Well sorry, but add a fourth person to the list of people who think peace in that NJ-sized strip of land is a pipe dream. With or without Hamas.
My views are evolving constantly on this mess but I just can't get over how difficult it is to support the Palestinians on *anything*. 'Free Palestine'? Sorry, as if they could ever be free! If s…
Well sorry, but add a fourth person to the list of people who think peace in that NJ-sized strip of land is a pipe dream. With or without Hamas.
My views are evolving constantly on this mess but I just can't get over how difficult it is to support the Palestinians on *anything*. 'Free Palestine'? Sorry, as if they could ever be free! If somehow magically all of HamsterAss disappeared tomorrow, another external genocidal nutbag group would take over, or it would be generated from within whatever Palestinians are left. Because hating Jews is what they do. Indoctrinated from birth. A fuckuva lot of them support Hamas, or at least support hating Jews and wanting to eliminate them. They don't have it in them to be free. 89% of them would love to see Palestine ruled by Sharia law, which never works out well for women (who suffer appalling amounts of domestic violence from their darling hubbies). They're pretty famously mega-homophobic, too. There's nothing more ludicrous than watching Team Rainbow wave their multicoloured flags around with their kaffiyehs. Gazans push people like that off of rooftops. *If* they can identify them. Since LGBTQ people there keep a very low profile, and running around with goofy hair colours and pierced noses doesn't go over well with the masturbates-to-Leni-Riefenstahl crowd.
They need a homeland because the three guys are right: Jews aren't safe anywhere in the world. They're as Indigenous to the land as the Palestinians. Sure, many of them came from somewhere else - Europe, after the war, and the Middle East, as they got kicked out or expelled from their home countries there, too. Neither were all the Palestinians born there either; many of them were kicked out, and no one else will take them back or in. Just ask Egypt.
I don't have the answers for that part of the world, *no one* does. But I don't believe Palestinians have it in them to be free. They love hatred and a genocidal view. They're dying by the droves because the death cult they voted for uses them as human shields. They strike me as being somewhat like the Trumpers: No matter how bad they get it from the folks who claim to represent them, they bend over again, spread their butt cheeks, and say, "Please, sir, may I have some more?"
Hamas located their headquarters under a hospital so the IDF would *have* to bomb it to get to them. Dead Palestinians are *great* press for them. Until the Gazans figure that out, and stop voting for the people who are *trying* to get them killed, they're going to reap what they sow.
"If somehow magically all of HamsterAss disappeared tomorrow, another external genocidal nutbag group would take over, or it would be generated from within whatever Palestinians are left."
I agree. This is actually central to my belief that you can't bomb Hamas out of Gaza. But aren't you overlooking the reason why there's so much tension in the region? As I said in the conversation. There are bad, antisemitic reasons why Israel is hated in the region. But there are also understandable territorial and "bombing thousands of innocent mothers, fathers and children into oblivion" reasons. And we're talking before Oct 7th.
Let's imagine that Hamas disappears tomorrow and Israel stops bombing Gaza the same day. Will everybody be happy? No. Because the blockade would still be there. The West Bank barrier would still be there. The inequality between Jews and Arabs in Israel would still be there. Gazans would still be living in poverty and ruin (now, of course, even greater poverty and ruin).
This is why I'm at such great pains to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians. Yes, there's overlap. Hamas hate Jews. They need to be stopped. I think all sane people agree. I'm simply arguing that they need to be stopped in a way that doesn't radicalise even more Palestinians. And I think that Israel recognising and taking active steps to end its part in this mess would go a long, long way to doing that.
Somewhat agreed. The Palestinians have some pretty legitimate grievances against Israel, and the US and its allies for supporting them and looking the other way when they violate certain agreements. But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews which goes on for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anti-Semitism and hatred of other non-Muslims is 'baked into' the Koran, to cadge a phrase from campus Hamas groupies. Steve, I honestly don't think the Palestinians could live by themselves with or without Hamas, with or without Israel. They are so steeped in hatred, their children are steeped in it from birth, that it takes a helluva free thinker to move beyond that sort of hate prison. We can talk about the real abuse of Palestinian rights all we want, but I for one wouldn't support a two-state solution for them until they publicly stated they refute the notion of 'river to the sea' and agree to share the land with Jews. If they can't do that, then, I'm sorry, fuck 'em. I don't think they could live in peace with each other if all the Jews and Hamas disappeared. What would they do with all that hate? Turn on each other. Maybe I'm extremely pessimistic but I don't think they'll be ready for self-government for many, many generations. And even if they DID agree to live with Jews, how would the rest ot the kill-all-the-Jews Arab world handle that? Would they go along with it? I don't think so. But hey, they're all welcome to prove me wrong.
"But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews"
I'm not sure what has you so convinced of this. I've watched so many interview with Palestinians over the past month. They hate the blockade, yes, but almost none of them have expressed hate for Jews. No more than the Jews I've seen interviewed expressed hatred for Palestinians.
The Quran says all kinds of terrible things. As does pretty much every "holy" book. But most religious people don't adhere to (in fact, most aren't even aware of) every word written in their holy books. Jihad is a feature of Islam. But far from all Muslims are Jihadis.
Beyond that, polling from 2006, the last we have before Hamas came to power, showed that 79.5% of Palestinians wanted peace with Israel (http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/blmain.html). 75.2% thought Hamas should change its policies regarding Israel. The evidence suggests that Palestinians aren't the radicalised sociopaths you seem to think they are.
Religious dogma is always an obstacle to resolving any real-world issue. There is certainly hate there (again, from some Jews too). But I think most people, Palestinians and Jews, still want peace. Or, at least, they prefer it to the alternative.
When mice got into my house and I heard them scurrying under the bed at night, I didn’t hate them. I just wanted them gone. Same for cockroaches.
You won’t hear much from Israelis about how much they hate Arabs. They don’t need to. The presumption of Jewish supremacy runs too deep for that. It’s a very different sort of bigotry from the inferiority complex that drives rural southern American whites.
I reject that hackneyed and reflexive charge of antisemitism for saying this. It comes from friends who live in or have visited Israel. In the days of psychedelic trance a lot of the artists were Israelis, we communicated a lot, and to a man they deplored the nonchalance of their countrymen’s dismissal of Arabs as subhuman.
We’ve heard from both Israelis and Palestinians who want peace. You won’t hear it from the settlers or their movement.
I see no way out of this not externally imposed, and nobody is going to do that. Biden is a stenographer. AIPAC has vast funds to keep anyone not stridently supportive of Israel out of office.
The rest of the world is seeing the wanton brutality but Israel is less likely to see reality than the GOP.
Less recently, having read the Koran years ago (still have it on my bookshelf) and 1,400 years of anti-Semitism and Christophobia. Not to mention looking at what a lot of these Islamofascist terrorist groups want (the extermination of the Jews from river to sea) not to mention a fairly ludicrous but serious threat to the West: The desire to bring the One True Religion to the rest of us, by force if not by persuasion. Sound like any other religion you can think of? Although that one has civilized itself a lot in the last few centuries.
Check out the stats of what Palestinians elsewhere say about Jews and the desire for peace, consider how many two-state solutions they've turned down, and then tell me they still want peace. A minority do, for sure. And the West Bank is less insane than Gaza.
People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. Talk is cheap. Action (or inaction) is louder than words.
I'm sorry, Steve, I just don't trust the Palestinians as far as I can throw them. They, and Hamas, represent some of the very worst excesses of violent right-wing dogma, not to mention all the pathologies that come along with it - hatred of women, 'Others', homosexuals, etc. The same people who condemn Donald Trump and the Christian Right jump up and down like excited cheerleaders for Hamas's touchdown on Oct 7. I have long found the Palestinians to be the world's least sympathetic victims and now I feel it even more so.
Israel has a lot to answer for too, but I think a lot of what looks like 'oppression' is actually a need for security. As the article notes, terrorism, violence and anti-Semitism is simply part of the culture. The Vietnamese didn't turn into terrorists and the Americans bombed them a fuckuva lot harder than the Palestinians have been. If anyone should have a hate-on for Americans it's the Japanese, since they're the only people (so far) to have been *nuked* - and that was beyond nightmarish. And yet *they're* not terrorists. Maybe it's because they're not Muslim. In fact, I'd bet my life on it. Islam has some good things going for it, but it's got an ugly cancer they haven't yet addressed for a very, very long time.
"People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. "
😅 You think people in Gaza are worried about being politically correct or virtue signalling? The same people who overwhelmingly and publicly support sharia law and outlawing homosexuality when polled? In fact, you think virtue signalling in Gaza means calling for peace with Israel rather than the other way around? Who do you think they're trying to impress? Twitter? I see no reason to believe they'd lie. Especially in a way that supported Israel.
People in Gaza have good reason to hate Israel. If you were living there, regardless of what God you believed in, you wouldn't think highly of Israel either. No, I don't think that would turn you or any sane person into a terrorist. And, of course, it hasn't turned ~99% of the people living in Gaza into terrorists either.
So if you want to talk about the problems with Islam as an ideology, fine. I'm right there with you. (of course, you could also talk out the problems with Christianity and Judaism as ideologies, their holy books aren't too friendly towards women and homosexuals either I'll remind you). But just as most Christians and Jews aren't killing people because of the stupid things their holy books say, nor are most Muslims.
You're writing off 2.3 million people because of the actions of a few hundred men. If that. Which, not for nothing, is exactly what Trump did with his Muslim ban. God damn I hate the instinct that makes people do this.
I'm already well-familiar with the past evils of Christianity and Judaism; last night after my arrival at my family's in the States a brief topic of conversation is, "Why We Understand Why Some People Have Hated the Jews." I said anyone who had to live with them in Biblical times sure had good reason, based on the Old Testament. And as a Pagan I can speak up one side and down the other about the evils of Christianity. But...neither of those religions is actively launching terrorist attacks. If you look at the research in that article, it shows rather a lot of support for terrorism, Hamas, laws that hate one people dear to liberals' hearts, etc. Now, maybe those surveys aren't right; I don't know. Surveys aren't the most reliable sources of information, and people will sometimes give what they think is the 'right' answer (or the ones they think will make their people look better to the rest of the world). There's just too much support for terrorism, and I keep thinking of how many times they've turned down a two-state solution. So yeah, I suspect virtue signalling. But I could be wrong.
Not convinced it's just 'a few hundred men', frankly.
“They” didn’t turn down a two-state solution any more than you pulled out of the Paris accords or implemented a Muslim ban.
If you have a minute, check out this video on Palestinian feelings towards Jews and Israel. There’s a range of responses, they certainly aren’t all virtue signalling, but there’s far more depth to the answers than you might expect (https://youtu.be/2pjFJ0HPt5g?si=NqM0jDAKEqwhFVnK)
Interesting. Some say they hate Israel, some middling, one guy says he doesn't hate anyone. I would say, maybe. The problem with surveys is that unless they're conducted in a very specific way you often don't get honest answers, especially when you train a camera on someone. It's why scientific research has to be conducted so carefully because people will tell the researcher what they think they want to hear or what makes themselves look good.
The interviewer saying, "I lived during the intifadas and never heard anyone say, 'Kill a Palestinian, get a dollar'. I had a Jordanian Muslim friend who said she never heard of honour killings in Jordan. Never mind that at the time they were about 50% of female deaths (not sure what it is now, this was about 18 years ago). I used to talk to a New York Orthodox Jew who had lived and studied in Jerusalem for awhile and that he was on the police force & disclaimed any knowledge of Israeli cops roughing up Palestinians or using a torture device called 'the hood'. Denied that even existed. A few months later I posted a news story in the forum to say, "Hey L, looks like the Israeli police are going to stop using the hood you said didn't exist. And that they're going to stop torturing the prisoners you said they weren't torturing." It's amazing what people don't 'know' about their own cultures...when the news is bad. (I wonder about the man who says, "There are no Arab Muslims who like Israel." Maybe they do but they don't say so in Gaza because it would be...well, pretty unpopular.)
The guy who says he doesn't hate the Israelis, but the government...and not Americans, but their government. Sounds like me in the eighties saying I don't hate Russians, but I can't stand their government.
Interesting, the guy who knows 5 about Islam but isn't religious and has Jewish friends. He sounds the most reasonable. Interesting comments as well taking the interviewer to task a bit for interchanging Israel, Israelis & Jews.
So yes, many opinions across the board, which is similar to what I've found. This morning I went looking for unbiased (largely anyway) information sources because I really want to understand where the legitimate grievances against Israel come from. It's so hard now with so much bias and journalistic lack of integrity on both sides on this issue. I came up with, just to start Agence France Presse (it detects your browser's language so no need to speak French), Asian Times, and The Conversation, both of which I'm familiar with (always avoided AFP as my French isn't good enough, now I don't have to. Unfortunately their search engine sucks.) Read a good article on the Asian Times (reprinted from The Conversation) about how much of Palestine really can't stand Hamas and wishes they'd fuck off to hell. I know no source is ever 100% unbiased and I tend to lean on Media Bias Fact Check to state who's unbiased (at the moment anyway) but I'm more inclined to go with their 'unbiased' assessments, unless someone can come up with a better one. They note that both Asian Times and AFP are IFCN fact checkers, which led me to *their* website...I may write an article about how to research difficult subjects like this, since there's so much crap to sort through.
It was a given in my military days that when a bomb killed a farmer's daughter all the young men in the village picked up a rifle. That is the big flaw in overkill. How many enemies are created with every kill? Killing non-combatants creates enemies. But even the combatants have people who lived them, even if it is only their mother.
"And I think that Israel recognising and taking active steps to end its part in this mess would go a long, long way to doing that."
It would still take at least a generation. Muslims hold long grudges and the Palis have plenty they want to avenge. I doubt anyone in either territory is more than two degrees of separation from some killed by Israel or by those horrid settlers, who do it for sport.
This is an utterly vile post, painting in such unnuanced broad strokes that it's impossible to reconcile with the thoughtfulness I've seen you exhibit. The savagery you aimed at me in that since-deleted post rolls off after reading this.
My guess is that Hamas' treatment of WOMYN has snapped your chain. Corroborated by the oft-repeated stuff about how badly I would be treated there, being a gay man. Well. I've worked with a lot of Muslims; Palestinians, Pakistanis, Lebanese, and all knew I'm gay and not a one of them gave a damn. But I've already written about nomadic peoples and their infant mortality rates so that's all I have to say about that.
Word for word, the same lies that Israel spews. Do you really think that every Palestinian loops endlessly on hating Jews? That they don't cook food and love their families and maintain their motorbikes, and everything else people do, but just think "I hate Jews, kill them all" .. every day, all day?
Who says Hamas located their headquarters under a hospital? Israel says so. The same Israel that's been caught in lie after lie after lie. The same Israel that has failed to keep its agreements, the same Israel that elects rabid bigots like Netanyahu and Bennett, but you believe every word.
Yeah, Palestinians hate Israel. This is my shocked face. Israel has been murdering them, stealing their land, bulldozing their homes, shooting them for sport, treating them with cruelty that so exceeds any excuses about self-defense. It would be absolutely and astonishingly unlike humanity if they didn't hate Israel.
Suppose somehow Mexico came into Texas and started demolishing towns and setting up Spanish-speaking settlements and shooting any Americans who weren't happy about it. Would you be calling those Americans "terrorists" and calling them "hateful bigots?" Forget for the moment that they would be repelled by those people whose garages are arsenals. Are you so enraged that Hamas tortured and raped some women that you can't follow the comparison?
I mentioned that Netanyahu promoted Hamas, assuring that the PA would not govern both territories, but it sounds like "Bibi" gets a pass because "HamsterAss." It makes no impression.
And you don't have a word to say about the greatest act of theft in human history or the legitimacy of Palestinian grievances, with only a perfunctory box-check that Israel hasn't been, what was the word, "angelic."
While Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayelet_Shaked) called for the murder of all Palestinian mothers; this wasn't an overheard remark at a dinner party, this was from the podium in her official capacity. I hope I don't need to point out that Palestinian mothers are women too, but, hey, I guess that doesn't matter. Let me guess, what's the difference between Israeli women and Palestinian women?
Funny, I thought a gay gay would have less of a hard-on for people who hate people like him. *I* don't support people who hate me (which the Gazan nuts do), but maybe you're different.
I mean, the shit they did to Israeli women brought a whole new creativity to inflicting pain and degradation during mass rape that must have the Nazis writhing in jealous that they didn't think of it first.
I know the Israelis are no angels either, but I think they could live peaceably without terrorist neighbours. Unfortunately their terrorist neighbours can't live peaceably with them.
You trade in caricatures. Simpleminded ones at that. Like "all Palestinians are terrorists." Or "all Muslims would murder you for being gay." Which makes me wonder how I survived screwing several of them.
Isn't there some vestigial piece of your mind that pauses as you write junk like that?
Hamas' rape and torture of Israeli women seems to have overwhelmed your reason, yet the former Justice Minister calling for the murder of all Palestinian mothers seems to have left no impression.
Well sorry, but add a fourth person to the list of people who think peace in that NJ-sized strip of land is a pipe dream. With or without Hamas.
My views are evolving constantly on this mess but I just can't get over how difficult it is to support the Palestinians on *anything*. 'Free Palestine'? Sorry, as if they could ever be free! If somehow magically all of HamsterAss disappeared tomorrow, another external genocidal nutbag group would take over, or it would be generated from within whatever Palestinians are left. Because hating Jews is what they do. Indoctrinated from birth. A fuckuva lot of them support Hamas, or at least support hating Jews and wanting to eliminate them. They don't have it in them to be free. 89% of them would love to see Palestine ruled by Sharia law, which never works out well for women (who suffer appalling amounts of domestic violence from their darling hubbies). They're pretty famously mega-homophobic, too. There's nothing more ludicrous than watching Team Rainbow wave their multicoloured flags around with their kaffiyehs. Gazans push people like that off of rooftops. *If* they can identify them. Since LGBTQ people there keep a very low profile, and running around with goofy hair colours and pierced noses doesn't go over well with the masturbates-to-Leni-Riefenstahl crowd.
They need a homeland because the three guys are right: Jews aren't safe anywhere in the world. They're as Indigenous to the land as the Palestinians. Sure, many of them came from somewhere else - Europe, after the war, and the Middle East, as they got kicked out or expelled from their home countries there, too. Neither were all the Palestinians born there either; many of them were kicked out, and no one else will take them back or in. Just ask Egypt.
I don't have the answers for that part of the world, *no one* does. But I don't believe Palestinians have it in them to be free. They love hatred and a genocidal view. They're dying by the droves because the death cult they voted for uses them as human shields. They strike me as being somewhat like the Trumpers: No matter how bad they get it from the folks who claim to represent them, they bend over again, spread their butt cheeks, and say, "Please, sir, may I have some more?"
Hamas located their headquarters under a hospital so the IDF would *have* to bomb it to get to them. Dead Palestinians are *great* press for them. Until the Gazans figure that out, and stop voting for the people who are *trying* to get them killed, they're going to reap what they sow.
"If somehow magically all of HamsterAss disappeared tomorrow, another external genocidal nutbag group would take over, or it would be generated from within whatever Palestinians are left."
I agree. This is actually central to my belief that you can't bomb Hamas out of Gaza. But aren't you overlooking the reason why there's so much tension in the region? As I said in the conversation. There are bad, antisemitic reasons why Israel is hated in the region. But there are also understandable territorial and "bombing thousands of innocent mothers, fathers and children into oblivion" reasons. And we're talking before Oct 7th.
Let's imagine that Hamas disappears tomorrow and Israel stops bombing Gaza the same day. Will everybody be happy? No. Because the blockade would still be there. The West Bank barrier would still be there. The inequality between Jews and Arabs in Israel would still be there. Gazans would still be living in poverty and ruin (now, of course, even greater poverty and ruin).
This is why I'm at such great pains to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians. Yes, there's overlap. Hamas hate Jews. They need to be stopped. I think all sane people agree. I'm simply arguing that they need to be stopped in a way that doesn't radicalise even more Palestinians. And I think that Israel recognising and taking active steps to end its part in this mess would go a long, long way to doing that.
Somewhat agreed. The Palestinians have some pretty legitimate grievances against Israel, and the US and its allies for supporting them and looking the other way when they violate certain agreements. But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews which goes on for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anti-Semitism and hatred of other non-Muslims is 'baked into' the Koran, to cadge a phrase from campus Hamas groupies. Steve, I honestly don't think the Palestinians could live by themselves with or without Hamas, with or without Israel. They are so steeped in hatred, their children are steeped in it from birth, that it takes a helluva free thinker to move beyond that sort of hate prison. We can talk about the real abuse of Palestinian rights all we want, but I for one wouldn't support a two-state solution for them until they publicly stated they refute the notion of 'river to the sea' and agree to share the land with Jews. If they can't do that, then, I'm sorry, fuck 'em. I don't think they could live in peace with each other if all the Jews and Hamas disappeared. What would they do with all that hate? Turn on each other. Maybe I'm extremely pessimistic but I don't think they'll be ready for self-government for many, many generations. And even if they DID agree to live with Jews, how would the rest ot the kill-all-the-Jews Arab world handle that? Would they go along with it? I don't think so. But hey, they're all welcome to prove me wrong.
"But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews"
I'm not sure what has you so convinced of this. I've watched so many interview with Palestinians over the past month. They hate the blockade, yes, but almost none of them have expressed hate for Jews. No more than the Jews I've seen interviewed expressed hatred for Palestinians.
The Quran says all kinds of terrible things. As does pretty much every "holy" book. But most religious people don't adhere to (in fact, most aren't even aware of) every word written in their holy books. Jihad is a feature of Islam. But far from all Muslims are Jihadis.
Beyond that, polling from 2006, the last we have before Hamas came to power, showed that 79.5% of Palestinians wanted peace with Israel (http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/blmain.html). 75.2% thought Hamas should change its policies regarding Israel. The evidence suggests that Palestinians aren't the radicalised sociopaths you seem to think they are.
Religious dogma is always an obstacle to resolving any real-world issue. There is certainly hate there (again, from some Jews too). But I think most people, Palestinians and Jews, still want peace. Or, at least, they prefer it to the alternative.
When mice got into my house and I heard them scurrying under the bed at night, I didn’t hate them. I just wanted them gone. Same for cockroaches.
You won’t hear much from Israelis about how much they hate Arabs. They don’t need to. The presumption of Jewish supremacy runs too deep for that. It’s a very different sort of bigotry from the inferiority complex that drives rural southern American whites.
I reject that hackneyed and reflexive charge of antisemitism for saying this. It comes from friends who live in or have visited Israel. In the days of psychedelic trance a lot of the artists were Israelis, we communicated a lot, and to a man they deplored the nonchalance of their countrymen’s dismissal of Arabs as subhuman.
We’ve heard from both Israelis and Palestinians who want peace. You won’t hear it from the settlers or their movement.
I see no way out of this not externally imposed, and nobody is going to do that. Biden is a stenographer. AIPAC has vast funds to keep anyone not stridently supportive of Israel out of office.
The rest of the world is seeing the wanton brutality but Israel is less likely to see reality than the GOP.
"I'm not sure what has you so convinced of this."
This, most recently:
https://volodzko.substack.com/p/the-problem-is-palestinian-culture
Less recently, having read the Koran years ago (still have it on my bookshelf) and 1,400 years of anti-Semitism and Christophobia. Not to mention looking at what a lot of these Islamofascist terrorist groups want (the extermination of the Jews from river to sea) not to mention a fairly ludicrous but serious threat to the West: The desire to bring the One True Religion to the rest of us, by force if not by persuasion. Sound like any other religion you can think of? Although that one has civilized itself a lot in the last few centuries.
Check out the stats of what Palestinians elsewhere say about Jews and the desire for peace, consider how many two-state solutions they've turned down, and then tell me they still want peace. A minority do, for sure. And the West Bank is less insane than Gaza.
People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. Talk is cheap. Action (or inaction) is louder than words.
I'm sorry, Steve, I just don't trust the Palestinians as far as I can throw them. They, and Hamas, represent some of the very worst excesses of violent right-wing dogma, not to mention all the pathologies that come along with it - hatred of women, 'Others', homosexuals, etc. The same people who condemn Donald Trump and the Christian Right jump up and down like excited cheerleaders for Hamas's touchdown on Oct 7. I have long found the Palestinians to be the world's least sympathetic victims and now I feel it even more so.
Israel has a lot to answer for too, but I think a lot of what looks like 'oppression' is actually a need for security. As the article notes, terrorism, violence and anti-Semitism is simply part of the culture. The Vietnamese didn't turn into terrorists and the Americans bombed them a fuckuva lot harder than the Palestinians have been. If anyone should have a hate-on for Americans it's the Japanese, since they're the only people (so far) to have been *nuked* - and that was beyond nightmarish. And yet *they're* not terrorists. Maybe it's because they're not Muslim. In fact, I'd bet my life on it. Islam has some good things going for it, but it's got an ugly cancer they haven't yet addressed for a very, very long time.
"People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. "
😅 You think people in Gaza are worried about being politically correct or virtue signalling? The same people who overwhelmingly and publicly support sharia law and outlawing homosexuality when polled? In fact, you think virtue signalling in Gaza means calling for peace with Israel rather than the other way around? Who do you think they're trying to impress? Twitter? I see no reason to believe they'd lie. Especially in a way that supported Israel.
People in Gaza have good reason to hate Israel. If you were living there, regardless of what God you believed in, you wouldn't think highly of Israel either. No, I don't think that would turn you or any sane person into a terrorist. And, of course, it hasn't turned ~99% of the people living in Gaza into terrorists either.
So if you want to talk about the problems with Islam as an ideology, fine. I'm right there with you. (of course, you could also talk out the problems with Christianity and Judaism as ideologies, their holy books aren't too friendly towards women and homosexuals either I'll remind you). But just as most Christians and Jews aren't killing people because of the stupid things their holy books say, nor are most Muslims.
You're writing off 2.3 million people because of the actions of a few hundred men. If that. Which, not for nothing, is exactly what Trump did with his Muslim ban. God damn I hate the instinct that makes people do this.
I'm already well-familiar with the past evils of Christianity and Judaism; last night after my arrival at my family's in the States a brief topic of conversation is, "Why We Understand Why Some People Have Hated the Jews." I said anyone who had to live with them in Biblical times sure had good reason, based on the Old Testament. And as a Pagan I can speak up one side and down the other about the evils of Christianity. But...neither of those religions is actively launching terrorist attacks. If you look at the research in that article, it shows rather a lot of support for terrorism, Hamas, laws that hate one people dear to liberals' hearts, etc. Now, maybe those surveys aren't right; I don't know. Surveys aren't the most reliable sources of information, and people will sometimes give what they think is the 'right' answer (or the ones they think will make their people look better to the rest of the world). There's just too much support for terrorism, and I keep thinking of how many times they've turned down a two-state solution. So yeah, I suspect virtue signalling. But I could be wrong.
Not convinced it's just 'a few hundred men', frankly.
“They” didn’t turn down a two-state solution any more than you pulled out of the Paris accords or implemented a Muslim ban.
If you have a minute, check out this video on Palestinian feelings towards Jews and Israel. There’s a range of responses, they certainly aren’t all virtue signalling, but there’s far more depth to the answers than you might expect (https://youtu.be/2pjFJ0HPt5g?si=NqM0jDAKEqwhFVnK)
Interesting. Some say they hate Israel, some middling, one guy says he doesn't hate anyone. I would say, maybe. The problem with surveys is that unless they're conducted in a very specific way you often don't get honest answers, especially when you train a camera on someone. It's why scientific research has to be conducted so carefully because people will tell the researcher what they think they want to hear or what makes themselves look good.
The interviewer saying, "I lived during the intifadas and never heard anyone say, 'Kill a Palestinian, get a dollar'. I had a Jordanian Muslim friend who said she never heard of honour killings in Jordan. Never mind that at the time they were about 50% of female deaths (not sure what it is now, this was about 18 years ago). I used to talk to a New York Orthodox Jew who had lived and studied in Jerusalem for awhile and that he was on the police force & disclaimed any knowledge of Israeli cops roughing up Palestinians or using a torture device called 'the hood'. Denied that even existed. A few months later I posted a news story in the forum to say, "Hey L, looks like the Israeli police are going to stop using the hood you said didn't exist. And that they're going to stop torturing the prisoners you said they weren't torturing." It's amazing what people don't 'know' about their own cultures...when the news is bad. (I wonder about the man who says, "There are no Arab Muslims who like Israel." Maybe they do but they don't say so in Gaza because it would be...well, pretty unpopular.)
The guy who says he doesn't hate the Israelis, but the government...and not Americans, but their government. Sounds like me in the eighties saying I don't hate Russians, but I can't stand their government.
Interesting, the guy who knows 5 about Islam but isn't religious and has Jewish friends. He sounds the most reasonable. Interesting comments as well taking the interviewer to task a bit for interchanging Israel, Israelis & Jews.
So yes, many opinions across the board, which is similar to what I've found. This morning I went looking for unbiased (largely anyway) information sources because I really want to understand where the legitimate grievances against Israel come from. It's so hard now with so much bias and journalistic lack of integrity on both sides on this issue. I came up with, just to start Agence France Presse (it detects your browser's language so no need to speak French), Asian Times, and The Conversation, both of which I'm familiar with (always avoided AFP as my French isn't good enough, now I don't have to. Unfortunately their search engine sucks.) Read a good article on the Asian Times (reprinted from The Conversation) about how much of Palestine really can't stand Hamas and wishes they'd fuck off to hell. I know no source is ever 100% unbiased and I tend to lean on Media Bias Fact Check to state who's unbiased (at the moment anyway) but I'm more inclined to go with their 'unbiased' assessments, unless someone can come up with a better one. They note that both Asian Times and AFP are IFCN fact checkers, which led me to *their* website...I may write an article about how to research difficult subjects like this, since there's so much crap to sort through.
It was a given in my military days that when a bomb killed a farmer's daughter all the young men in the village picked up a rifle. That is the big flaw in overkill. How many enemies are created with every kill? Killing non-combatants creates enemies. But even the combatants have people who lived them, even if it is only their mother.
"And I think that Israel recognising and taking active steps to end its part in this mess would go a long, long way to doing that."
It would still take at least a generation. Muslims hold long grudges and the Palis have plenty they want to avenge. I doubt anyone in either territory is more than two degrees of separation from some killed by Israel or by those horrid settlers, who do it for sport.
This is an utterly vile post, painting in such unnuanced broad strokes that it's impossible to reconcile with the thoughtfulness I've seen you exhibit. The savagery you aimed at me in that since-deleted post rolls off after reading this.
My guess is that Hamas' treatment of WOMYN has snapped your chain. Corroborated by the oft-repeated stuff about how badly I would be treated there, being a gay man. Well. I've worked with a lot of Muslims; Palestinians, Pakistanis, Lebanese, and all knew I'm gay and not a one of them gave a damn. But I've already written about nomadic peoples and their infant mortality rates so that's all I have to say about that.
But read your own words:
𝐵𝑢𝑡 𝐼 𝑑𝑜𝑛'𝑡 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑣𝑒 𝑃𝑎𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑠 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑖𝑡 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚 𝑡𝑜 𝑏𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒. 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑙𝑜𝑣𝑒 ℎ𝑎𝑡𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑎 𝑔𝑒𝑛𝑜𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑎𝑙 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤. 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑦'𝑟𝑒 𝑑𝑦𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑏𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑟𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑡ℎ 𝑐𝑢𝑙𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑣𝑜𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑢𝑠𝑒𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚 𝑎𝑠 ℎ𝑢𝑚𝑎𝑛 𝑠ℎ𝑖𝑒𝑙𝑑𝑠.
Word for word, the same lies that Israel spews. Do you really think that every Palestinian loops endlessly on hating Jews? That they don't cook food and love their families and maintain their motorbikes, and everything else people do, but just think "I hate Jews, kill them all" .. every day, all day?
Who says Hamas located their headquarters under a hospital? Israel says so. The same Israel that's been caught in lie after lie after lie. The same Israel that has failed to keep its agreements, the same Israel that elects rabid bigots like Netanyahu and Bennett, but you believe every word.
Yeah, Palestinians hate Israel. This is my shocked face. Israel has been murdering them, stealing their land, bulldozing their homes, shooting them for sport, treating them with cruelty that so exceeds any excuses about self-defense. It would be absolutely and astonishingly unlike humanity if they didn't hate Israel.
Suppose somehow Mexico came into Texas and started demolishing towns and setting up Spanish-speaking settlements and shooting any Americans who weren't happy about it. Would you be calling those Americans "terrorists" and calling them "hateful bigots?" Forget for the moment that they would be repelled by those people whose garages are arsenals. Are you so enraged that Hamas tortured and raped some women that you can't follow the comparison?
I mentioned that Netanyahu promoted Hamas, assuring that the PA would not govern both territories, but it sounds like "Bibi" gets a pass because "HamsterAss." It makes no impression.
And you don't have a word to say about the greatest act of theft in human history or the legitimacy of Palestinian grievances, with only a perfunctory box-check that Israel hasn't been, what was the word, "angelic."
While Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayelet_Shaked) called for the murder of all Palestinian mothers; this wasn't an overheard remark at a dinner party, this was from the podium in her official capacity. I hope I don't need to point out that Palestinian mothers are women too, but, hey, I guess that doesn't matter. Let me guess, what's the difference between Israeli women and Palestinian women?
I'll come to me soon.
“They love hatred and a genocidal view”
Rubbish.
If you’d buried a child, shot in the back by joyriding Israeli soldiers from a helicopter, would you feel any different?
You’re better than this, Nicole, at least I thought you were.
Funny, I thought a gay gay would have less of a hard-on for people who hate people like him. *I* don't support people who hate me (which the Gazan nuts do), but maybe you're different.
I mean, the shit they did to Israeli women brought a whole new creativity to inflicting pain and degradation during mass rape that must have the Nazis writhing in jealous that they didn't think of it first.
I know the Israelis are no angels either, but I think they could live peaceably without terrorist neighbours. Unfortunately their terrorist neighbours can't live peaceably with them.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
You trade in caricatures. Simpleminded ones at that. Like "all Palestinians are terrorists." Or "all Muslims would murder you for being gay." Which makes me wonder how I survived screwing several of them.
Isn't there some vestigial piece of your mind that pauses as you write junk like that?
Hamas' rape and torture of Israeli women seems to have overwhelmed your reason, yet the former Justice Minister calling for the murder of all Palestinian mothers seems to have left no impression.
Pretty hypocritical.