You tried to assert what women think. You were corrected by a woman. Time to be quiet and learn.
Actually many men who donтАЩt think with their dicks when looking at any slightly feminine form can tell the difference. This fully passing тАШthingтАЩ is utter delusion . No male fully passes. How stupid to think otherwise !
Name calling is stupid.
Well, I'm a woman and I've known a few men who were very convincing as women. So convincing I didn't realize they were men until they told me. That was unusual even at the time, a long time ago, when what we then called transsexual men (vs. crossdressing men) for the most part wanted very much to pass as women, without a public fuss or any issues with restrooms. Since women's restrooms don't have urinals or open toilet stalls the only barrier to entry is one of appearance. Which is sort of ironic, as more masculine-appearing women routinely get challenged in public restrooms. As I well remember from my short-haired days.
Yeah well since there are numerous kinksters who are in there to record and to whack off, and since these people are also expressive of violence and threats of rape, and also just because public restrooms aren't their house and we don't have to share with strange men: they can stay the fuck out.
ЁЯЩМЁЯП╝
ItтАЩs not just a physical appearance issue, Frank: тАЬtransitionedтАЭ males still retain much of their physical advantage, and male pattern violence.
Are armbands needed? DonтАЩt be ridiculous.
Do you know who *always* knows? The male in question.
Why are *you* so eager to let them off the hook, to give them cover, to put women and girls are greater risk?
Your black and white position on this isn't going to win anything. I am sure you have been taking a dump at the airport bathroom with a biological XX person in the stall next to you, and you never noticed or could not tell. Likewise, I am sure females have been doing their business in a bathroom with other XY people and could not tell.
How are you suggesting we police that? What makes you think a real transitioned human like Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner is a threat to women in the bathroom. It seems overly paranoid, or just extreme.
YouтАЩre mighty casual with the risks to women, Frank.
What makes you think that Bruce Jenner isnтАЩt? HeтАЩs admitted paraphilias involving *his own daughters*, they commonly cluster with others, often more dangerous.
Is it that heтАЩs a hero to you? Deshawn Watson тАж
Is it that he seems nice? Ted Bundy тАж
It is *true* that some TIMs pass some of the time. And even that a few pass most of the time.
That doesnтАЩt excuse your desire to extend a privilege to males in general (or at all).
Just as you ask how IтАЩd тАЬpoliceтАЭ it, I ask you: are there going to be тАЬpassing policeтАЭ?
How are women to know which TIMs have been certified as passing, or тАЬsafeтАЭ, and which havenтАЩt?
The only answer is:
Hold all males accountable to the same rules. No XY in XX.
Enforce the laws we have, instead of excusing some subset of males that you (and if not you, who?) thinks women should be forced to accept in their private spaces.
And stop telling women what and who they should accept from males. Is that a clear enough response for you, Frank?
besides, passing in appearance doesn't make them "safe" it just means they didn't start with a super masculine frame. Not so common, given that boys are often identifiable in the cradle by their shape
It's clear what you believe, and I respect your right to believe it. I just disagree with that being a helpful or useful perspective. I see it as too black-vs-white given the realities of the human condition.
And you really don't answer the question about how your complete restriction on any XY entering a restroom for females gets policed.
Clearly the gestational process of gender development in the womb is fraught with diverse results that include gender dysphoria. In some cases there is genital ambiguity. But even without that, there can be other internal brain development that leads to sex identity dysphoria. And if those people transition, I don't see how restricting them from using a restroom matching their transitioned-to gender is a threat to anyone.
Frankly, I think what we need is construction code that makes all multi-person commercial restrooms unisex without urinals and with floor-to-ceiling lockable-from-the-inside stalls and no door into the restroom.
Frank, youтАЩre every bit of a mansplaining tool as Steve.
Listen to some fucking women.
You donтАЩt see how itтАЩs a threat тАж because
you donтАЩt know wtf youтАЩre talking about.
And you would like to solve this with construction codes: have you read a damn thing about the research and realities of such spaces and how they put women and girls at greater risks than single sex facilities?
YouтАЩre quite the pair, and you caught me on an angry day.
IтАЩm going to show a bunch of folks how callous and hubristic you are too.
Enjoy, Frank.
тАЬ And you would like to solve this with construction codes: have you read a damn thing about the research and realities of such spaces and how they put women and girls at greater risks than single sex facilities?тАЭ
IтАЩd actually be very interested in seeing this research if you could stop screeching and insulting for long enough to share it.
I listen to my wife of 42 years, and she agrees with me. Keep biological men out of women's restrooms, but not those with diagnosed gender dysphoria that have been medically transitioned. She agrees that the only way to police it is by the appearance of the person.
Like I said, I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Frankly, because I am, it is a bit weird that anyone would fear the sex intentions of a biological male that is medically transitioned to a female identity.
You don't seem to understand the construction code point, but it might be over your head.
But your wife doesn't have the right to give consent for other women.
Let me try again: it is incorrect to treat DSD or any ambiguous genitalia patient as equivalent in any way to Gender Dysphoria. GD patients have zero physical abnormality or impairment. Whereas a baby with DSD may well have external genitalia that are completely opposite of their sex chromosomes (although this type is sooo extremely rare as to be insignificant). The most common type of DSD is 21-hydroxylase deficiency form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. A boy with this is straight up just a boy. A girl with this IS masculinized to varying extents - and they still know theyтАЩre girls. GD is all in someoneтАЩs mind.
Honestly applied empathy and logic typically lead to the same conclusion as the stats I give elsewhere. Try this...
Imagine living as a woman: 1 in 4 have experienced rape, and 99% sexual aggression to a greater or lesser degree, all the while conscious of an extraordinary strength differential rendering us vulnerable to any one male who tries it on.
Men really seem to struggle to imagine this, so here's a useful analogy...:
You're given a large bag of Maltesers. The vast majority are lovely. But a few of them will make you ill enough to remember the experience for life (these represent abusive experiences stopping just short of attack; we've almost all had these, and many of us remember one when that realisation of our own utter vulnerability hit, and hit hard). Meanwhile, one Malteser in the bag - just one - is cyanide. That would be the violent attacker, whether he's downright evil or mundanely opportunistic. Do you take and eat a Malteser, Frank?
Mixed sex spaces remove women's freedom to mitigate - and get some relief from - the risk we face.
If you ever see this, Frank, perhaps in future try prioritising facts over a comically patronising tone. It would come across better.
Please also share the below with your wife, so she can make informed judgements, too...:
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison =
16.8%
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
NB. These proportions are reflected in corresponding statistics in various other nations.
You could also look into: research into levels of post-transition male violence and the variety of reasons for transitioning including AGP (on the latter, there are some very good firsthand accounts by medically transitioned transwomen eg. Debbie Hayton).
"And if those people transition, I don't see how restricting them from using a restroom matching their transitioned-to gender is a threat to anyone." I can see how, but only if the data shows it. Numerous studies have analyzed the prevalence of violent crime of transwomen and also of the overall male population. The data on crime and violent crime by transwomen has been tracked since at least 1973, studied within many countries, and then restudied. Data exists! Assuming you know the data exists and that you have examined it, are you suggesting that transwomen exhibit the same threat to women as other women do? Because that would have to be your conclusion from the data in order to make your statement. Have you examined the crime and violence data in regards to transwomen? It is possible to turn "I don't see" into an informed opinion, but 'seeing' might complicate your solidarity with trans-freedom.
Just how it was policed for the last 80 or so years since women were allowed to walk further than the shop because they were finally granted a public toilet for themselves only тАж
I agree, all bathrooms should be single person use only
тАШBiological XY personтАЩ ? You mean MALE
Men who are pretending to be women rarely pass as such. Women who pretend to be men, and who have taken enough testosterone, can generally pass more easily. The entire reason why the gender ideologues began experimenting on children is that they believe the males would "get better outcomes" if they don't go through normal male puberty. "Better outcomes" translates as "They would pass better as women." This isn't just my opinion, it is a fact that gender medical professionals are very open about.
Another reality that the gender ideologues are not open about is that men act like men after they have transitioned, they don't act like women. A lot of them are narcissistic and they don't change their entitled, self-centered, pushy personalities after they transition, no matter what body parts they hack off or how much estrogen they use.
You may think that trans identified females pass but as a gay man I can always tell the small manly robotic voiced women .. they have crap facial hair also.. no fooling me
There is no link between how 'true' someone's gender dysphoria is and how well they pass. And no woman knows what's going on in the head of the gender dysphoric man when he walks into the women's toilets. And the vast majority of 'trans women' today still have their male genitals intact.
Unless you are going to station a penis vs vagina inspection, you would likely prevent John Kerry's daughter from entering. https://unfoundation.org/blog/post/why-we-care-an-interview-with-vanessa-kerry-on-reproductive-health/
That's just not true
Nice one
women cannot tell the difference between a genuine transwoman (man) and a pervert, fetishist or chancer just by looking at them and for this reason, none of them should be able to come into our private spaces. They say they can't use the men's room because they fear being attacked but that's exactly how we women feel every time a male bodied person enters our spaces.
So awesome that you guys are finally reaching that conclusion. My other half still doesnтАЩt get it. I too started out sanguine towards transppl in the wrong loo, but the complete failure to set any boundaries at all is worrying to me. I also agree with Frank that it cuts both ways: if single sex spaces are important for women then there must be at least some single sex spaces that are reserved for men as well.
The problem is the never-ending entitlement of men to define women's boundaries for them.
YouтАЩre a moron
YES!
Well the situation is the same reversed. Any XX person that transitions medically to a male identity would be able to use the men's restroom.
I think the more recent never-ending general demonstrated entitlement is that women have no boundaries, refuse to have anyone else set any boundaries for them, but then also behave as Karens that can tell everyone else how they must live their lives.
The situation is not the same reversed you colossal buffoon.
Women, even on post pubertal T, do not gain the same physical advantage as males who go through puberty do.
JFC Frank.
тАЬMy wife agrees with meтАЭ
YouтАЩre probably such a nightmare when she doesnтАЩt that she just strokes your ego.
Listen to JW
Read Kathleen Stock, Emma Hilton, and myriad others whoтАЩve put in the work that you so breezily assume youтАЩve worked out all by your cognitively unimpressive lonesome.
Stop smelling your farts, Frank, youтАЩre delusional from methane poisoning.
Alright man, thatтАЩs enough. Disagreement is welcome here, abuse is not.
Frank and others have tried several times to be reasonable and respectful. If you canтАЩt express yourself more productively than screeching at people IтАЩm going to ban you.
Calling women Karens is not respectful
No, it's not. And if one person had been writing dozens of unhinged comments calling everybody who disagreed with them, however slightly, a Karen, I'd have said the same thing to them.
But I've already overlooked dozens of "Digital Canary's" far more pointed insults. There comes a point where people simply aren't contributing anything but toxicity.
I am quite sure that Frank and other men who comment as he does are "man enough" to take humorous comments like "Stop smelling your farts...you're delusional from methane poisoning."
"I am quite sure that Frank..."
Me too. In fact Frank messaged me to let me know that he's fine with the occasional idiot with low emotional control.
But as these "humorous comments" contribute nothing to the conversation, are obviously not going to change anybody's mind, and create a degree of toxicity that I think we could all do without (and which some people might reasonably find unpleasant), I'd rather people who can't communicate like grown-ups throw their little tantrums in somebody else's community.
Have at it man.
Your hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness is already being picked up by bigger accounts, and IтАЩve not even started to go to work on you both.
Feel free to walk back your respective claims of superior understanding anytime, and listen to whatтАЩs been said.
Or dig deeper.
The choice is yours: IтАЩd prefer you learn something the easy way, but IтАЩm fully prepared to get it through to you the hard way.
Neither I, nor anybody else, can learn from someone who is тАЬnot here to persuade, but to тАЬshame.тАЭ
All youтАЩve been doing here is indulging your ego. ItтАЩs painfully obvious that nothing youтАЩre saying, and certainly not the way youтАЩre saying it, will persuade or edify anybody. Nor is it meant to. ItтАЩs just you flattering yourself for an imagined audience.
Again, disagreement is welcome here, and if you feel you have something valuable to share (like that research on single use spaces), IтАЩm sure many people would be glad to hear it.
But if all you want to do is grandstand and abuse people and make silly little threats about тАЬthe hard wayтАЭ (believe me when I say you donтАЩt even begin to intimidate me), then yes, youтАЩll have to do it elsewhere.
Still pontificating, Steve. YouтАЩre a laugh riot.
You know, youтАЩre not the first person to say IтАЩm funny. Glad youтАЩre enjoying yourself.
IтАЩm asking you for the third time for that research, IтАЩd really like to learn. Otherwise, yeah, please share my work with larger accounts. Make sure thousands of new people see my work. What a terrifying threat that is for a content creatorтАжЁЯШЕ
Been reading your comments lately, Steve?
Seems like folks here are enthralled by your brilliance.
FWIW i did come here to persuade.
And after you tripled down (unpersuadableЁЯд╖тАНтЩВя╕П) I switched to shaming.
So about your pontificating?
Any thoughts from your brilliant mind?
While IтАЩm waiting for sagepub to stop being a pita, are you ever going to actually address your dismissal of your own pontification-related comment, Steve?
You and Steve need to take it outside. I agree with you substantively, Digital Canary. Read what I have written. But there is not point in you and Steve going at it like ping pong.
You sound like a nice person.
It's men's history-long 'redefining' of female boundaries with violence and force that is the point here. Go elsewhere for your bizarre little opportunistic wobble about 'Karens.' Jesus.
Whether a man has dysphoria or schizophrenia is irrelevant to women and girls needing their own single-sex spaces. Women and girls are not "support animals" for mentally ill males.
And there's the sexual fetish of autogynephilia, which most of these men who identify as women have.