"I would give it all away in a heartbeat to be allowed to feel comfortable and not expected to look, act or sound a certain way."
For me, this sentence is staggering. The writer is saying that they would rather harm their body than work through emotional discomfort.
A big part of passing from adolescence into adulthood is figuring out who you are, separate from everyone else's expectations of you. And it can be painful and hard. You can't avoid this or outsource this.
At the same time, geez. Cutting off your breasts so people won't expect you to look a certain way? Just show up to work or school in clean clothes and a washed face and that's it. Deodorant is a nice bonus. Everybody is not looking at you and thinking about you! That's how adolescents think. The truth is that everyone is thinking about themselves, not you.
Life is hard, but it's actually really easy too. Go outside, work in the garden, use your body and be a human animal on this planet. Find your joy!!
In the words of Auntie Mame, "Life's a banquet and most poor sons of bitches are starving to death."
"For me, this sentence is staggering. The writer is saying that they would rather harm their body than work through emotional discomfort."
No, I think it's more than that. She's saying that the expectations placed on her by society, and the attention she receives from some men (and in a different way, women), as a result of her anatomy are a burden. And she'd rather not have the anatomy if it meant she could be free of the expectations and attention.
She's an adult, she hasn't chosen to harm her body. Her problem, really, is with society. I think she has a really fair point there. I've seen on many occasions how women with big breasts in particular are treated. I've known girls who were shunned and assumed to be sluts by the women around them because they had big breasts. I've seen the constant attention and occasional groping from men. Then there are simple logistical concerns like how difficult it is to go running.
I think you're underestimating how much of an impact things like this can have on some women.
You're right, of course. After I posted my comment I felt bad about seeming to minimize her pain.
You are so right about how women with big breasts are treated. I've seen it in my own family, with my sister and daughter. My sister has always had to be careful with what clothes she wears, because, as she says, most things look "slutty" on her.
I had to deal with so much unwanted attention from boys and men from the age of 14 on. If I'm being honest, a lot of it was wanted too. I enjoyed the attention I got from being an attractive young woman. Sometimes I loved it. It was my super power.
Sometimes it was scary; I've been stalked and pretty badly harassed at work.
The constant attention slows down as you get older; by the time I was in my mid thirties the cat calling on the street and approaches from strangers had stopped. I had a brief re-adjustment period, where I felt invisible. But I quickly learned to love being more "incognito", and now, at 55, I really like it.
I do have a giant blind spot about all this- and need to do a lot more learning and introspection.
I dunno. I would ask if there's *any* creature in the Western world who *doesn't* have a problem or two dealing with "Society" (with a capital "S" ;-).
Give me name, rank and serial number. As well as email address so I can find out their secret.
Personally, I believe I've had worse problems dealing with Society than big breasts seem to cause. But that's just me. Others are skin-color. Ugliness. Political persuasion. WhatEVER.
Maybe I'm just hard-hearted, but when I gave up my own pity party, I found I was relieved beyond all expectation. And relieved of Society's expectations to boot, now that I think on it. Again, that's just me.
I read about a woman whose mother and grandmother both died of breast cancer before age 40. She was near-certain to come down with it and had a prophylactic double mastectomy.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment either😅
Women have double mastectomies for health reasons. They also have breast reductions because they're uncomfortable with the size and weight of their breasts. Or because they dislike the attention they attract. A friend of mine did that just a month ago as it happens. Some women get their breasts enhanced because they want *more* attention.
The way women respond to the expectations of society varies depending on the woman. I'm just saying I don't think T's response is unreasonable or even particularly uncommon.
Not uncommon? Are You serious, Steve? And I reread T's quotes. I'm making an assumption that You guys are talking about a mastectomy? It could be read differently:
"I would give it all away in a heartbeat to be allowed to feel comfortable and not expected to look, act or sound a certain way."
Something I learned a while ago, but just lately come to grasp a little, is the concept of personal power. T is giving up *way* too much-a her personal power over to Society. All she has to give *away* is her idea that she has to conform to anybody's expectations other than her *own.* Without harming someone else.
Dunno how old she is. I'm still learning at 67. But Society is just about the *last* place I wanna give away my personal power to. It seems to me that Society has little mercy these days. ICBW, 'course.
I'm saying it's not uncommon that women with particularly sexualised anatomy dislike and even resent the attention that it brings. And no, it's not even uncommon that women get breast reductions to escape that attention. As I mentioned to somebody else, a woman I know did so just a few weeks ago. I've known others over the years.
She isn't necessarily talking about getting a mastectomy or anything so drastic, she's talking about how she'd like to be free from the expectations and attention that have been placed on her because of her anatomy. It's not about conformity, it's about the fact that whatever she does, especially as a large breasted woman, she'll be subject to a certain kind of attention that is quite unpleasant.
Some women are more comfortable with that than others. But the women who aren't comfortable aren't wrong for being uncomfortable.
Apparently that figure has held steady since 2011. To me that qualifies as not uncommon. Especially bearing in mind that we’re only talking about women who had particularly large breasts in the first place which is already a minority.
😅 Really Jay? 150 million? You're going to include prepubescent girls in your calculation? And women with A-cup breasts? Less than one percent of women in America have a breast size over a D-cup (https://www.modernmom.com/a1d713f4-3b45-11e3-8407-bc764e04a41e.html). And you're not really in breast reduction territory in most cases until you're much larger than that.
Okay, Steve. I'll let You calculate the number of women with D+-cups. I'm fascinated You have such an interest in them. Me? I think You just like to argue. But go ahead and calculate the percentage, if You're so concerned, and get back to me.
If it's more than 3%, I'll be surprised, but ICBW, 'course.
When people start talking about "harming their body," I don't take that to mean breast size reduction. That's just me.
You missed my point, entirely. I'm not saying they're *wrong* to be uncomfortable. I'm saying they have a *choice* about being uncomfortable. Big difference.
“When people start talking about "harming their body," I don't take that to mean breast size reduction.”
T didn’t talk about harming her body. That was a misinterpretation by somebody else. Read her comments again.
I disagree that she has a choice about whether she’s uncomfortable. She has a choice about how she *deals* with that discomfort. She could choose to get a reduction or to not. She chose not to. But I think her point is that she’d rather simply not be uncomfortable.
Sorry jt yer me pal but I'm with Steve on this one. We don't get a lot of choice in what bothers us.
Turning the topic to my favorite (me) I keep telling myself to stop getting pissed off about bad grammar and language changes I don't like. "Reach out" bothers the piss out of me. I can tell myself it's just evolving speech but all I hear is "phony warmth." If you have any questions just *reach out* to Sarah and ... I reach for the plastic-lined back in the back of the seat in front of me.
Do I have a choice about getting BOOS over this? It doesn't feel like it.
I didn't read Steve that way, that we don't have choice in what bothers us. ICBW, of course.
Paraphrase another 2000-year-old piece-a lore: "There are things You can control: Yourself and that's it. There are things You can't control: Everybody else, and everything that comes in Your Way. Don't waste Your time and energy on the latter."
I don't see anything particularly *wrong* with getting pissed at stupidity. Has the benefit that it can keep Ya busy all the live long day. But if it disturbs Your peace of mind, what point? Get pissed. Move on to the next whatever. *Staying* pissed? There's always the *next* thing to get pissed off at. And amongst all that, a small thing comes Your way.
And what do You really care if You get booed? (Not from me, hope Ya see.)
I dunno. Mebbe it's just me. At my age, I just don't have *time* to dwell on things that didn't go my Way. Most don't.
At the end of the day, before the loooong night, it's all gonna come out even-steven, AFAIK. You remember Mad magazine, Chris? I think the motto was "What? Me worry?" Something. If it wasn't, it should-a been. When I hit [Post] I hope You or someone reading this will enjoy it. Count on it? Back to reading, is all.
"It's hard, but people control their own *reactions* to what happens to them. Which is largely a case of controlling one's emotions, right?"
I'd rather live in a world without racism. But I don't, so I manage my reactions when I experience it. Both of these are true at the same time. But despite my ability to manage my emotions, I still wish racism didn't exist.
T wasn't saying that she expected society to magically change. Just a hypothetical, "I wish I don't have to deal with this issue."
Being a paid blogger is actually a completely different thing. All you need to do is develop the skills and empathy required to do it. That's very different from having a body that subjects you to certain treatment.
That was a poor example on my part. I'll give another if needed.
Yeah, I wish sexism didn't exist. I don't practice it myself raised with two sisters during the Second Wave. But I prefer to deal with reality rather than fantasy. You do too. I would suggest T would be better off if she took Your approach, and the approach I suggested.
But that would mean taking responsibility for her reactions. IMO, most people would prefer to do anything *but,* right?
This idea that society imposes rigid expectations on us that we must conform to ,,, we mostly hear this from people who are determined to believe themselves oppressed and appear to be getting some perverse validation from the idea.
Most of us got over this "Ward and June" white picket fence thing, oh, about fifty years ago.
I don't smile. I will laugh at a joke, smile at a compliment or learning I've won the lottery or seeing an SUV that zoomed past everyone on the highway now overturned by the road and the driver clutching his head ... OK ... but anyone who tells me I should run around beaming at the air like Vietnamese girls do can just fuck the fuck off.
Difference, is, I don't write handkerchief-wringing articles about it nor do I lie in bed looping on thoughts of oppression because people who mean nothing to me think I should smile more. I'll smile if and when I feel like it, even if that ends up being never.
Oh, oh, oh, I decided yesterday I'm trans and my friends still refer to me as "she." Where's that razor blade?
How do you do text formatting on substack? I've tried HTML, BBCode and even (ugh) discord conventions, I've gone a-googling, and nothing has worked. What's the trick?
Apparently, this converts letters to Unicode characters above 0xFFFF, so it may not show in some systems (eg: some phones). But it works here, viewed with Chrome, so maybe that's enough.
No, you and GT were exactly right. Except that for some reason we pronounce the last word as "chee" in this case instead of the "yee" (south) or "zee" (north) that it's usually pronounced.
It's a really weird language, but I live my life in it. Except online.
"writer is saying that she would rather harm her body than work through emotional discomfort."
Oh, if it only it ended with self-harm. These people will obsess over their identities worse than a Second Amendment junkie over his guns. Talking to one of them feels like strolling through a minefield. never knowing what slip of the normal-conversation tongue will trigger an explosion of grievance.
At work she will be at the center of every conflict, constantly engaged with Human Resources when someone accidentally refers to her by her actual gender instead of whatever pair of pronouns she's put in her email signature, in the corridor outside her cubicle, on a bumpersticker on her car ....
"I would give it all away in a heartbeat to be allowed to feel comfortable and not expected to look, act or sound a certain way."
For me, this sentence is staggering. The writer is saying that they would rather harm their body than work through emotional discomfort.
A big part of passing from adolescence into adulthood is figuring out who you are, separate from everyone else's expectations of you. And it can be painful and hard. You can't avoid this or outsource this.
At the same time, geez. Cutting off your breasts so people won't expect you to look a certain way? Just show up to work or school in clean clothes and a washed face and that's it. Deodorant is a nice bonus. Everybody is not looking at you and thinking about you! That's how adolescents think. The truth is that everyone is thinking about themselves, not you.
Life is hard, but it's actually really easy too. Go outside, work in the garden, use your body and be a human animal on this planet. Find your joy!!
In the words of Auntie Mame, "Life's a banquet and most poor sons of bitches are starving to death."
"For me, this sentence is staggering. The writer is saying that they would rather harm their body than work through emotional discomfort."
No, I think it's more than that. She's saying that the expectations placed on her by society, and the attention she receives from some men (and in a different way, women), as a result of her anatomy are a burden. And she'd rather not have the anatomy if it meant she could be free of the expectations and attention.
She's an adult, she hasn't chosen to harm her body. Her problem, really, is with society. I think she has a really fair point there. I've seen on many occasions how women with big breasts in particular are treated. I've known girls who were shunned and assumed to be sluts by the women around them because they had big breasts. I've seen the constant attention and occasional groping from men. Then there are simple logistical concerns like how difficult it is to go running.
I think you're underestimating how much of an impact things like this can have on some women.
You're right, of course. After I posted my comment I felt bad about seeming to minimize her pain.
You are so right about how women with big breasts are treated. I've seen it in my own family, with my sister and daughter. My sister has always had to be careful with what clothes she wears, because, as she says, most things look "slutty" on her.
I had to deal with so much unwanted attention from boys and men from the age of 14 on. If I'm being honest, a lot of it was wanted too. I enjoyed the attention I got from being an attractive young woman. Sometimes I loved it. It was my super power.
Sometimes it was scary; I've been stalked and pretty badly harassed at work.
The constant attention slows down as you get older; by the time I was in my mid thirties the cat calling on the street and approaches from strangers had stopped. I had a brief re-adjustment period, where I felt invisible. But I quickly learned to love being more "incognito", and now, at 55, I really like it.
I do have a giant blind spot about all this- and need to do a lot more learning and introspection.
I dunno. I would ask if there's *any* creature in the Western world who *doesn't* have a problem or two dealing with "Society" (with a capital "S" ;-).
Give me name, rank and serial number. As well as email address so I can find out their secret.
Personally, I believe I've had worse problems dealing with Society than big breasts seem to cause. But that's just me. Others are skin-color. Ugliness. Political persuasion. WhatEVER.
Maybe I'm just hard-hearted, but when I gave up my own pity party, I found I was relieved beyond all expectation. And relieved of Society's expectations to boot, now that I think on it. Again, that's just me.
In a broader sense, how many problems in our lives can't be reduced to Other People?
Why, *all* our problems are because of Other People, right?
Or the opposite.
IMO, One takes a POV (point of view), right, that hopefully doesn't vary too awful much.
I read about a woman whose mother and grandmother both died of breast cancer before age 40. She was near-certain to come down with it and had a prophylactic double mastectomy.
That has nothing to do with trans anything/
"That has nothing to do with trans anything"
I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment either😅
Women have double mastectomies for health reasons. They also have breast reductions because they're uncomfortable with the size and weight of their breasts. Or because they dislike the attention they attract. A friend of mine did that just a month ago as it happens. Some women get their breasts enhanced because they want *more* attention.
The way women respond to the expectations of society varies depending on the woman. I'm just saying I don't think T's response is unreasonable or even particularly uncommon.
Not uncommon? Are You serious, Steve? And I reread T's quotes. I'm making an assumption that You guys are talking about a mastectomy? It could be read differently:
"I would give it all away in a heartbeat to be allowed to feel comfortable and not expected to look, act or sound a certain way."
Something I learned a while ago, but just lately come to grasp a little, is the concept of personal power. T is giving up *way* too much-a her personal power over to Society. All she has to give *away* is her idea that she has to conform to anybody's expectations other than her *own.* Without harming someone else.
Dunno how old she is. I'm still learning at 67. But Society is just about the *last* place I wanna give away my personal power to. It seems to me that Society has little mercy these days. ICBW, 'course.
"Not uncommon? Are You serious, Steve?"
I'm saying it's not uncommon that women with particularly sexualised anatomy dislike and even resent the attention that it brings. And no, it's not even uncommon that women get breast reductions to escape that attention. As I mentioned to somebody else, a woman I know did so just a few weeks ago. I've known others over the years.
She isn't necessarily talking about getting a mastectomy or anything so drastic, she's talking about how she'd like to be free from the expectations and attention that have been placed on her because of her anatomy. It's not about conformity, it's about the fact that whatever she does, especially as a large breasted woman, she'll be subject to a certain kind of attention that is quite unpleasant.
Some women are more comfortable with that than others. But the women who aren't comfortable aren't wrong for being uncomfortable.
I reread Your reply Steve. I think we have *very* different ideas of what "not uncommon" means.
Just to pick a number off the top-a my head, "not uncommon" would be more than.. say.. three or four percent. Mebbe five. You?
Looks like there are around 43,500 breast reductions in the US per year (https://www.plasticsurgery.org/news/press-releases/breast-reduction-in-young-women-improves-quality-of-life-decades-later).
Apparently that figure has held steady since 2011. To me that qualifies as not uncommon. Especially bearing in mind that we’re only talking about women who had particularly large breasts in the first place which is already a minority.
Assuming there are around 150M women, that's what percentage? I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader. ;-)
😅 Really Jay? 150 million? You're going to include prepubescent girls in your calculation? And women with A-cup breasts? Less than one percent of women in America have a breast size over a D-cup (https://www.modernmom.com/a1d713f4-3b45-11e3-8407-bc764e04a41e.html). And you're not really in breast reduction territory in most cases until you're much larger than that.
Okay, Steve. I'll let You calculate the number of women with D+-cups. I'm fascinated You have such an interest in them. Me? I think You just like to argue. But go ahead and calculate the percentage, if You're so concerned, and get back to me.
If it's more than 3%, I'll be surprised, but ICBW, 'course.
When people start talking about "harming their body," I don't take that to mean breast size reduction. That's just me.
You missed my point, entirely. I'm not saying they're *wrong* to be uncomfortable. I'm saying they have a *choice* about being uncomfortable. Big difference.
“When people start talking about "harming their body," I don't take that to mean breast size reduction.”
T didn’t talk about harming her body. That was a misinterpretation by somebody else. Read her comments again.
I disagree that she has a choice about whether she’s uncomfortable. She has a choice about how she *deals* with that discomfort. She could choose to get a reduction or to not. She chose not to. But I think her point is that she’d rather simply not be uncomfortable.
Sorry jt yer me pal but I'm with Steve on this one. We don't get a lot of choice in what bothers us.
Turning the topic to my favorite (me) I keep telling myself to stop getting pissed off about bad grammar and language changes I don't like. "Reach out" bothers the piss out of me. I can tell myself it's just evolving speech but all I hear is "phony warmth." If you have any questions just *reach out* to Sarah and ... I reach for the plastic-lined back in the back of the seat in front of me.
Do I have a choice about getting BOOS over this? It doesn't feel like it.
I didn't read Steve that way, that we don't have choice in what bothers us. ICBW, of course.
Paraphrase another 2000-year-old piece-a lore: "There are things You can control: Yourself and that's it. There are things You can't control: Everybody else, and everything that comes in Your Way. Don't waste Your time and energy on the latter."
I don't see anything particularly *wrong* with getting pissed at stupidity. Has the benefit that it can keep Ya busy all the live long day. But if it disturbs Your peace of mind, what point? Get pissed. Move on to the next whatever. *Staying* pissed? There's always the *next* thing to get pissed off at. And amongst all that, a small thing comes Your way.
And what do You really care if You get booed? (Not from me, hope Ya see.)
I dunno. Mebbe it's just me. At my age, I just don't have *time* to dwell on things that didn't go my Way. Most don't.
At the end of the day, before the loooong night, it's all gonna come out even-steven, AFAIK. You remember Mad magazine, Chris? I think the motto was "What? Me worry?" Something. If it wasn't, it should-a been. When I hit [Post] I hope You or someone reading this will enjoy it. Count on it? Back to reading, is all.
Don't take my word on it. This is 2,000 year-old advice:
“It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.”
That's what I was implying about "harm."
It's hard, but people control their own *reactions* to what happens to them. Which is largely a case of controlling one's emotions, right?
And, yeah. I'd simply rather be a paid blogger. Doesn't work like that.
"It's hard, but people control their own *reactions* to what happens to them. Which is largely a case of controlling one's emotions, right?"
I'd rather live in a world without racism. But I don't, so I manage my reactions when I experience it. Both of these are true at the same time. But despite my ability to manage my emotions, I still wish racism didn't exist.
T wasn't saying that she expected society to magically change. Just a hypothetical, "I wish I don't have to deal with this issue."
Being a paid blogger is actually a completely different thing. All you need to do is develop the skills and empathy required to do it. That's very different from having a body that subjects you to certain treatment.
That was a poor example on my part. I'll give another if needed.
Yeah, I wish sexism didn't exist. I don't practice it myself raised with two sisters during the Second Wave. But I prefer to deal with reality rather than fantasy. You do too. I would suggest T would be better off if she took Your approach, and the approach I suggested.
But that would mean taking responsibility for her reactions. IMO, most people would prefer to do anything *but,* right?
This idea that society imposes rigid expectations on us that we must conform to ,,, we mostly hear this from people who are determined to believe themselves oppressed and appear to be getting some perverse validation from the idea.
Most of us got over this "Ward and June" white picket fence thing, oh, about fifty years ago.
I don't smile. I will laugh at a joke, smile at a compliment or learning I've won the lottery or seeing an SUV that zoomed past everyone on the highway now overturned by the road and the driver clutching his head ... OK ... but anyone who tells me I should run around beaming at the air like Vietnamese girls do can just fuck the fuck off.
Difference, is, I don't write handkerchief-wringing articles about it nor do I lie in bed looping on thoughts of oppression because people who mean nothing to me think I should smile more. I'll smile if and when I feel like it, even if that ends up being never.
Oh, oh, oh, I decided yesterday I'm trans and my friends still refer to me as "she." Where's that razor blade?
Rubbish.
One makes one's choices. One lives with one's consequences. That so hard to believe?
I'm guessing... Going out on a limb. Guessin' You'd say "no," but ICBW, 'course.
"𝑭𝒐𝒓 𝒎𝒆, 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒔 𝒔𝒆𝒏𝒕𝒆𝒏𝒄𝒆 𝒊𝒔 𝒔𝒕𝒂𝒈𝒈𝒆𝒓𝒊𝒏𝒈. 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝒘𝒓𝒊𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒊𝒔 𝒔𝒂𝒚𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒚 𝒘𝒐𝒖𝒍𝒅 𝒓𝒂𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓 𝒉𝒂𝒓𝒎 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒊𝒓 𝒃𝒐𝒅𝒚 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒏 𝒘𝒐𝒓𝒌 𝒕𝒉𝒓𝒐𝒖𝒈𝒉 𝒆𝒎𝒐𝒕𝒊𝒐𝒏𝒂𝒍 𝒅𝒊𝒔𝒄𝒐𝒎𝒇𝒐𝒓𝒕."
THIS, so THIS!
Hey, Dave.
How do you do text formatting on substack? I've tried HTML, BBCode and even (ugh) discord conventions, I've gone a-googling, and nothing has worked. What's the trick?
https://convertcase.net/italic-text-converter/
Cool, thanks!
Apparently, this converts letters to Unicode characters above 0xFFFF, so it may not show in some systems (eg: some phones). But it works here, viewed with Chrome, so maybe that's enough.
𝘊ả𝘮 ơ𝘯
không có gì
literal translation: have nothing
(not have what)
Google translate failure (Supposed to be, you're welcome) ;0)
I remember very little of the Vietnamese language and that only pertained to decisions of war.
No, you and GT were exactly right. Except that for some reason we pronounce the last word as "chee" in this case instead of the "yee" (south) or "zee" (north) that it's usually pronounced.
It's a really weird language, but I live my life in it. Except online.
"writer is saying that she would rather harm her body than work through emotional discomfort."
Oh, if it only it ended with self-harm. These people will obsess over their identities worse than a Second Amendment junkie over his guns. Talking to one of them feels like strolling through a minefield. never knowing what slip of the normal-conversation tongue will trigger an explosion of grievance.
At work she will be at the center of every conflict, constantly engaged with Human Resources when someone accidentally refers to her by her actual gender instead of whatever pair of pronouns she's put in her email signature, in the corridor outside her cubicle, on a bumpersticker on her car ....