So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a perm…
So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a permanent, biological trait. Things like chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, male vs female etc are part of sex.
Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex. This does not mean that gender is not real, that argument is silly and confusing imo. Gender is a complex series of learned behaviors and mannerisms that we replicate over generations. People sometimes object to this saying that it boils gender down to stereotypes, but that’s kind of what we’re addressing when we say gender isn’t binary. One does not have to conform to all gendered behaviors to be a woman, man, etc. Some people feel the need to create additional labels across that spectrum, but that’s not mandatory.
In summary of this point, people are arguing that gender identity determines gender. Not that it determines sex. And if they are arguing it determines sex they’re being silly and are factually incorrect.
Second, you gave an example of “gender ideology”, that a young boy will play with dolls and wear dresses and people will say he is really a girl. Now, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. So I will not deny that someone out there believes something like that, nor that you’ve witnessed someone say something similar.
However, it’s important to note that (and this is coming from someone who knows dozens of real life trans people and even more people who support them) almost nobody actually believes that. Like I have really, truly, never met a single person, trans or otherwise, who would look at a boy playing with dolls and say he is a girl. Again not denying that you’ve seen it. But the internet amplifies rage inducing opinions and it’s important to keep that in mind.
Regarding your point about stereotypes, I agree they are harmful. But when people say “cis” to refer to people, we’ll use women as an example, they are not labeling that woman as a “stereotypical girly girl” and saying that is what defines her womanhood. They are saying that the woman was born as a female and is comfortable with the gender that comes as the default for it in our society. I know plenty of cis women who are not particularly feminine.
Cis = someone who identifies with their gender assigned at birth. This is most people, so the adjective cis is rarely needed unless we’re discussing trans people, in which case it’s a helpful distinction.
So I was explaining the linguistic origin of the term. It’s a Latin preposition that means “this side of”, as I said. Some other examples of English prepositions: Around, across, within, between, beyond, despite, etc.
These words don’t mean anything on their own and cis is especially confusing since it’s Latin.
To answer your question directly. Cis can mean on this side of anything. When referring to people who are not trans, the original term is actually “cisgender”. It was later shortened to cis in certain contexts for convenience.
The terms cis and trans can also be found in chemistry and cellular biology. We have record of them being used to describe gender and or sexuality dating back to over a century ago.
"Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex."
I think this is actually the sticking point for many people, myself included.
I've yet to see how "gender," as it's used by some members of the trans community, is anything more than, the collection of stereotypical male/female behaviours and expectations that appeals to a particular individual.
And by this definition, it seems obvious that there are as many genders as there are people. So while, yes, those stereotypical behaviours and expectations are socially constructed, we still see, in every single person, a different constellation of those stereotypes. And, indeed, we see many women who defy those stereotypes in various ways while still being women.
p.s. On "almost nobody believing" that a boy who plays with plays with dolls is really a girl, I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people making arguments exactly like this.
The article I've just linked to has a few. Here's trans charity Mermaids showing off training materials that literally presents gender on a continuum from G.I Joe to Barbie (https://x.com/steevqj/status/1755353186687180906?s=20). Trans reddit is filled with people explaining that they knew they were trans as children because they liked playing with dolls or wearing their mother's makeup.
It's always difficult to get a true sense of how prevalent a certain attitude is within a group. I try to be very careful about painting in broad strokes. But I think the viewpoint is more common than you're painting it here.
“nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.”
This just isn't true. Gender recognition certificates change a record of someone being male to being female, or vice versa. The whole problem of males in women's sports and in women's spaces rests on the claim that these people are now, for all practical purposes, the opposite sex to the one they were born.
The Sandie Peggie case in Scotland involves a nurse who was suspended for objecting to a male person in the female changing room. In the witness box this male person - a medical doctor - claimed to be biologically female. None of the NHS witnesses defending the treatment of Peggie will admit that Upton is male.
Gender identity is a bait and switch. We are asked to accept that a male person is female but as that is self-evidently untrue, a middle step is fabricated - we are asked to accept him not as female, but as a woman (what does “woman” mean? Insert circular definition). He then claims the right to spaces and resources reserved for female people. Alan Sokal has gone into more detail about the use of the word woman and how in practical terms it still means adult human female.
Theo, cis states that gender identity takes priority over biological sex, that is the conflict at stake regardless of your pontification around sex and gender. What defines Man and Woman.
Others have responded with the same point but using cis and trans woman as a label priorities gender identity over biological sex. A trans women is a woman because they have a female gender identity, they are a kind of woman. If biological sex were prioritized the same person would be a trans man, a man that is trans in appearance, or has a female gender identity, if you believe in such things (I don't). Trans man, emphasizing biology, is of course confusing for people who are adjusted to current usage, so trans-identified man is what we should use, as it respects reality.
So just for clarity, whether or not you agree with it: nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.
The argument that you’re likely remembering is a little bit different. It states that sex and gender and different concepts. Sex is a permanent, biological trait. Things like chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, male vs female etc are part of sex.
Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex. This does not mean that gender is not real, that argument is silly and confusing imo. Gender is a complex series of learned behaviors and mannerisms that we replicate over generations. People sometimes object to this saying that it boils gender down to stereotypes, but that’s kind of what we’re addressing when we say gender isn’t binary. One does not have to conform to all gendered behaviors to be a woman, man, etc. Some people feel the need to create additional labels across that spectrum, but that’s not mandatory.
In summary of this point, people are arguing that gender identity determines gender. Not that it determines sex. And if they are arguing it determines sex they’re being silly and are factually incorrect.
Second, you gave an example of “gender ideology”, that a young boy will play with dolls and wear dresses and people will say he is really a girl. Now, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. So I will not deny that someone out there believes something like that, nor that you’ve witnessed someone say something similar.
However, it’s important to note that (and this is coming from someone who knows dozens of real life trans people and even more people who support them) almost nobody actually believes that. Like I have really, truly, never met a single person, trans or otherwise, who would look at a boy playing with dolls and say he is a girl. Again not denying that you’ve seen it. But the internet amplifies rage inducing opinions and it’s important to keep that in mind.
Regarding your point about stereotypes, I agree they are harmful. But when people say “cis” to refer to people, we’ll use women as an example, they are not labeling that woman as a “stereotypical girly girl” and saying that is what defines her womanhood. They are saying that the woman was born as a female and is comfortable with the gender that comes as the default for it in our society. I know plenty of cis women who are not particularly feminine.
Cis = someone who identifies with their gender assigned at birth. This is most people, so the adjective cis is rarely needed unless we’re discussing trans people, in which case it’s a helpful distinction.
So I was explaining the linguistic origin of the term. It’s a Latin preposition that means “this side of”, as I said. Some other examples of English prepositions: Around, across, within, between, beyond, despite, etc.
These words don’t mean anything on their own and cis is especially confusing since it’s Latin.
To answer your question directly. Cis can mean on this side of anything. When referring to people who are not trans, the original term is actually “cisgender”. It was later shortened to cis in certain contexts for convenience.
The terms cis and trans can also be found in chemistry and cellular biology. We have record of them being used to describe gender and or sexuality dating back to over a century ago.
"Gender is a social construct that we have developed around the biological reality of sex."
I think this is actually the sticking point for many people, myself included.
I've yet to see how "gender," as it's used by some members of the trans community, is anything more than, the collection of stereotypical male/female behaviours and expectations that appeals to a particular individual.
And by this definition, it seems obvious that there are as many genders as there are people. So while, yes, those stereotypical behaviours and expectations are socially constructed, we still see, in every single person, a different constellation of those stereotypes. And, indeed, we see many women who defy those stereotypes in various ways while still being women.
I've written about this here. https://commentary.steveqj.com/p/trans-women-are-not-women-and-thats
p.s. On "almost nobody believing" that a boy who plays with plays with dolls is really a girl, I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people making arguments exactly like this.
The article I've just linked to has a few. Here's trans charity Mermaids showing off training materials that literally presents gender on a continuum from G.I Joe to Barbie (https://x.com/steevqj/status/1755353186687180906?s=20). Trans reddit is filled with people explaining that they knew they were trans as children because they liked playing with dolls or wearing their mother's makeup.
It's always difficult to get a true sense of how prevalent a certain attitude is within a group. I try to be very careful about painting in broad strokes. But I think the viewpoint is more common than you're painting it here.
“nobody (at least out of the properly informed people I’ve come across) is claiming that gender identity determines whether you are male or female.”
This just isn't true. Gender recognition certificates change a record of someone being male to being female, or vice versa. The whole problem of males in women's sports and in women's spaces rests on the claim that these people are now, for all practical purposes, the opposite sex to the one they were born.
The Sandie Peggie case in Scotland involves a nurse who was suspended for objecting to a male person in the female changing room. In the witness box this male person - a medical doctor - claimed to be biologically female. None of the NHS witnesses defending the treatment of Peggie will admit that Upton is male.
Gender identity is a bait and switch. We are asked to accept that a male person is female but as that is self-evidently untrue, a middle step is fabricated - we are asked to accept him not as female, but as a woman (what does “woman” mean? Insert circular definition). He then claims the right to spaces and resources reserved for female people. Alan Sokal has gone into more detail about the use of the word woman and how in practical terms it still means adult human female.
https://thecritic.co.uk/on-the-deceptive-use-of-words/
Theo, cis states that gender identity takes priority over biological sex, that is the conflict at stake regardless of your pontification around sex and gender. What defines Man and Woman.
I’m not sureeeeee what this is addressing/what you’re trying to add that I didn’t already say.
Others have responded with the same point but using cis and trans woman as a label priorities gender identity over biological sex. A trans women is a woman because they have a female gender identity, they are a kind of woman. If biological sex were prioritized the same person would be a trans man, a man that is trans in appearance, or has a female gender identity, if you believe in such things (I don't). Trans man, emphasizing biology, is of course confusing for people who are adjusted to current usage, so trans-identified man is what we should use, as it respects reality.