"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
C'mon Steve, if he fools you, that's not his problem? You got 90% of the way but didn't want to commit to your own views?
Think of Boy's Don't Cry - while the men are the true evil here, it's clear to me the protagonist doesn't get meaningful consent from her partner. Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?
I get that someone can adopt a gender identity of the opposite sex and live without much issue, but it wouldn't be acceptable to anyone's standards to withhold this info to a potential intimate partner, for example. This means passing people can probably get by just fine but the key thing is they do actually need to accept who they are, because that is just reality. You actually can't be something you're not.
“Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?”
I haven’t seen Boys Don’t Cry, so I’m not getting the reference, but people lie all the time. And again, in 95% of cases, it’s not viewed as a crime of any sort.
That doesn’t mean I think lying is okay. But dressing as a woman/man is obviously not lying in the sense that anybody uses the word. Otherwise fancy dress parties would be filled with “liars.” Not to mention the millions of “lies” that would be being told daily by makeup and plastic surgery.
If you’re talking specifically about lying to coerce someone into bed, that’s obviously wrong. But that’s a very specific case that wasn’t under discussion and would fit into the 5% of cases where perception isn’t all that matters.
Really not sure what you’re taking issue with or how you think I’m being inconsistent.
It is not whether he fools someone (btw misgendering some of the activists would say). It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man. I have met “feminine” trans, none convince and the most convincing only gets away with for a couple of minutes at best in close proximity. Distance is hardly a factor in justifying this nonsense. Live their lives and let women live theirs.
“It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man.”
Yes, agreed. But we weren’t discussing this scenario. We were talking about the potential criminality of mistaking a man for a woman.
And even if you believe you’ve never done this (spoiler:you almost certainly have) transition surgeries/hormones are only ever going to get better. There will absolutely be a point when trans women pass most of the time. And the groundwork for that point needs to be laid now.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
C'mon Steve, if he fools you, that's not his problem? You got 90% of the way but didn't want to commit to your own views?
Think of Boy's Don't Cry - while the men are the true evil here, it's clear to me the protagonist doesn't get meaningful consent from her partner. Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?
I get that someone can adopt a gender identity of the opposite sex and live without much issue, but it wouldn't be acceptable to anyone's standards to withhold this info to a potential intimate partner, for example. This means passing people can probably get by just fine but the key thing is they do actually need to accept who they are, because that is just reality. You actually can't be something you're not.
“Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?”
I haven’t seen Boys Don’t Cry, so I’m not getting the reference, but people lie all the time. And again, in 95% of cases, it’s not viewed as a crime of any sort.
That doesn’t mean I think lying is okay. But dressing as a woman/man is obviously not lying in the sense that anybody uses the word. Otherwise fancy dress parties would be filled with “liars.” Not to mention the millions of “lies” that would be being told daily by makeup and plastic surgery.
If you’re talking specifically about lying to coerce someone into bed, that’s obviously wrong. But that’s a very specific case that wasn’t under discussion and would fit into the 5% of cases where perception isn’t all that matters.
Really not sure what you’re taking issue with or how you think I’m being inconsistent.
It is not whether he fools someone (btw misgendering some of the activists would say). It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man. I have met “feminine” trans, none convince and the most convincing only gets away with for a couple of minutes at best in close proximity. Distance is hardly a factor in justifying this nonsense. Live their lives and let women live theirs.
“It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man.”
Yes, agreed. But we weren’t discussing this scenario. We were talking about the potential criminality of mistaking a man for a woman.
And even if you believe you’ve never done this (spoiler:you almost certainly have) transition surgeries/hormones are only ever going to get better. There will absolutely be a point when trans women pass most of the time. And the groundwork for that point needs to be laid now.