For the past week or so, there’s been a civil war on "TERF Twitter." Andrew Doyle, a long-time defender of women’s rights and biological reality was subjected to a torrent of homophobic abuse for the crime of calling a trans woman “she” during an interview.
"A purity spiral is a sociological theory which argues for the existence of a form of groupthink in which it becomes more beneficial to hold certain views than to not hold them, and more extreme views are rewarded *while expressing doubt, nuance, or moderation is punished* (a process sometimes called "moral outbidding"). It is argued that this feedback loop leads to members competing to demonstrate the zealotry or purity of their views."
Exactly. It's the 21st Century version of heresy. Any deviance from approved doctrine, on so many topics now, is met with ostracism or worse. Even from people who are almost entirely in agreement. And so, as you say, people are motivated to hold more and more extreme versions of their tribe's dogma.
Also called 'crony/merit' beliefs. Cronyism is believing in something that's popular in your environment. It *might* be true or it might not be. Merit beliefs are those held with the best available data. Cronyists ignore the data when they prefer being accepted by their community to being right, although they twist themselves into pretezels to convince themselves they are so they don't have to acknowledge how deluded they and their crowd are (and acknowledge their critics were right about them).
Here's some evidence for Catelyn. I didn't have any bathroom stories in my article so I looked for some this morning:
(No names, high school students) - After assault, Edmond transgender bathroom policy questioned - Oklahoma - 12.8.22 - An Edmond police report indicates an Oct. 26 assault in the girls’ bathroom at Memorial High School in which a girl was ‘badly beaten’ by a male student who identified as a female.
Miguel Martinez (No trans name) - Transgender man convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old girl in a bathroom - Montana - 10.20.17
No male name (Katie Dolatowski) - 18-year-old transwoman sexually assaults underage girl in a supermarket bathroom - Scotland - 02.06.19
(Unnamed attacker) - Woman who fought after transwoman attacker in a public park bathroom tells anti-trans group to stop using her story - Washington - 03.16.17
The hyperlinks don't carry over but the article will probably be out a week from this Wednesday. I also just found an article listing 21 alleged transgender attacks in bathrooms (committed by transwomen) put out by the Family Research Council, yet, a notorious right-wing Christian think thank. But, the right-wing press are the ones reporting this and I don't include a story if I can't find a legitimate source mentioning it elsewhere. So none of those stories are in there now. But some of them include bathroom attacks.
I'll also note that transgender women are sometimes attacked by non-transfolk in bathrooms too. That's not right either. Worse, some real women are being attacked by people mistaking them from transwomen because they have short hair or look kinda butch, I guess.
The solution really is third bathrooms, but only the fetishists think that's a bad idea.
"The solution really is third bathrooms, but only the fetishists think that's a bad idea."
I understand why you say this, and in an ideal world it would be true, but in practice it doesn't work unless you have some method of forcing trans people to use the third bathroom. Not to mention the enormous cost to build all of these extra bathrooms.
My belief that people should use the bathrooms they "pass" as is based on the fact that that's what we already do. And any deviance from that would lead to male looking people (trans men) using women's bathrooms. And the obvious problems that would lead to.
So yeah, I think the best way to treat bathrooms, which, as I say to Kaylin, is different to how you should treat changing rooms, prisons, etc, is to say that if you're in a bathroom and people are giving you weird looks, you're in the wrong bathroom. But otherwise, just do your thing and leave.
Oh, and business owners should stop being so cowardly, and when an obvious man is trying to use the women's bathroom and women complain, they should side with women. The fact that women are more likely to face consequences if they challenge a man in the ir bathroom than the man is, is insane. And if the fetishists knew they'd be challenged and that they wouldn't be able to cry victim, I think they'd be less likely to try their luck.
“You can tell yourself that they're all TERFs or "right-wing" and that they were never really allies anyway, but you'll be wrong.” This is me. I am the ally who supports trans rights (which are basically the same civil and human rights I want for everyone) but opposes “fetishistic, predatory men” in spaces where women are vulnerable. I won't budge on this issue, ever, I'm afraid. Call me all the names you like (royal you).
“I am the ally who supports trans rights (which are basically the same civil and human rights I want for everyone) but opposes “fetishistic, predatory men” in spaces where women are vulnerable. I won't budge on this issue, ever, I'm afraid.”
Right there with you. This is the only sane and humanistic position as far as I can see.
I can't improve upon this statement: "The enemy is an ideology that has abandoned objective reality and common sense and the very concept of women’s rights. It's radicalisation so extreme that it can no longer distinguish between friend and foe. It's absolutism and dishonesty and the absolute refusal to compromise."
I clicked on all the links you provide and am aghast. The very real fact that trans activists have pushed themselves into spaces where they have no right to be - LGBT most prominently - and the fact that so many who mistake bullying for compassion are blindly following, is terrifying.
Chloe Cole is a perfect example. She was horribly abused and misused. Her story should give all pause. But she is bullied and villified by the very activists who should be protecting her. She is forced to appeal to right-leaning commentators simply to be heard. Her abuse stems not from somebody "falling through the cracks," but from professional malaise. There is no excuse.
Absolutely. It's fascinating, in the most horrific way, to see how trans activists turn on detransitioners. The viciousness and cruelty is astonishing. And yeah, watching the things people will justify to stay loyal to their tribes is just horrifying. And not just on trans issues.
Coincidentally, I happen to have just written an article that will be a running list of trans crimes against women and children to demonstrate why TiMs don't belong in women's private spaces. I don't remember if there were any bathroom stories particularly. But I'm against men in bathrooms too. It's an article meant for folks to send to their trans-unquestioning friends who 'never heard of TW assaulting women', and pointing out that every opportunistic man (esp the ones who trans after conviction of a crime) who commit crimes against women increase the 'trans' crime rates, which is hurting the ones who don't commit crimes.
I have four categories: Criming before trans, criming after trans, criming while trans in prison, and women speak out (articles in which women - primarily female prisoners - speak out about the stress and anxiety of being housed with men).
Catelyn sounds like a classic fetishist man. Many men just don't understand the caution women have to exercise around strange men every day, and the ones who understand it the least (or do and *get off* on it) are TiMs pushing to get into women's-only spaces.
"Many men just don't understand the caution women have to exercise around strange men every day"
This is the key revelation for me over the past few years. I always thought I had a pretty good sense of this. But It really hit me during the whole #yesallwomen thing. I spoke to every one of my female friends, and they shared all kinds of stories and details that I'd ever have thought of without those conversation.
This is why I advocate for more compassionate conversations on these issues instead of "MeN bAd" diatribes that make men defensive. Because some men really will get it if they get the opportunity to process it. I've spoken to so many men over the past couple of years who had obviously never given even a shred of thought to how women's experiences in the world differ from theirs.
It's good to know that some of them are getting it. I'm more cautious these days, and ironically I'm outside the preferred rape demographic. I've thought about it, and I think it was those years on Medium with crazy feminists who saw rapists everywhere the way the crazy antiracists saw white supremacy everywhere :) Although I found the female hysterics a bit much sometime, I did understand that some were hypersensitive because of genuine prior abuse, and their stories made memore aware that maybe I'd taken safety and my own invincibility too much for granted. I don't tend to be stalked by men, even when I was younger and a flirtatious belly dancer. I just always walked around like I owned the whole damn place (whatever place I was in) and didn't act like a victim. I can't impress upon women how important it is to do that. Predatory men can sense who won't take their shit.
Lately I've been thinking about how to handle the legitimate crazies around here, if I ever get cornered into a conversation with one...speak nicely and kindly, try not to act afraid, try to distract them from...I dunno, the voices in their head or something. And if shit gets real I've got my Mighty Keychain O' Pain :)
“Predatory men can sense who won't take their shit.” Agreed. When I was in the military, I didn't really have any problems. I was approached and lightly harrassed a couple of times and they desisted when I asked them to. But, I had 2 things going for me: 1 - small breasts. Which helps. Also, I held this thought in my head all the time (and still do today): “I will fight you to the death if you attack me.” Predators do, indeed, pick up on this vibe.
Also, I will say that many, if not most instances of sexual harrassment and predatory behavior in the military involve alcohol. There are some outliers to be sure. But, most soldiers are good people.
I've sometimes wondered whether it happens to every woman. I have a writer friend who's one of the most badass 70-year-old bitches you've ever seen, and a military veteran. She was raped multiple times. It seems to be pretty common, AFAICT.
Perhaps not every woman, but a concerning percentage. I was never attacked sexually as an adult woman. Only as a very young child. Probably why I am so fierce about it never happening again. I am the kind of person that if I was unable to fend off an attack for some reason, I would pursue and kill the perp without compunction, knowing that I would spend the rest of my days in prison.
People should use language they want, not what someone else wants. In essence, if someone wants to call a transwoman a "she", that is their prerogative. If someone is compelled to call a transwoman a "she" for fear of social, political, economic or other repercussions, that is wrong. Unfortunately, the whole pronoun thing is a slippery slope, the same people who want you to use certain pronouns - which defy reality, also want you to believe that men can somehow become women by simply "feeling" like one, donning make up, wig and spinny dress.
Yes, there's an absolutely excellent article called "pronouns are Rohypnol" that was removed from Medium a few years back. It really lays out the argument against pronouns perfectly (which I guess is why the powers that be at Medium removed it).
Where we've gone wrong is the idea that pronoun "preferences" should be compulsory in any way. There are certainly some trans people, especially trans men, who pass so convincingly that it would just be obstinate to refer to them by their "sex based" pronoun. But that doesn't mean losing sight of reality in cases where it matters.
I once made the comparison to adoptive parents. We call a child's adoptive mother their mother. We don't add "adoptive" every time. But we know they're not genetically related and don't pretend they are. We recognise that it would be wildly irresponsible for the mother to tell a doctor they were related in the context of genetic conditions. Language is flexible enough to allow (optional) compassionate fudges I think. But they shouldn't be used to hide the truth.
I don't recall if I mentioned this before on this substack, but here is my take: have you heard of Emperor Joshua Norton? He lived in San Francisco in the 1800s. He convinced himself that he was the emperor of the United States, because in his opinion the United States needed some fixing. And he was just the man to do it. Most of his fellow citizens simply went along with it. He was harmless. But nobody thought he had any authority at all. They just let him be. And so this is my view on transgenders. But, and this is crucial, only adults can make this decision about themselves or other adults.
But your example relates in no way to the trans issue. Transwomen who insinuate themselves into women’s spaces, rape shelters, prisons, change rooms, sports, etc are not harmless. Nor is the indoctrination of children to believe they can simply choose their gender, like one chooses a pair of shoes. Nor is it harmless to change language to accommodate trans ideology at the expense of reality and women. There is institutional capture in many areas. Eg: only women have periods, only women give birth, women breast feed - there is no such thing as chest feeding, women have vulvas - not front holes. There is a very, very long list of harms.
I in no way mean any disrespect to you or any person or group society needs to protect. Joshua Norton did not try to harm a soul (to my knowledge. ) And before this ludicrous trans activism, there was not a concerted push to invade women's spaces. Before this insane activism, transgenders lived in their own space. That was what was available, and I believe it was just. Leave them be and they would leave the rest of society be. But now they insist that the rest of the world redefine themselves to accommodate them. So on that fundamental level, you and I agree completely. There are transgendered people in this world, and no amount of legislation or proselytizing will make them go away. Let them occupy their space and no other. I'm fine with that. The world does not need to change to accommodate anyone.
"And that if they don’t pass as women, they shouldn’t be in the women’s bathroom or any other women’s space."...
Just to complicate things:
I am a lesbian, and have been an out one for the last forty-odd years. And, yes, they have been pretty odd (ba-da boom!). In my twenties up through my forties, I--a natural woman--dressed and looked more like a young gay man. It was the era of the androgynous dyke, and I had short hair, dressed in jeans and a motorcycle jacket, wore no makeup nor jewelry. I'm tall and have a low voice as well. I occasionally got hit on or harassed when I was out and about, a passing pick-up truck screamed "faggot" at me once, before it doubled back to do it again. I was both alarmed and amused. Alarmed because the doubling-back could have been the start of a seriously violent episode, amused because they got not only my gender but my orientation wrong.
In addition, I was routinely challenged when using public restrooms. I developed a phobia about using them, it was so common to get the fish-eye from some other woman when entering the bathroom, and I was always worried they would raise a stink, forcing me to ask them if they wished me to drop my pants so they could inspect my genitals for approval.
So this whole thing about transgender women using public restrooms has had me puzzled for a while.
And these days, I have long hair again and no longer dress exclusively in men's clothes so I rarely am mistaken for a man in public.
Yep, I’ve heard a few stories about women being challenged in female bathrooms. But in every case I’ve ever heard of, as soon as they spoke to the person or got a good look at them, the situation was resolved.
We’re extremely well evolved to tell the difference between males and females. And I think it’s pretty rare that anyone cares enough to challenge at all (correct me if I’m wrong).
The issue is those cases where it’s very clearly a man in a women’s bathroom. The wider issue of homophobia, sadly, is harder to solve.
At a public restroom at Sunset Point on the way back from the Grand Canyon my sister told be that when she went into to women's room, she encountered a very Butch woman and thought she had gone into the men's room and let out an "Oh, my God!" before realizing her error. She said she was certain that the lady in question knew what that was about. My sister felt bad about it, but in retrospect, the masculine appearance was purposeful. This was before the age of trans.
Gotta love that she complains about your use of talking points and lack of evidence, while responding with only talking points and lack of evidence.
Just last night I stumbled across a screen shot of a series of tweets I had found when I was still on Facebook. A few years ago, when the mantra "trans women are women" began to be posted and tweeted in huge numbers overnight, and people were still new to the concept and unafraid to ask questions about it, and even disagree, there began this online argument: people who didn't believe the mantra would make points about objective reality and truth. The phrase "2+2=4" was a very popular example of this objective reality.
The preachers of the mantra went into overdrive trying to come up with examples that prove that 2+2 doesn't always equal 4. It was astonishing, how people were twisting themselves into nonsensical positions to invent these examples.
I had forgotten all about that chapter in the insane cultural phenomenon until I found that screen shot last night.
"people who didn't believe the mantra would make points about objective reality and truth. The phrase "2+2=4" was a very popular example of this objective reality."
Haha! I remember this! I mentioned it in an article a few years back. And yes, I'm having a fascinating conversation about objective reality at the moment. It'll make an appearance here at some point. It's been a real lightbulb moment for me.
"The “trans debate” is easily the most insane cultural phenomenon I’ve ever seen." Steve I agree fully, so I am not getting involved in it at all from a definition perspective. I am a heterosexual woman, who has been menaced far more in my lifetime by heterosexual men, not pretending to be anything else or anyone else. Here's MY definition, that I live by. (You don't have to nor does anyone else.)
Trans people are persons first, when they are genuinely transgender. Every person on the gender spectrum is a person first. That is my view. I'm sticking to it and behaving accordingly.
"I am a heterosexual woman, who has been menaced far more in my lifetime by heterosexual men"
Yes, I think this is almost every woman's experience. There are, after all, orders of magnitude more men than trans women. So the law of averages demands that you'd have more negative experiences with men. The issue is a certain class of men being allowed into women's spaces on nothing more than the honour system.
I'm a person first too. I've never behaved inappropriately towards a woman and I never would. I'm kind to animals and give money to charity. I'm still not welcome in women's spaces. And I understand completely why. As I've said many times, the fact that males are asked to stay out of certain female spaces is not discrimination. And while I think that trans women mean we need more nuance than in the case of someone like me, the issue here is the very deliberate attempt to remove all of that nuance.
"A purity spiral is a sociological theory which argues for the existence of a form of groupthink in which it becomes more beneficial to hold certain views than to not hold them, and more extreme views are rewarded *while expressing doubt, nuance, or moderation is punished* (a process sometimes called "moral outbidding"). It is argued that this feedback loop leads to members competing to demonstrate the zealotry or purity of their views."
Exactly. It's the 21st Century version of heresy. Any deviance from approved doctrine, on so many topics now, is met with ostracism or worse. Even from people who are almost entirely in agreement. And so, as you say, people are motivated to hold more and more extreme versions of their tribe's dogma.
It's so depressing
Also called 'crony/merit' beliefs. Cronyism is believing in something that's popular in your environment. It *might* be true or it might not be. Merit beliefs are those held with the best available data. Cronyists ignore the data when they prefer being accepted by their community to being right, although they twist themselves into pretezels to convince themselves they are so they don't have to acknowledge how deluded they and their crowd are (and acknowledge their critics were right about them).
Thanks.
Thank you for expanding my working vocabulary!
Here's some evidence for Catelyn. I didn't have any bathroom stories in my article so I looked for some this morning:
(No names, high school students) - After assault, Edmond transgender bathroom policy questioned - Oklahoma - 12.8.22 - An Edmond police report indicates an Oct. 26 assault in the girls’ bathroom at Memorial High School in which a girl was ‘badly beaten’ by a male student who identified as a female.
Miguel Martinez (No trans name) - Transgender man convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old girl in a bathroom - Montana - 10.20.17
No male name (Katie Dolatowski) - 18-year-old transwoman sexually assaults underage girl in a supermarket bathroom - Scotland - 02.06.19
(Unnamed attacker) - Woman who fought after transwoman attacker in a public park bathroom tells anti-trans group to stop using her story - Washington - 03.16.17
The hyperlinks don't carry over but the article will probably be out a week from this Wednesday. I also just found an article listing 21 alleged transgender attacks in bathrooms (committed by transwomen) put out by the Family Research Council, yet, a notorious right-wing Christian think thank. But, the right-wing press are the ones reporting this and I don't include a story if I can't find a legitimate source mentioning it elsewhere. So none of those stories are in there now. But some of them include bathroom attacks.
I'll also note that transgender women are sometimes attacked by non-transfolk in bathrooms too. That's not right either. Worse, some real women are being attacked by people mistaking them from transwomen because they have short hair or look kinda butch, I guess.
The solution really is third bathrooms, but only the fetishists think that's a bad idea.
"The solution really is third bathrooms, but only the fetishists think that's a bad idea."
I understand why you say this, and in an ideal world it would be true, but in practice it doesn't work unless you have some method of forcing trans people to use the third bathroom. Not to mention the enormous cost to build all of these extra bathrooms.
My belief that people should use the bathrooms they "pass" as is based on the fact that that's what we already do. And any deviance from that would lead to male looking people (trans men) using women's bathrooms. And the obvious problems that would lead to.
So yeah, I think the best way to treat bathrooms, which, as I say to Kaylin, is different to how you should treat changing rooms, prisons, etc, is to say that if you're in a bathroom and people are giving you weird looks, you're in the wrong bathroom. But otherwise, just do your thing and leave.
Oh, and business owners should stop being so cowardly, and when an obvious man is trying to use the women's bathroom and women complain, they should side with women. The fact that women are more likely to face consequences if they challenge a man in the ir bathroom than the man is, is insane. And if the fetishists knew they'd be challenged and that they wouldn't be able to cry victim, I think they'd be less likely to try their luck.
“You can tell yourself that they're all TERFs or "right-wing" and that they were never really allies anyway, but you'll be wrong.” This is me. I am the ally who supports trans rights (which are basically the same civil and human rights I want for everyone) but opposes “fetishistic, predatory men” in spaces where women are vulnerable. I won't budge on this issue, ever, I'm afraid. Call me all the names you like (royal you).
“I am the ally who supports trans rights (which are basically the same civil and human rights I want for everyone) but opposes “fetishistic, predatory men” in spaces where women are vulnerable. I won't budge on this issue, ever, I'm afraid.”
Right there with you. This is the only sane and humanistic position as far as I can see.
I can't improve upon this statement: "The enemy is an ideology that has abandoned objective reality and common sense and the very concept of women’s rights. It's radicalisation so extreme that it can no longer distinguish between friend and foe. It's absolutism and dishonesty and the absolute refusal to compromise."
I clicked on all the links you provide and am aghast. The very real fact that trans activists have pushed themselves into spaces where they have no right to be - LGBT most prominently - and the fact that so many who mistake bullying for compassion are blindly following, is terrifying.
Chloe Cole is a perfect example. She was horribly abused and misused. Her story should give all pause. But she is bullied and villified by the very activists who should be protecting her. She is forced to appeal to right-leaning commentators simply to be heard. Her abuse stems not from somebody "falling through the cracks," but from professional malaise. There is no excuse.
Absolutely. It's fascinating, in the most horrific way, to see how trans activists turn on detransitioners. The viciousness and cruelty is astonishing. And yeah, watching the things people will justify to stay loyal to their tribes is just horrifying. And not just on trans issues.
Coincidentally, I happen to have just written an article that will be a running list of trans crimes against women and children to demonstrate why TiMs don't belong in women's private spaces. I don't remember if there were any bathroom stories particularly. But I'm against men in bathrooms too. It's an article meant for folks to send to their trans-unquestioning friends who 'never heard of TW assaulting women', and pointing out that every opportunistic man (esp the ones who trans after conviction of a crime) who commit crimes against women increase the 'trans' crime rates, which is hurting the ones who don't commit crimes.
I have four categories: Criming before trans, criming after trans, criming while trans in prison, and women speak out (articles in which women - primarily female prisoners - speak out about the stress and anxiety of being housed with men).
Catelyn sounds like a classic fetishist man. Many men just don't understand the caution women have to exercise around strange men every day, and the ones who understand it the least (or do and *get off* on it) are TiMs pushing to get into women's-only spaces.
"Many men just don't understand the caution women have to exercise around strange men every day"
This is the key revelation for me over the past few years. I always thought I had a pretty good sense of this. But It really hit me during the whole #yesallwomen thing. I spoke to every one of my female friends, and they shared all kinds of stories and details that I'd ever have thought of without those conversation.
This is why I advocate for more compassionate conversations on these issues instead of "MeN bAd" diatribes that make men defensive. Because some men really will get it if they get the opportunity to process it. I've spoken to so many men over the past couple of years who had obviously never given even a shred of thought to how women's experiences in the world differ from theirs.
It's good to know that some of them are getting it. I'm more cautious these days, and ironically I'm outside the preferred rape demographic. I've thought about it, and I think it was those years on Medium with crazy feminists who saw rapists everywhere the way the crazy antiracists saw white supremacy everywhere :) Although I found the female hysterics a bit much sometime, I did understand that some were hypersensitive because of genuine prior abuse, and their stories made memore aware that maybe I'd taken safety and my own invincibility too much for granted. I don't tend to be stalked by men, even when I was younger and a flirtatious belly dancer. I just always walked around like I owned the whole damn place (whatever place I was in) and didn't act like a victim. I can't impress upon women how important it is to do that. Predatory men can sense who won't take their shit.
Lately I've been thinking about how to handle the legitimate crazies around here, if I ever get cornered into a conversation with one...speak nicely and kindly, try not to act afraid, try to distract them from...I dunno, the voices in their head or something. And if shit gets real I've got my Mighty Keychain O' Pain :)
“Predatory men can sense who won't take their shit.” Agreed. When I was in the military, I didn't really have any problems. I was approached and lightly harrassed a couple of times and they desisted when I asked them to. But, I had 2 things going for me: 1 - small breasts. Which helps. Also, I held this thought in my head all the time (and still do today): “I will fight you to the death if you attack me.” Predators do, indeed, pick up on this vibe.
Also, I will say that many, if not most instances of sexual harrassment and predatory behavior in the military involve alcohol. There are some outliers to be sure. But, most soldiers are good people.
I've sometimes wondered whether it happens to every woman. I have a writer friend who's one of the most badass 70-year-old bitches you've ever seen, and a military veteran. She was raped multiple times. It seems to be pretty common, AFAICT.
Perhaps not every woman, but a concerning percentage. I was never attacked sexually as an adult woman. Only as a very young child. Probably why I am so fierce about it never happening again. I am the kind of person that if I was unable to fend off an attack for some reason, I would pursue and kill the perp without compunction, knowing that I would spend the rest of my days in prison.
Oh my good Lord, I love your screen name!
People should use language they want, not what someone else wants. In essence, if someone wants to call a transwoman a "she", that is their prerogative. If someone is compelled to call a transwoman a "she" for fear of social, political, economic or other repercussions, that is wrong. Unfortunately, the whole pronoun thing is a slippery slope, the same people who want you to use certain pronouns - which defy reality, also want you to believe that men can somehow become women by simply "feeling" like one, donning make up, wig and spinny dress.
Yes, there's an absolutely excellent article called "pronouns are Rohypnol" that was removed from Medium a few years back. It really lays out the argument against pronouns perfectly (which I guess is why the powers that be at Medium removed it).
Where we've gone wrong is the idea that pronoun "preferences" should be compulsory in any way. There are certainly some trans people, especially trans men, who pass so convincingly that it would just be obstinate to refer to them by their "sex based" pronoun. But that doesn't mean losing sight of reality in cases where it matters.
I once made the comparison to adoptive parents. We call a child's adoptive mother their mother. We don't add "adoptive" every time. But we know they're not genetically related and don't pretend they are. We recognise that it would be wildly irresponsible for the mother to tell a doctor they were related in the context of genetic conditions. Language is flexible enough to allow (optional) compassionate fudges I think. But they shouldn't be used to hide the truth.
I don't recall if I mentioned this before on this substack, but here is my take: have you heard of Emperor Joshua Norton? He lived in San Francisco in the 1800s. He convinced himself that he was the emperor of the United States, because in his opinion the United States needed some fixing. And he was just the man to do it. Most of his fellow citizens simply went along with it. He was harmless. But nobody thought he had any authority at all. They just let him be. And so this is my view on transgenders. But, and this is crucial, only adults can make this decision about themselves or other adults.
But your example relates in no way to the trans issue. Transwomen who insinuate themselves into women’s spaces, rape shelters, prisons, change rooms, sports, etc are not harmless. Nor is the indoctrination of children to believe they can simply choose their gender, like one chooses a pair of shoes. Nor is it harmless to change language to accommodate trans ideology at the expense of reality and women. There is institutional capture in many areas. Eg: only women have periods, only women give birth, women breast feed - there is no such thing as chest feeding, women have vulvas - not front holes. There is a very, very long list of harms.
I in no way mean any disrespect to you or any person or group society needs to protect. Joshua Norton did not try to harm a soul (to my knowledge. ) And before this ludicrous trans activism, there was not a concerted push to invade women's spaces. Before this insane activism, transgenders lived in their own space. That was what was available, and I believe it was just. Leave them be and they would leave the rest of society be. But now they insist that the rest of the world redefine themselves to accommodate them. So on that fundamental level, you and I agree completely. There are transgendered people in this world, and no amount of legislation or proselytizing will make them go away. Let them occupy their space and no other. I'm fine with that. The world does not need to change to accommodate anyone.
The comedian replacing "cis women" with "women women" is brilliant. It is my new prefix.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1533577957442634
"And that if they don’t pass as women, they shouldn’t be in the women’s bathroom or any other women’s space."...
Just to complicate things:
I am a lesbian, and have been an out one for the last forty-odd years. And, yes, they have been pretty odd (ba-da boom!). In my twenties up through my forties, I--a natural woman--dressed and looked more like a young gay man. It was the era of the androgynous dyke, and I had short hair, dressed in jeans and a motorcycle jacket, wore no makeup nor jewelry. I'm tall and have a low voice as well. I occasionally got hit on or harassed when I was out and about, a passing pick-up truck screamed "faggot" at me once, before it doubled back to do it again. I was both alarmed and amused. Alarmed because the doubling-back could have been the start of a seriously violent episode, amused because they got not only my gender but my orientation wrong.
In addition, I was routinely challenged when using public restrooms. I developed a phobia about using them, it was so common to get the fish-eye from some other woman when entering the bathroom, and I was always worried they would raise a stink, forcing me to ask them if they wished me to drop my pants so they could inspect my genitals for approval.
So this whole thing about transgender women using public restrooms has had me puzzled for a while.
And these days, I have long hair again and no longer dress exclusively in men's clothes so I rarely am mistaken for a man in public.
Yep, I’ve heard a few stories about women being challenged in female bathrooms. But in every case I’ve ever heard of, as soon as they spoke to the person or got a good look at them, the situation was resolved.
We’re extremely well evolved to tell the difference between males and females. And I think it’s pretty rare that anyone cares enough to challenge at all (correct me if I’m wrong).
The issue is those cases where it’s very clearly a man in a women’s bathroom. The wider issue of homophobia, sadly, is harder to solve.
At a public restroom at Sunset Point on the way back from the Grand Canyon my sister told be that when she went into to women's room, she encountered a very Butch woman and thought she had gone into the men's room and let out an "Oh, my God!" before realizing her error. She said she was certain that the lady in question knew what that was about. My sister felt bad about it, but in retrospect, the masculine appearance was purposeful. This was before the age of trans.
It happens. You develop a somewhat thick skin about it eventually.
Gotta love that she complains about your use of talking points and lack of evidence, while responding with only talking points and lack of evidence.
Just last night I stumbled across a screen shot of a series of tweets I had found when I was still on Facebook. A few years ago, when the mantra "trans women are women" began to be posted and tweeted in huge numbers overnight, and people were still new to the concept and unafraid to ask questions about it, and even disagree, there began this online argument: people who didn't believe the mantra would make points about objective reality and truth. The phrase "2+2=4" was a very popular example of this objective reality.
The preachers of the mantra went into overdrive trying to come up with examples that prove that 2+2 doesn't always equal 4. It was astonishing, how people were twisting themselves into nonsensical positions to invent these examples.
I had forgotten all about that chapter in the insane cultural phenomenon until I found that screen shot last night.
"people who didn't believe the mantra would make points about objective reality and truth. The phrase "2+2=4" was a very popular example of this objective reality."
Haha! I remember this! I mentioned it in an article a few years back. And yes, I'm having a fascinating conversation about objective reality at the moment. It'll make an appearance here at some point. It's been a real lightbulb moment for me.
"The “trans debate” is easily the most insane cultural phenomenon I’ve ever seen." Steve I agree fully, so I am not getting involved in it at all from a definition perspective. I am a heterosexual woman, who has been menaced far more in my lifetime by heterosexual men, not pretending to be anything else or anyone else. Here's MY definition, that I live by. (You don't have to nor does anyone else.)
Trans people are persons first, when they are genuinely transgender. Every person on the gender spectrum is a person first. That is my view. I'm sticking to it and behaving accordingly.
"I am a heterosexual woman, who has been menaced far more in my lifetime by heterosexual men"
Yes, I think this is almost every woman's experience. There are, after all, orders of magnitude more men than trans women. So the law of averages demands that you'd have more negative experiences with men. The issue is a certain class of men being allowed into women's spaces on nothing more than the honour system.
I'm a person first too. I've never behaved inappropriately towards a woman and I never would. I'm kind to animals and give money to charity. I'm still not welcome in women's spaces. And I understand completely why. As I've said many times, the fact that males are asked to stay out of certain female spaces is not discrimination. And while I think that trans women mean we need more nuance than in the case of someone like me, the issue here is the very deliberate attempt to remove all of that nuance.