"or, as you noted, the group they are directed at can embrace them and make it their own"
No, there's a subtle difference here. I'm not suggesting black people embrace the word at all. This isn't about "taking it back". Any more than white people "took back" words like "honky" or "cracker".
"or, as you noted, the group they are directed at can embrace them and make it their own"
No, there's a subtle difference here. I'm not suggesting black people embrace the word at all. This isn't about "taking it back". Any more than white people "took back" words like "honky" or "cracker".
The reason we don't freak out when somebody says these words to a white person, the reason we write them without hyphens, is that white people don't believe in their power. They don't believe that there's a word that demeans them for having white skin. Because they fundamentally don't believe there's anything wrong with having white skin. So the words are meaningless as attacks.
This is the mindset I want everybody, black and white, to develop about black skin too. I want the word to fall out of use, just as "honky" and "cracker" have, because we stop believing in their power. It's actually black people who need to take the lead on this. But it would be great if people like H also considered their attitudes when they challenge people about it. Right now, even though his heart is in the right place, his attitude affirms the idea that there's something wrong with being black. My point is that there's something wrong with people who believe this.
I hear you - a better world awaits all with that mindset. e.g. I don't get pressed or aggrieved if a 4 year old tells me I'm "stupid" or my jacket is "ugly" - their evaluation means little to me, and I happen to enjoy my intellect (and jacket). One of those variables is mutable (clothes), but the other is immutable (intellect, arguably). And so it goes with traits like skin color, etc. We give it power by reacting to it. I can't help but think much of this behavior originates from groups that don't play or socialize with a broad group of people until later in life. That's not germane to your exchange with H though. I had all the petty racism from 7 year olds, and then I decided it just didn't bother me at some point. I don't recall exactly when, but I realized these were largely low-resolution people who had nothing else going on - their opinions no longer mattered.
"I don't get pressed or aggrieved if a 4 year old tells me I'm "stupid" or my jacket is "ugly" - their evaluation means little to me, and I happen to enjoy my intellect (and jacket)"
😅 I'm aware that I'm in serious danger of becoming a bore here, but this still isn't it.
It's not that the opinion of racists doesn't matter to me. It's not that they couldn't say anything to offend me or that I see them as children. It's that by attacking the colour of my skin, they're trying to offend me about something I'm completely neutral about (or if anything, which I think is a positive). The insult makes no sense.
As I said to Mark below, it's as if they're trying to attack me because of the number of creases on my palm, or the number of folds in my ear. Not only would I not be upset by these "attacks", I'd be *confused* by them. I'd very likely laugh at them.
Whereas if they attacked something I'm insecure about, as much as I might try to pretend to laugh it off, even if I was able to fool everybody into thinking I didn't care, their words would likely find a target.
At best, I think most people's ideas about dealing with the n-word are of this second type. About pretending not to be hurt. About getting good at pretending that the words didn't find their target. But I'm talking about *removing the target*. I'm talking about getting to a point where an insult based on the colour of our skin is confusing. Just as it would be for most white people.
Again, this is really the work of black people. We have to carefully examine our attitudes to this word and racist "insults" in general. But I also want white people to absorb this thinking, because people like H, though his heart is in the right place, is still approaching the n-word from a perspective of defending black people instead of pointing out how ridiculous racist beliefs are.
If you think about it, H's approach, though well intentioned, *affirms* racist ideas.
Thanks Steve - no, you're never a bore - it's always interesting to get a bit of insight into how people think. A few more replies and our dialogue will be worthy subject matter for a post, lmao. I've been the recipient of racial slurs a few times (confusingly for a few different races!), and my prior response is how I tended to frame things. However, if I am understanding you correctly, I see that there is still a pernicious fiction embedded in de-emphasizing the person wielding the imprecation instead of the so-called slur itself. My color, your color, the density and type of melanocytes per cubic centimeter in general isn't a topic worthy of insecurity, so the insult itself is confusing. It's so much happenstance, like our height, or eye color, or what have you. If it were something I had control over and felt insecure about (let's say I've got some pandemic pounds), then the derogation would have more import. I would still have the option of ignoring the person doing it, or embracing it, but that's different than what you're getting at if I grok you correctly.
"I see that there is still a pernicious fiction embedded in de-emphasizing the person wielding the imprecation instead of the so-called slur itself. My color, your color, the density and type of melanocytes per cubic centimeter in general isn't a topic worthy of insecurity, so the insult itself is confusing"
Yep! This is exactly it. To go back to H, imagine his friend was going around to people and saying, "Ha, look at you, you've got less than seven creases on your palm. You suck!"
H's instinct wouldn't be to say, "Hey! Not cool man, you can't say that!" it would be to say, "What the hell are you talking about? Do you realise how stupid you sound?!"
H's friend's hypothetical insult could *only* be offensive if the insult-ee had somehow absorbed the idea that having less than seven creases on their palm is a bad thing. And the instinct to defend them rather than ridicule his friend would *only* exist because H had absorbed those ideas too.
Now, H's friend is still trying to offend people. There's nothing wrong with telling him to stop, even if his insults aren't effective. In fact it's a good thing. But *how* we tell him to stop says a lot about our own beliefs and attitudes.
"or, as you noted, the group they are directed at can embrace them and make it their own"
No, there's a subtle difference here. I'm not suggesting black people embrace the word at all. This isn't about "taking it back". Any more than white people "took back" words like "honky" or "cracker".
The reason we don't freak out when somebody says these words to a white person, the reason we write them without hyphens, is that white people don't believe in their power. They don't believe that there's a word that demeans them for having white skin. Because they fundamentally don't believe there's anything wrong with having white skin. So the words are meaningless as attacks.
This is the mindset I want everybody, black and white, to develop about black skin too. I want the word to fall out of use, just as "honky" and "cracker" have, because we stop believing in their power. It's actually black people who need to take the lead on this. But it would be great if people like H also considered their attitudes when they challenge people about it. Right now, even though his heart is in the right place, his attitude affirms the idea that there's something wrong with being black. My point is that there's something wrong with people who believe this.
I hear you - a better world awaits all with that mindset. e.g. I don't get pressed or aggrieved if a 4 year old tells me I'm "stupid" or my jacket is "ugly" - their evaluation means little to me, and I happen to enjoy my intellect (and jacket). One of those variables is mutable (clothes), but the other is immutable (intellect, arguably). And so it goes with traits like skin color, etc. We give it power by reacting to it. I can't help but think much of this behavior originates from groups that don't play or socialize with a broad group of people until later in life. That's not germane to your exchange with H though. I had all the petty racism from 7 year olds, and then I decided it just didn't bother me at some point. I don't recall exactly when, but I realized these were largely low-resolution people who had nothing else going on - their opinions no longer mattered.
"I don't get pressed or aggrieved if a 4 year old tells me I'm "stupid" or my jacket is "ugly" - their evaluation means little to me, and I happen to enjoy my intellect (and jacket)"
😅 I'm aware that I'm in serious danger of becoming a bore here, but this still isn't it.
It's not that the opinion of racists doesn't matter to me. It's not that they couldn't say anything to offend me or that I see them as children. It's that by attacking the colour of my skin, they're trying to offend me about something I'm completely neutral about (or if anything, which I think is a positive). The insult makes no sense.
As I said to Mark below, it's as if they're trying to attack me because of the number of creases on my palm, or the number of folds in my ear. Not only would I not be upset by these "attacks", I'd be *confused* by them. I'd very likely laugh at them.
Whereas if they attacked something I'm insecure about, as much as I might try to pretend to laugh it off, even if I was able to fool everybody into thinking I didn't care, their words would likely find a target.
At best, I think most people's ideas about dealing with the n-word are of this second type. About pretending not to be hurt. About getting good at pretending that the words didn't find their target. But I'm talking about *removing the target*. I'm talking about getting to a point where an insult based on the colour of our skin is confusing. Just as it would be for most white people.
Again, this is really the work of black people. We have to carefully examine our attitudes to this word and racist "insults" in general. But I also want white people to absorb this thinking, because people like H, though his heart is in the right place, is still approaching the n-word from a perspective of defending black people instead of pointing out how ridiculous racist beliefs are.
If you think about it, H's approach, though well intentioned, *affirms* racist ideas.
Thanks Steve - no, you're never a bore - it's always interesting to get a bit of insight into how people think. A few more replies and our dialogue will be worthy subject matter for a post, lmao. I've been the recipient of racial slurs a few times (confusingly for a few different races!), and my prior response is how I tended to frame things. However, if I am understanding you correctly, I see that there is still a pernicious fiction embedded in de-emphasizing the person wielding the imprecation instead of the so-called slur itself. My color, your color, the density and type of melanocytes per cubic centimeter in general isn't a topic worthy of insecurity, so the insult itself is confusing. It's so much happenstance, like our height, or eye color, or what have you. If it were something I had control over and felt insecure about (let's say I've got some pandemic pounds), then the derogation would have more import. I would still have the option of ignoring the person doing it, or embracing it, but that's different than what you're getting at if I grok you correctly.
"I see that there is still a pernicious fiction embedded in de-emphasizing the person wielding the imprecation instead of the so-called slur itself. My color, your color, the density and type of melanocytes per cubic centimeter in general isn't a topic worthy of insecurity, so the insult itself is confusing"
Yep! This is exactly it. To go back to H, imagine his friend was going around to people and saying, "Ha, look at you, you've got less than seven creases on your palm. You suck!"
H's instinct wouldn't be to say, "Hey! Not cool man, you can't say that!" it would be to say, "What the hell are you talking about? Do you realise how stupid you sound?!"
H's friend's hypothetical insult could *only* be offensive if the insult-ee had somehow absorbed the idea that having less than seven creases on their palm is a bad thing. And the instinct to defend them rather than ridicule his friend would *only* exist because H had absorbed those ideas too.
Now, H's friend is still trying to offend people. There's nothing wrong with telling him to stop, even if his insults aren't effective. In fact it's a good thing. But *how* we tell him to stop says a lot about our own beliefs and attitudes.
Really appreciate the exchange. Thank you.