"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrif…
"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrified reaction from the woman in the bathroom because they look like women. Right now, and for many years, there have been trans women using female spaces without causing any problems.
The problem is, the question of whether one passes is VERY subjective. Especially in today's insane climate. There's a whole echo chamber on social media built around convincing people who very clearly don't pass at all that they're Gal Gadot. Plus, there's the whole "trans women don't owe you femininity" wing of trans activism that claims that anybody, even a bearded rugby player with hairy shovels for hands becomes a woman the instant they say they identify as one.
But yeah, the more I think about it, maybe the problem is the whole concept of "passing."
Because the question isn't what you can fool people into believing, the question is what is actually true. Trans women are men who wish to be perceived as women. That's absolutely fine. 95% of the time the way you're perceived is all that really matters. But I think it's a huge mistake to think it's cruel or "transphobic" if there are times when they have to defer to their biology.
So my preferred solution, which some public spaces are already adopting, is to make men's toilets gender-neutral spaces where it's normal to see all "genders" using them, and leave female spaces for females.
Who knows, in a few generations, maybe this would lead to a world where it becomes so normal to see male- and female-presenting people in a single restroom that the concept of gendered spaces fades away on its own. But the testing ground for that should be male spaces, where there is no increased risk caused by mixing. Not female spaces.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
C'mon Steve, if he fools you, that's not his problem? You got 90% of the way but didn't want to commit to your own views?
Think of Boy's Don't Cry - while the men are the true evil here, it's clear to me the protagonist doesn't get meaningful consent from her partner. Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?
I get that someone can adopt a gender identity of the opposite sex and live without much issue, but it wouldn't be acceptable to anyone's standards to withhold this info to a potential intimate partner, for example. This means passing people can probably get by just fine but the key thing is they do actually need to accept who they are, because that is just reality. You actually can't be something you're not.
“Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?”
I haven’t seen Boys Don’t Cry, so I’m not getting the reference, but people lie all the time. And again, in 95% of cases, it’s not viewed as a crime of any sort.
That doesn’t mean I think lying is okay. But dressing as a woman/man is obviously not lying in the sense that anybody uses the word. Otherwise fancy dress parties would be filled with “liars.” Not to mention the millions of “lies” that would be being told daily by makeup and plastic surgery.
If you’re talking specifically about lying to coerce someone into bed, that’s obviously wrong. But that’s a very specific case that wasn’t under discussion and would fit into the 5% of cases where perception isn’t all that matters.
Really not sure what you’re taking issue with or how you think I’m being inconsistent.
It is not whether he fools someone (btw misgendering some of the activists would say). It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man. I have met “feminine” trans, none convince and the most convincing only gets away with for a couple of minutes at best in close proximity. Distance is hardly a factor in justifying this nonsense. Live their lives and let women live theirs.
“It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man.”
Yes, agreed. But we weren’t discussing this scenario. We were talking about the potential criminality of mistaking a man for a woman.
And even if you believe you’ve never done this (spoiler:you almost certainly have) transition surgeries/hormones are only ever going to get better. There will absolutely be a point when trans women pass most of the time. And the groundwork for that point needs to be laid now.
This makes perfect sense. While I do understand that this may create fear among trans men of violence in male spaces, why should women be the ones to accommodate what trans men think they need?
But the follow on would be what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?
“ what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?”
Just to be clear, I presume you’re meaning trans identifying man here? Not what most people mean when they say trans man?
If so, I’d be a little surprised I guess, but no big deal. Even if this person passed fully as female, I’d be maybe minimally uncomfortable, but that discomfort wouldn’t come with any fear that they’d hurt me or do anything inappropriate.
It’s funny, one of the Reddit posts I saw while researching this was a trans woman raging because his university had designated the men’s as the “inclusive” “all-gender” bathroom and had left the women’s for women.
He had an option, everything was fine, but he could no longer justify invading the women’s.
And exactly how many pass? Almost none. But the clue is in the word, pass. If they also pass as under 18, would they get into minor’s spaces? If you PASS, then you are NOT. Live your life as you please but without forcing others to live their lives according to your self perception.
I don’t know. Nor do you. Largely because trans women who pass, by definition, aren’t read as trans women.
Yes, very obviously trans women are not women. But if a trans woman passes as a woman, then there are certain situations where them living as they please is based on YOUR perception.
There’s a good chance, for example that you’ve passed a trans woman on the street, or even shared a bathroom with one, and felt zero discomfort because you perceived them as a woman. So, and this is a serious question, what do you suggest doing with this person?
I’ve been unequivocal in my support for women’s spaces. And, of course, spaces like prisons and rape shelters and sports are different and should be managed based on sex regardless of presentation. But total absolutism seems silly as well as obviously unenforceable.
I feel no discomfort in meeting or dealing with trans. My non recognition of trans identified males as women is not based on my discomfort levels, as it doesn’t bother me. The passables I have met, are only passable at a distance, close contact generally tells me who is who and what is what. At least we agree on the issue of prisons which has always been my main area of concern on the issue, one I had written about prior to setting up substack and possibly won’t return to, anytime soon.
“The passables I have met, are only passable at a distance, close contact generally tells me who is who and what is what.”
Again, you can’t possibly know this. It’s like saying you can always tell when someone is lying. By definition, the lies you didn’t detect appear to you to have been truth. So you assume they were true.
Similarly, any women you didn’t detect as trans appeared to be women. So you assumed they were women.
"At what point would you say a trans person could/should use a restroom they identify with? Would you ever consider it acceptable? Only if they fully pass as cis and nobody would think otherwise?"
Yeah, this is a tricky question. The easy answer is "when they fully pass."
There are lots of trans women who wouldn't have provoked that horrified reaction from the woman in the bathroom because they look like women. Right now, and for many years, there have been trans women using female spaces without causing any problems.
The problem is, the question of whether one passes is VERY subjective. Especially in today's insane climate. There's a whole echo chamber on social media built around convincing people who very clearly don't pass at all that they're Gal Gadot. Plus, there's the whole "trans women don't owe you femininity" wing of trans activism that claims that anybody, even a bearded rugby player with hairy shovels for hands becomes a woman the instant they say they identify as one.
But yeah, the more I think about it, maybe the problem is the whole concept of "passing."
Because the question isn't what you can fool people into believing, the question is what is actually true. Trans women are men who wish to be perceived as women. That's absolutely fine. 95% of the time the way you're perceived is all that really matters. But I think it's a huge mistake to think it's cruel or "transphobic" if there are times when they have to defer to their biology.
So my preferred solution, which some public spaces are already adopting, is to make men's toilets gender-neutral spaces where it's normal to see all "genders" using them, and leave female spaces for females.
Who knows, in a few generations, maybe this would lead to a world where it becomes so normal to see male- and female-presenting people in a single restroom that the concept of gendered spaces fades away on its own. But the testing ground for that should be male spaces, where there is no increased risk caused by mixing. Not female spaces.
No maybe, Steve.
Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted.
"Sex deception is still deception, just as any crime is a crime even if it’s not identified/prosecuted."
Sure, but deceiving people about your sex isn't a crime. And in the majority of cases it would be absolutely ridiculous to treat it as one. Again, 95% of the time, perception is what matters (an obvious exception is sports).
If a guy wants to walk around the world presenting in a stereotypically feminine way, that's up to him. If he fools you, that's not his problem. The problem is managing his interaction with women's spaces.
C'mon Steve, if he fools you, that's not his problem? You got 90% of the way but didn't want to commit to your own views?
Think of Boy's Don't Cry - while the men are the true evil here, it's clear to me the protagonist doesn't get meaningful consent from her partner. Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?
I get that someone can adopt a gender identity of the opposite sex and live without much issue, but it wouldn't be acceptable to anyone's standards to withhold this info to a potential intimate partner, for example. This means passing people can probably get by just fine but the key thing is they do actually need to accept who they are, because that is just reality. You actually can't be something you're not.
“Where else is it suddenly ok to lie about basic facts?”
I haven’t seen Boys Don’t Cry, so I’m not getting the reference, but people lie all the time. And again, in 95% of cases, it’s not viewed as a crime of any sort.
That doesn’t mean I think lying is okay. But dressing as a woman/man is obviously not lying in the sense that anybody uses the word. Otherwise fancy dress parties would be filled with “liars.” Not to mention the millions of “lies” that would be being told daily by makeup and plastic surgery.
If you’re talking specifically about lying to coerce someone into bed, that’s obviously wrong. But that’s a very specific case that wasn’t under discussion and would fit into the 5% of cases where perception isn’t all that matters.
Really not sure what you’re taking issue with or how you think I’m being inconsistent.
It is not whether he fools someone (btw misgendering some of the activists would say). It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man. I have met “feminine” trans, none convince and the most convincing only gets away with for a couple of minutes at best in close proximity. Distance is hardly a factor in justifying this nonsense. Live their lives and let women live theirs.
“It is when he demands that you accept that he literally is a woman and not a man.”
Yes, agreed. But we weren’t discussing this scenario. We were talking about the potential criminality of mistaking a man for a woman.
And even if you believe you’ve never done this (spoiler:you almost certainly have) transition surgeries/hormones are only ever going to get better. There will absolutely be a point when trans women pass most of the time. And the groundwork for that point needs to be laid now.
This makes perfect sense. While I do understand that this may create fear among trans men of violence in male spaces, why should women be the ones to accommodate what trans men think they need?
But the follow on would be what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?
“ what your reaction would be if you went ‘across the hall’ to the men’s bathroom and a female presenting trans man was there. What would your reaction be?”
Just to be clear, I presume you’re meaning trans identifying man here? Not what most people mean when they say trans man?
If so, I’d be a little surprised I guess, but no big deal. Even if this person passed fully as female, I’d be maybe minimally uncomfortable, but that discomfort wouldn’t come with any fear that they’d hurt me or do anything inappropriate.
It’s funny, one of the Reddit posts I saw while researching this was a trans woman raging because his university had designated the men’s as the “inclusive” “all-gender” bathroom and had left the women’s for women.
He had an option, everything was fine, but he could no longer justify invading the women’s.
And exactly how many pass? Almost none. But the clue is in the word, pass. If they also pass as under 18, would they get into minor’s spaces? If you PASS, then you are NOT. Live your life as you please but without forcing others to live their lives according to your self perception.
“And exactly how many pass? Almost none.”
I don’t know. Nor do you. Largely because trans women who pass, by definition, aren’t read as trans women.
Yes, very obviously trans women are not women. But if a trans woman passes as a woman, then there are certain situations where them living as they please is based on YOUR perception.
There’s a good chance, for example that you’ve passed a trans woman on the street, or even shared a bathroom with one, and felt zero discomfort because you perceived them as a woman. So, and this is a serious question, what do you suggest doing with this person?
I’ve been unequivocal in my support for women’s spaces. And, of course, spaces like prisons and rape shelters and sports are different and should be managed based on sex regardless of presentation. But total absolutism seems silly as well as obviously unenforceable.
I feel no discomfort in meeting or dealing with trans. My non recognition of trans identified males as women is not based on my discomfort levels, as it doesn’t bother me. The passables I have met, are only passable at a distance, close contact generally tells me who is who and what is what. At least we agree on the issue of prisons which has always been my main area of concern on the issue, one I had written about prior to setting up substack and possibly won’t return to, anytime soon.
“The passables I have met, are only passable at a distance, close contact generally tells me who is who and what is what.”
Again, you can’t possibly know this. It’s like saying you can always tell when someone is lying. By definition, the lies you didn’t detect appear to you to have been truth. So you assume they were true.
Similarly, any women you didn’t detect as trans appeared to be women. So you assumed they were women.