Non-Passing Trans Women Are NOT The Same As Cis Men

Sometimes, a shift in perspective is illuminating. 

While the greatest minds of his time thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, Copernicus realised it was the other way around. While his contemporaries dreamed up the "miasma theory" to explain cholera transmission, John Snow thought to examine London’s water pumps. And while almost all conversations about trans people focus on trans women, I thought it might be interesting to consider trans men. 

In my article, Trans Men: The Great Clarifiers Of The “Trans Debate”, I wrote about all the ways that trans men, who are often ignored in discussions about trans rights, illuminate questions of trans inclusion. 

For example, is it fair for trans women to compete against women in sports? No. And we know this because trans men are at the same unfair disadvantage when competing against men.

Should trans women be housed in women’s prisons? No (at least, not pre-op). And we know this because nobody with their sanity intact is campaigning for trans men to be housed in men’s prisons.

Should trans women who don’t “pass” use women’s bathrooms? No. And we know this because trans men who don’t yet pass (in other words, who still look like women) wouldn’t dream of using men’s bathrooms. 

CJ, a trans man, thought I was looking at the issue all wrong.

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CJ:

You intentionally misrepresented the trans man who was sent to the women's prison. He said in the article you linked that his experience in the women's prison was worse.

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Steve QJ:

“He said in the article you linked that his experience in the women's prison was worse.”

I didn’t say anything about which was worse. The point I was making is that as soon as they discovered they were dealing with a trans man, they immediately understood that this female person needed to be in a female prison. This is standard policy. And no trans activists object. But the same logic isn't applied to trans women.

Prison sucks. I'm not surprised to hear about bullying based on gender identity or on skin colour or on any other characteristic. We probably agree that this needs to be dealt with. But it's separate from the question of whether prisons should continue to be sex segregated. Which, again, is required by the Geneva convention.

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CJ:

The state of Texas decided to put him in female prison - they're not known for having trans peoples' best interests in mind. Prison isn't a safe place to be, and from his account the issue largely wasn't the other inmates, but the staff abusing their power and also not protecting him from other inmates. I agree with your point that everyone is scared of prison. Prisons need reformed. That doesn't make gender identity less valid.

The truth is that more men are incarcerated for violent crimes than women, and men are also more likely to commit violent acts in prison than women. Cis men are scared to go to prison - of course trans men are scared too.

Using trans men as a argumentative pawn to suggest that trans women are a threat to women's rights is gross. As a trans man, I don't agree with your argument or your suppositions on the opinions of other trans men.

As a trans man living in the south, I can't wait until I pass well enough to use the men's room safely. Myself and most other trans men I talk to (I talk to hundreds of trans men in online groups on a regular basis) want to use the men's room (most do use the men's room even if they don't consistently pass, unless living in a red state). We are actually more prone to UTI's and kidney infections because we tend to avoid ALL public restrooms that are not single-stall. Why? A scared woman might get her husband/boyfriend/friend/brother/dad/a security guard to "do something about it."

The biggest social threat are violent cis men. In prisons, in bathrooms, in schools, and in homes. Trans women are NOT men and are NOT the problem.

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Steve QJ:

“The biggest social threat are violent cis men.”

No. The biggest social threat are violent males.

I'm not saying that all males, trans or not, are a threat. I know very well they aren't. But almost all violent threats are male. And all available evidence suggests that trans women don't commit violent crime at lower rates than any other males.

And yes, you make exactly the same point I do about bathrooms:

"I can't wait until I pass well enough to use the men's room safely."

As I say in the article, bathrooms are segregated by gender, not sex. Trans women who pass already use the women's bathroom without issue. But trans women who don't pass will make women feel unsafe in the women's bathroom for exactly the same reason you don't currently feel safe using the men's bathroom.

I'm not using trans men as pawns at all. Even if I wanted to delegitimise trans women, which I don't, the potential conflicts between trans women's rights and women's rights are plain for everybody with basic common sense to see. They're plain in the simple fact that I can stump anybody who believes in this ideology just by claiming to identify as a woman and asking if that really makes me one.

So no, I'm not trying to delegitimise trans people. Truly I'm not. All I'm saying is that women's rights are obviously under threat if there isn't a standard of womanhood that can't be spoofed by any man who utters the magic words, "I'm a woman." And that I think there has to be a compassionate, reality-based conversation about how best to resolve this problem.

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CJ:

"But trans women who don't pass will make women feel unsafe in the women's bathroom for exactly the same reason you don't currently feel safe using the men's bathroom."

"All I'm saying is that women's rights are obviously under threat if there isn't a standard of womanhood that can't be spoofed by any man who utters the magic words, "I'm a woman.""

This isn't the same at all. Women purport to be afraid of men "posing" as women and using transness as a false identity to attack women.

If you were to claim, "I'm a woman," in bad faith, it would be clear you are claiming it in bad faith. There is a difference between trans women and cis men. Non-passing trans women are NOT the same as cis men.

The whole reason trans women want to enter the bathroom is to go to the bathroom. The reason a cis man would want to pretend to be a woman to go to the woman's room is either 1) to do something nefarious or 2) make some sort of political statement.

I've used the bathroom with trans women. I've never felt scared because there was nothing to be afraid of - because they were there to pee and check their makeup like everyone else.

The reason cis women feel scared of trans women is because they have a lack of understanding, sometimes religious bigotry, and a sensationalized idea of what being trans is due to the media.

It's very, very similar to the way straight men used to be "afraid" of sharing a bathroom with gay men during the height of the AIDS epidemic. It's baseless fear-mongering.

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Steve QJ:

“If you were to claim, "I'm a woman," in bad faith, it would be clear you are claiming it in bad faith.”

Okay, great. Here we get to the nub of it. How would it be clear? Please, please answer this question. Because typically, when I ask somebody to talk me through the ramifications of what they’re saying on this topic, they run away.

When Isla Bryson suddenly claimed to be a woman during a trial for double rape, I would have thought it was obvious that this was in bad faith. Yet the Scottish legal system moved "her," albeit temporarily, to a women's prison. And the then first minister of Scotland tied herself in linguistic knots trying to defend this obviously insane decision.

When Kayla Lemieux turned up at school wearing Z-cup prosthetic breasts and claiming it was an expression of her gender identity, I would have thought it was obvious this was a bad faith attempt to justify flaunting a fetish in public. But apparently, the school board could see no reason why this person shouldn't be allowed to continue doing so around children. This despite the protests of students and parents. And despite the fact that Kayla has been photographed walking around presenting as a man, sans cartoon breasts, when not at school.

So please, what mechanism would you use to determine whether I was making the claim in bad faith? Assuming, obviously, we hadn't had this conversation, and you just met me on the street. How would you decide? And how could we generalise your method out to wider society?

This is the question at the root of this whole issue.

And no, it's not baseless fear-mongering. There have been several instances of males who claim to be women, in prisons, in women's shelters, in changing rooms, in alleys, doing exactly what women "purport" to be afraid of. And what so many people in this bubble bury their head in the sand about and insist, despite all evidence to the contrary, “never happens.”

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CJ:

It's a complex issue but it's important to keep in mind that the number of trans people greatly outnumbers the number of people pretending to be trans for nefarious purposes.

If you and I met on the street, and you were presenting as a masculine-coded person, and you told me that you used she/her pronouns and went by the name Anna, I'd use that name and those pronouns for you. How would I be sure you were being honest? Well, I'd just have to assume you were being truthful until proven otherwise, which is what happens when meeting anyone.

Some trans people refer to being in public in "girl mode" and "boy mode." A trans woman may be "out" with family and friends but closeted at work. So, she would do "boy mode" for work - wearing men's clothes, using he/him pronouns and her birth name, etc. Trans people generally try use the bathrooms that correspond to their presentation at the time - so maybe she uses the women's room when she is out with family and friends in safe situations, but at work she still uses the men's room because she is presenting as male in that situation.

Very, very, very few non-passing trans people would use the bathroom or changing room that corresponds to their gender identity if they aren't currently presenting in a way that corresponds to their gender. I can't think of a single trans woman who would use the women's room in "boy mode."

Ultimately, I don't think it matters if someone is telling the truth about their identity unless/until they are acting in a threatening way.

ANYONE in a changing room or bathroom regardless of presentation or presumed sex should be removed and face consequences if they are acting in a way that poses a risk or threat to the other people in that space. Their actions in the space is what should inform the reaction.

Someone presenting as a man in a women's bathroom? Weird, but if he's going into a stall to pee I'm not going to think much of it. If he is lingering, trying to peek under or through stall doors, touching himself, etc. he is there for bad purposes and should not be there.

Would women in a women's prison feel threatened if a gay man was there? Probably not, because he likely wouldn't be acting in a way that makes the people there feel unsafe. Presenting as a male and having a penis isn't the issue, it's how he is interacting with people.

The teacher in question you linked to was given a warning as a male teacher for being (what reads as) misogynistic and difficult to work with. He then pretended to transition and the school for some reason still didn't take action. The school should have 1) required that nipples not be visible through clothing and 2) fired the teacher for the performance-related issues. I'm not sure how the law works in Canada but in the US it's very hard to prove sex-based discrimination in court since we have at-will employment, and the school firing the teacher for insubordination would make it very hard to argue that it was for gender discrimination.

The Karen White case - it seems like she has used her female name and been transitioning for 5 years. Okay, fine, but she's committed violent acts against women and men and seems generally unstable. If she is going to continue to pursue transition-related care, she should be put in some sort of secure area where she has no access to other inmates. It looks like they're transitioning her to a men's prison. I think she will likely have issues and attack inmates there too. Again, she should not be given access to other inmates.

Nonbinary person using women's changing room - fine, they were there to try on clothes.

Trans woman publicly exposing herself - regardless of identity, is engaging in harmful and illegal behavior and should be charged.

The issue is assuming that trans people are inherently less able to be trusted and that trans people are more likely to commit crimes than the wider population. People need to be held responsible for their behavior regardless of their identity.

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Steve QJ:

“How would I be sure you were being honest? Well, I'd just have to assume you were being truthful until proven otherwise, which is what happens when meeting anyone.”

Okay, so it wouldn't be clear that I was claiming it in bad faith, as you said earlier. Instead, you'd be willing to ignore your instincts and the evidence of your eyes, and assume I was trustworthy until I proved otherwise (that proof being me harming you or somebody else in some way).

And, of course, you're welcome to take this risk. But do you really not see that there are serious implications to imposing your personal boundaries on every woman and girl on the planet?

First, you’re saying that you don’t care if I, looking exactly as I do now, get naked in front of women and girls, as long as I’m not acting in "a threatening manner." But you're overlooking the fact that my mere presence in a female changing room would be threatening to many women.

And that's before you've even defined what you think "threatening" means. And what should happen if I do behave in a threatening manner. After all, making somebody feel threatened or uncomfortable isn't a crime in many cases. So after I've been kicked out of the women’s changing room, am I allowed to return? If not, how do you stop me from just moving on to a different changing room? These are the kinds of details I don't think you're considering.

You’re arguing that the boundaries of every single woman on Earth should be overlooked so that I can use a space that every objective measure in existence says I shouldn’t be using. That the whims of a very, very, very small proportion of people, as you put it, should take precedence over the comfort and safety of ~50% of humanity.

You’re arguing that I should be allowed to risk re-traumatising a sexual assault victim or frightening a child or just upsetting everybody in the room, because I’m not willing to use a male space, despite having a male body. 

And you're doing so based entirely on a claim that, by your own admission, everybody has to take a complete stranger's word for.

And again, you misrepresent my position. I don't presume that trans people are less trustworthy than the wider population at all. I presume that males are less trustworthy than females when it comes to violence and sexual assault. Actually, I don't presume it; every single piece of evidence in the world relating to violence and sexual predation confirms this fact.

So if you're arguing that males should now be allowed access to private female spaces, I think women are 100% correct to demand a more reliable safeguard than, "CJ doesn't mind this." Do you really think that's unreasonable or hateful?

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I'm not sure if people like CJ truly haven’t thought about this, or if they really believe that trans women undo a lifetime's worth of socialisation--and several lifetimes' worth of evolution--the moment they utter the magic words, "I identify as a woman.” But I’ve yet to speak to anybody who can meet obvious questions like those I asked above with anything close to a coherent answer. 

Instead, they convince themselves that the questions are hateful.

But they’re not hateful. As CJ puts it, they’re complex. And you solve complex issues by thinking them all the way through. You solve them by looking at them from a point of view other than your own. You solve them by seriously considering the possibility that you’re wrong.

I’m betting that that change of perspective would be illuminating.