Sometimes a shift in perspective is illuminating. So in my article, Trans Men: The Great Clarifiers Of The “Trans Debate”, I wrote about all the ways that trans men, who are often ignored in debates about trans rights, illuminate questions of trans inclusion.
"Surely those men are just there to pee, like everybody else and if they behave in a threatening manner, get him removed?"
This is what I find most frustrating about all this. The trans activists understand the "TERF" arguments about women's safety perfectly well. Trans women spout them when they talk about feeling "unsafe" in men's spaces. Passing trans men spout them when they talk about how obviously inappropriate it is for them to use women's spaces. CJ spouts them when talking about not feeling safe in the men's bathroom.
They just refuse to extend this same courtesy to women. In fact, not so long ago, I saw a video about a football team made up entirely of trans men. And they'd made a point of being trans men only so that they wouldn't have to share the locker room with any men and risk feeling "uncomfortable."
Not always. A friend of mine was molested by a man in a public restroom when he was 14. And when he told his mother she accused him of lying. <rolls eyes> La plus ca change...
Exactly. I often point out that the exclusion of men in female spaces extends to gay men and old, frail men and disabled men and even to young boys past the age of 10 or so.
It's not that these men are a threat to women or that they themselves are not in danger in male spaces. It's that the less absolutists a ban on men in women's spaces is, the more likely it is to be meaningless.
Or just separate the predatory ones from the safe ones. Like, a Mark of the Beast that appears on a man's forehead when he approaches women or children. ;) Or *anyone* who's violent.
I have enough air travel miles to reach the moon (OK, not quite) and I always feel for women standing in long lines to use the WC in airports. Would they prefer, without regard to "trans" to use the Men's room rather than pee in their pants? Of course they would and if one approached me and said she was going to pee in her pants before getting in the Women's room I would escort her into the Men's room and doubt that I would have to get in a fist fight with anyone about it.
Double standard? Hell yes, I believe in double standards. Equality is BS when it comes to a woman on the throne with her pants below her knees and a man with his skirt raised if they are the only ones behind a closed door.
It didn't bother me in the least to have a lust worthy passing katoey use a urinal next to me in a public WC in Bangkok. Would there be anything wrong with a woman being uncomfortable hearing the unmistakable sound of a man urinating in the stall next to them? When the junk is out, plumbing rules. Call be whatever name you wish.
"Double standard? Hell yes, I believe in double standards"
One of the great ironies of trans discourse is that so many trans women seem to lack the slightest empathy for the ways in which men's and women's experiences of the world differ. I've had so many conversations with trans women and "allies" who were totally unable to understand why certain "double standards" exists when it comes to male/female interactions.
It's almost as if being a woman is nothing to do with some pornified idea in a man's head and actually relates to the experience of moving around the world in a particular body.
Yes. This is what contributes to the concept of erasure. Perhaps they are not consciously trying to do this. But, the results of their beliefs and actions are that women, as a distinct sex, are being erased. And the hard-fought rights we've achieved are also being erased.
This demonstrates just how easy it is to gaslight so many women on the left. It's male thinking to believe that transwomen won't hurt women, that women shouldnt' be afraid of strange men, and the most stubbornly-clung-to male view of women of all, that we should go out with them as soon as they ask because he thinks she's attractive, and he doesn't understand she's only known him three and a half minutes. Careful women will want to talk to the guy at least for a little while to get a bead on whether he seems safe or not.
FFS how have we gotten to the point where we're even debating this??? Sometimes I think feminism really is doomed just because too many women, including some of the loudest 'feminists', are so easily manipulated by men in dresses.
"FFS how have we gotten to the point where we're even debating this???"
I ask myself this question at least once a week😅😭 It's absolutely wild to be sitting around constructing logical arguments for why males and females need separate sports or why a 2-year-old boy who likes dresses isn't a girl or why intersex people have nothing to do with whether a man can become a woman just by saying so.
I can't believe how many otherwise smart people have lost their minds on this. Frankly, ten years ago, I wouldn't have believed any number above 0.
As this cult gets weirder we’re no seeing “trans women” with beards and eye shadow. They’re not even making a pretense of passing.
The first thing to remember is that this isn’t a disease. It’s a choice. Somehow we’ve been persuaded that it’s preferable for all of society to go along with a delusion than to treat the deluded back to sanity.
And I think it’s already gone far enough
I am a gay man. The “trans” are not my allies in oppression. They have become oppressors. They are my enemies.
Almost like they wish to play as women whilst retaining the priveleges of men. I saw a trans women the other day who was dressed as a women but swaggering the way men do as she walked. She wasn't even bothering to pass. It is highly disconcerting and very confusing. If you are truly dysphoric in the sense that you feel you are a woman, wouldn't you try harder to actually look and act like one? If not, what's the point?
CJ is doing a thorough job of dancing around a fundamental distinction that never seems to get brought up by gender activists: if trans men are men, then trans men are as equally prone to violence as "cis" men. The US Department of Justice estimates that men are three times more likely to commit a violent crime than women.
If trans men are truly men, then trans men are three times more likely to commit a violent crime than women.
And if trans women are truly women, then why do they retain their male propensity for violence? Why should 'passing' even matter? Are passing transwomen less prone to violence that women should feel differently about them? (I hope data on this question exists somewhere.) Lets keep the focus on the needs of vulnerable women.
I didn't get enough sleep last night and I had to give up reading this a quarter of the way through because translating "trans men" to "biological women" and vice versa is just too exhausting.
But I do have a simple solution.
Let the "trans" of both reversed sexes squat in the bushes and "wipe" with leaves. That solves everyone's problems (until they run out of dead leaves).,
They have made their choices, let them live with the consequences of those choices. And, please, nobody insult my intelligence telling me they're "just being their true selves." We aren't talking about people with GID, we're talking about a cult.
I'd say the test of how committed they are to getting along with others is to state the best solution is a third set of bathrooms. True transwomen will understand; the rest are the sexual fetishists and MRAs in drag.
"True transwomen will understand; the rest are the sexual fetishists and MRAs in drag."
I don't think this is true. As I said to CJ, trans women who pass are already using women's bathrooms. Because in a bathroom, your biological sex is largely irrelevant. It's how you look that governs whether you make people uncomfortable or not. In fact, I've seen several cases of butch women being challenged in bathrooms because they look too "manly."
But the cost and time involved in building a third set of bathrooms makes is a non-starter.
I think genuine trans women are happy with a sensible degree of safeguarding that weeds out the weirdos and the fetishists. Again, before self ID, nobody talked about trans inclusion, even though trans women had been using women's spaces for years before that.
On a trip back from the Grand Canyon we stopped at Sunset Point where there is a large set of restrooms. My sister walked into the women's room and encountered a very butch woman. Initially thinking she'd gone into the men's room she let it a loud "Oh my God!" before realizing the reality. She said that the butch woman obviously knew what that was about. They both said nothing further. What did she expect?
I once walked into the bathroom to take a pee when I was on a first date with someone (although he was already a friend, so we knew each other). As I was sitting there in the stall some dude walked in and started using the urinal while i was sitting there. I hoped he'd leave but it was a long pee...Mexican restaurant, beer ;) So finally I said, "Oops, I'm sorry, but I think I'm in the wrong bathroom!" "I think you are!" he said with a sense of humour. "I'll wait until you leave." I can't remember if I went to the ladies' to washup but when i came back my friend was laughing his ass off. "Why didn't you come get me if you saw I'd made a mistake?" I asked becaus he had. "Because it was too funny,' He said. Obviously he wan't worried about me getting raped and murdered in the loo in 1993 ;)
I overgeneralized a bit but that's what I believe about a lot of this bathroom drama. I actually can buy the notion that transwomen, however passable, may not feel safe in the men's room (maybe not Lia Thomas...he can kick anyone's ass). I can also believe transmen might be safer in the ladies' - *why* would they want to use the men's if they can't pass well? They walk in and announce wordlessly, "VAGINA HERE!" It's an invitation for abuse - not sanctioning or excusing that, just stating reality. Transwomen might well feel unsafe in the mens' too - same reason, as you pointed out, it's the maleness that's the problem, not the identity. I suspect if the public started taking the third bathroom seriously and started debating it, the problem might go away - a lot of 'transwomen' might suddenly lose interest in where they take a pee if it's really all about forcing women into submission.
CJ is concerned for her own safety in the men's room.
Surely those men are just there to pee, like everybody else and if they behave in a threatening manner, get him removed?
CJ is allowed to be scared in semi private spaces with potentially violent males. Transwomen similarly.
But little girls, frail elderly ladies, rape survivors, just plain ordinary everyday women are not.
"Surely those men are just there to pee, like everybody else and if they behave in a threatening manner, get him removed?"
This is what I find most frustrating about all this. The trans activists understand the "TERF" arguments about women's safety perfectly well. Trans women spout them when they talk about feeling "unsafe" in men's spaces. Passing trans men spout them when they talk about how obviously inappropriate it is for them to use women's spaces. CJ spouts them when talking about not feeling safe in the men's bathroom.
They just refuse to extend this same courtesy to women. In fact, not so long ago, I saw a video about a football team made up entirely of trans men. And they'd made a point of being trans men only so that they wouldn't have to share the locker room with any men and risk feeling "uncomfortable."
Not always. A friend of mine was molested by a man in a public restroom when he was 14. And when he told his mother she accused him of lying. <rolls eyes> La plus ca change...
We'd all welcome a way to separate the predatory males away from the innocent people. We can't do that 100% but we can do a bit.
Exactly. I often point out that the exclusion of men in female spaces extends to gay men and old, frail men and disabled men and even to young boys past the age of 10 or so.
It's not that these men are a threat to women or that they themselves are not in danger in male spaces. It's that the less absolutists a ban on men in women's spaces is, the more likely it is to be meaningless.
Or just separate the predatory ones from the safe ones. Like, a Mark of the Beast that appears on a man's forehead when he approaches women or children. ;) Or *anyone* who's violent.
I have enough air travel miles to reach the moon (OK, not quite) and I always feel for women standing in long lines to use the WC in airports. Would they prefer, without regard to "trans" to use the Men's room rather than pee in their pants? Of course they would and if one approached me and said she was going to pee in her pants before getting in the Women's room I would escort her into the Men's room and doubt that I would have to get in a fist fight with anyone about it.
Double standard? Hell yes, I believe in double standards. Equality is BS when it comes to a woman on the throne with her pants below her knees and a man with his skirt raised if they are the only ones behind a closed door.
It didn't bother me in the least to have a lust worthy passing katoey use a urinal next to me in a public WC in Bangkok. Would there be anything wrong with a woman being uncomfortable hearing the unmistakable sound of a man urinating in the stall next to them? When the junk is out, plumbing rules. Call be whatever name you wish.
"Double standard? Hell yes, I believe in double standards"
One of the great ironies of trans discourse is that so many trans women seem to lack the slightest empathy for the ways in which men's and women's experiences of the world differ. I've had so many conversations with trans women and "allies" who were totally unable to understand why certain "double standards" exists when it comes to male/female interactions.
It's almost as if being a woman is nothing to do with some pornified idea in a man's head and actually relates to the experience of moving around the world in a particular body.
If they don't understand a woman's point of view on this, in what regard are they identifying as a woman while thinking like a toxic man?
🎯
Yes. This is what contributes to the concept of erasure. Perhaps they are not consciously trying to do this. But, the results of their beliefs and actions are that women, as a distinct sex, are being erased. And the hard-fought rights we've achieved are also being erased.
You speak common sense. No wonder so many TRAs and their handmaidens dislike you.
This demonstrates just how easy it is to gaslight so many women on the left. It's male thinking to believe that transwomen won't hurt women, that women shouldnt' be afraid of strange men, and the most stubbornly-clung-to male view of women of all, that we should go out with them as soon as they ask because he thinks she's attractive, and he doesn't understand she's only known him three and a half minutes. Careful women will want to talk to the guy at least for a little while to get a bead on whether he seems safe or not.
FFS how have we gotten to the point where we're even debating this??? Sometimes I think feminism really is doomed just because too many women, including some of the loudest 'feminists', are so easily manipulated by men in dresses.
"FFS how have we gotten to the point where we're even debating this???"
I ask myself this question at least once a week😅😭 It's absolutely wild to be sitting around constructing logical arguments for why males and females need separate sports or why a 2-year-old boy who likes dresses isn't a girl or why intersex people have nothing to do with whether a man can become a woman just by saying so.
I can't believe how many otherwise smart people have lost their minds on this. Frankly, ten years ago, I wouldn't have believed any number above 0.
As this cult gets weirder we’re no seeing “trans women” with beards and eye shadow. They’re not even making a pretense of passing.
The first thing to remember is that this isn’t a disease. It’s a choice. Somehow we’ve been persuaded that it’s preferable for all of society to go along with a delusion than to treat the deluded back to sanity.
And I think it’s already gone far enough
I am a gay man. The “trans” are not my allies in oppression. They have become oppressors. They are my enemies.
Almost like they wish to play as women whilst retaining the priveleges of men. I saw a trans women the other day who was dressed as a women but swaggering the way men do as she walked. She wasn't even bothering to pass. It is highly disconcerting and very confusing. If you are truly dysphoric in the sense that you feel you are a woman, wouldn't you try harder to actually look and act like one? If not, what's the point?
“ Almost like they wish to play as women whilst retaining the priveleges of men.”
This is pretty much a perfect description of the difference between transsexual women and transgender women.
Take a look at Musk's little shop of horrors, all the 6'4" fat guys crying that they keep getting "misgendered."
I carry a purse, I wear makeup, and still everyone calls me "sir." *sob*
You should've thought of that earlier, moron
No need to be gay to understand that.
My sentiments as a woman.
CJ is doing a thorough job of dancing around a fundamental distinction that never seems to get brought up by gender activists: if trans men are men, then trans men are as equally prone to violence as "cis" men. The US Department of Justice estimates that men are three times more likely to commit a violent crime than women.
If trans men are truly men, then trans men are three times more likely to commit a violent crime than women.
And if trans women are truly women, then why do they retain their male propensity for violence? Why should 'passing' even matter? Are passing transwomen less prone to violence that women should feel differently about them? (I hope data on this question exists somewhere.) Lets keep the focus on the needs of vulnerable women.
Exactly.
But they ain't...
I didn't get enough sleep last night and I had to give up reading this a quarter of the way through because translating "trans men" to "biological women" and vice versa is just too exhausting.
But I do have a simple solution.
Let the "trans" of both reversed sexes squat in the bushes and "wipe" with leaves. That solves everyone's problems (until they run out of dead leaves).,
They have made their choices, let them live with the consequences of those choices. And, please, nobody insult my intelligence telling me they're "just being their true selves." We aren't talking about people with GID, we're talking about a cult.
I'd say the test of how committed they are to getting along with others is to state the best solution is a third set of bathrooms. True transwomen will understand; the rest are the sexual fetishists and MRAs in drag.
"True transwomen will understand; the rest are the sexual fetishists and MRAs in drag."
I don't think this is true. As I said to CJ, trans women who pass are already using women's bathrooms. Because in a bathroom, your biological sex is largely irrelevant. It's how you look that governs whether you make people uncomfortable or not. In fact, I've seen several cases of butch women being challenged in bathrooms because they look too "manly."
But the cost and time involved in building a third set of bathrooms makes is a non-starter.
I think genuine trans women are happy with a sensible degree of safeguarding that weeds out the weirdos and the fetishists. Again, before self ID, nobody talked about trans inclusion, even though trans women had been using women's spaces for years before that.
On a trip back from the Grand Canyon we stopped at Sunset Point where there is a large set of restrooms. My sister walked into the women's room and encountered a very butch woman. Initially thinking she'd gone into the men's room she let it a loud "Oh my God!" before realizing the reality. She said that the butch woman obviously knew what that was about. They both said nothing further. What did she expect?
I once walked into the bathroom to take a pee when I was on a first date with someone (although he was already a friend, so we knew each other). As I was sitting there in the stall some dude walked in and started using the urinal while i was sitting there. I hoped he'd leave but it was a long pee...Mexican restaurant, beer ;) So finally I said, "Oops, I'm sorry, but I think I'm in the wrong bathroom!" "I think you are!" he said with a sense of humour. "I'll wait until you leave." I can't remember if I went to the ladies' to washup but when i came back my friend was laughing his ass off. "Why didn't you come get me if you saw I'd made a mistake?" I asked becaus he had. "Because it was too funny,' He said. Obviously he wan't worried about me getting raped and murdered in the loo in 1993 ;)
I overgeneralized a bit but that's what I believe about a lot of this bathroom drama. I actually can buy the notion that transwomen, however passable, may not feel safe in the men's room (maybe not Lia Thomas...he can kick anyone's ass). I can also believe transmen might be safer in the ladies' - *why* would they want to use the men's if they can't pass well? They walk in and announce wordlessly, "VAGINA HERE!" It's an invitation for abuse - not sanctioning or excusing that, just stating reality. Transwomen might well feel unsafe in the mens' too - same reason, as you pointed out, it's the maleness that's the problem, not the identity. I suspect if the public started taking the third bathroom seriously and started debating it, the problem might go away - a lot of 'transwomen' might suddenly lose interest in where they take a pee if it's really all about forcing women into submission.
How many billions of dollars do you want to spend to honor the demands of spoiled brats?
I say, none.
Like all fads, this one will die out.
I am quite serious. Let them squat in the bushes.
Great article. Your last statement to CJ is the point that should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer,