Somewhat agreed. The Palestinians have some pretty legitimate grievances against Israel, and the US and its allies for supporting them and looking the other way when they violate certain agreements. But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews which goes on for hundreds and hundre…
Somewhat agreed. The Palestinians have some pretty legitimate grievances against Israel, and the US and its allies for supporting them and looking the other way when they violate certain agreements. But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews which goes on for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anti-Semitism and hatred of other non-Muslims is 'baked into' the Koran, to cadge a phrase from campus Hamas groupies. Steve, I honestly don't think the Palestinians could live by themselves with or without Hamas, with or without Israel. They are so steeped in hatred, their children are steeped in it from birth, that it takes a helluva free thinker to move beyond that sort of hate prison. We can talk about the real abuse of Palestinian rights all we want, but I for one wouldn't support a two-state solution for them until they publicly stated they refute the notion of 'river to the sea' and agree to share the land with Jews. If they can't do that, then, I'm sorry, fuck 'em. I don't think they could live in peace with each other if all the Jews and Hamas disappeared. What would they do with all that hate? Turn on each other. Maybe I'm extremely pessimistic but I don't think they'll be ready for self-government for many, many generations. And even if they DID agree to live with Jews, how would the rest ot the kill-all-the-Jews Arab world handle that? Would they go along with it? I don't think so. But hey, they're all welcome to prove me wrong.
"But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews"
I'm not sure what has you so convinced of this. I've watched so many interview with Palestinians over the past month. They hate the blockade, yes, but almost none of them have expressed hate for Jews. No more than the Jews I've seen interviewed expressed hatred for Palestinians.
The Quran says all kinds of terrible things. As does pretty much every "holy" book. But most religious people don't adhere to (in fact, most aren't even aware of) every word written in their holy books. Jihad is a feature of Islam. But far from all Muslims are Jihadis.
Beyond that, polling from 2006, the last we have before Hamas came to power, showed that 79.5% of Palestinians wanted peace with Israel (http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/blmain.html). 75.2% thought Hamas should change its policies regarding Israel. The evidence suggests that Palestinians aren't the radicalised sociopaths you seem to think they are.
Religious dogma is always an obstacle to resolving any real-world issue. There is certainly hate there (again, from some Jews too). But I think most people, Palestinians and Jews, still want peace. Or, at least, they prefer it to the alternative.
When mice got into my house and I heard them scurrying under the bed at night, I didn’t hate them. I just wanted them gone. Same for cockroaches.
You won’t hear much from Israelis about how much they hate Arabs. They don’t need to. The presumption of Jewish supremacy runs too deep for that. It’s a very different sort of bigotry from the inferiority complex that drives rural southern American whites.
I reject that hackneyed and reflexive charge of antisemitism for saying this. It comes from friends who live in or have visited Israel. In the days of psychedelic trance a lot of the artists were Israelis, we communicated a lot, and to a man they deplored the nonchalance of their countrymen’s dismissal of Arabs as subhuman.
We’ve heard from both Israelis and Palestinians who want peace. You won’t hear it from the settlers or their movement.
I see no way out of this not externally imposed, and nobody is going to do that. Biden is a stenographer. AIPAC has vast funds to keep anyone not stridently supportive of Israel out of office.
The rest of the world is seeing the wanton brutality but Israel is less likely to see reality than the GOP.
Less recently, having read the Koran years ago (still have it on my bookshelf) and 1,400 years of anti-Semitism and Christophobia. Not to mention looking at what a lot of these Islamofascist terrorist groups want (the extermination of the Jews from river to sea) not to mention a fairly ludicrous but serious threat to the West: The desire to bring the One True Religion to the rest of us, by force if not by persuasion. Sound like any other religion you can think of? Although that one has civilized itself a lot in the last few centuries.
Check out the stats of what Palestinians elsewhere say about Jews and the desire for peace, consider how many two-state solutions they've turned down, and then tell me they still want peace. A minority do, for sure. And the West Bank is less insane than Gaza.
People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. Talk is cheap. Action (or inaction) is louder than words.
I'm sorry, Steve, I just don't trust the Palestinians as far as I can throw them. They, and Hamas, represent some of the very worst excesses of violent right-wing dogma, not to mention all the pathologies that come along with it - hatred of women, 'Others', homosexuals, etc. The same people who condemn Donald Trump and the Christian Right jump up and down like excited cheerleaders for Hamas's touchdown on Oct 7. I have long found the Palestinians to be the world's least sympathetic victims and now I feel it even more so.
Israel has a lot to answer for too, but I think a lot of what looks like 'oppression' is actually a need for security. As the article notes, terrorism, violence and anti-Semitism is simply part of the culture. The Vietnamese didn't turn into terrorists and the Americans bombed them a fuckuva lot harder than the Palestinians have been. If anyone should have a hate-on for Americans it's the Japanese, since they're the only people (so far) to have been *nuked* - and that was beyond nightmarish. And yet *they're* not terrorists. Maybe it's because they're not Muslim. In fact, I'd bet my life on it. Islam has some good things going for it, but it's got an ugly cancer they haven't yet addressed for a very, very long time.
"People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. "
😅 You think people in Gaza are worried about being politically correct or virtue signalling? The same people who overwhelmingly and publicly support sharia law and outlawing homosexuality when polled? In fact, you think virtue signalling in Gaza means calling for peace with Israel rather than the other way around? Who do you think they're trying to impress? Twitter? I see no reason to believe they'd lie. Especially in a way that supported Israel.
People in Gaza have good reason to hate Israel. If you were living there, regardless of what God you believed in, you wouldn't think highly of Israel either. No, I don't think that would turn you or any sane person into a terrorist. And, of course, it hasn't turned ~99% of the people living in Gaza into terrorists either.
So if you want to talk about the problems with Islam as an ideology, fine. I'm right there with you. (of course, you could also talk out the problems with Christianity and Judaism as ideologies, their holy books aren't too friendly towards women and homosexuals either I'll remind you). But just as most Christians and Jews aren't killing people because of the stupid things their holy books say, nor are most Muslims.
You're writing off 2.3 million people because of the actions of a few hundred men. If that. Which, not for nothing, is exactly what Trump did with his Muslim ban. God damn I hate the instinct that makes people do this.
I'm already well-familiar with the past evils of Christianity and Judaism; last night after my arrival at my family's in the States a brief topic of conversation is, "Why We Understand Why Some People Have Hated the Jews." I said anyone who had to live with them in Biblical times sure had good reason, based on the Old Testament. And as a Pagan I can speak up one side and down the other about the evils of Christianity. But...neither of those religions is actively launching terrorist attacks. If you look at the research in that article, it shows rather a lot of support for terrorism, Hamas, laws that hate one people dear to liberals' hearts, etc. Now, maybe those surveys aren't right; I don't know. Surveys aren't the most reliable sources of information, and people will sometimes give what they think is the 'right' answer (or the ones they think will make their people look better to the rest of the world). There's just too much support for terrorism, and I keep thinking of how many times they've turned down a two-state solution. So yeah, I suspect virtue signalling. But I could be wrong.
Not convinced it's just 'a few hundred men', frankly.
“They” didn’t turn down a two-state solution any more than you pulled out of the Paris accords or implemented a Muslim ban.
If you have a minute, check out this video on Palestinian feelings towards Jews and Israel. There’s a range of responses, they certainly aren’t all virtue signalling, but there’s far more depth to the answers than you might expect (https://youtu.be/2pjFJ0HPt5g?si=NqM0jDAKEqwhFVnK)
Interesting. Some say they hate Israel, some middling, one guy says he doesn't hate anyone. I would say, maybe. The problem with surveys is that unless they're conducted in a very specific way you often don't get honest answers, especially when you train a camera on someone. It's why scientific research has to be conducted so carefully because people will tell the researcher what they think they want to hear or what makes themselves look good.
The interviewer saying, "I lived during the intifadas and never heard anyone say, 'Kill a Palestinian, get a dollar'. I had a Jordanian Muslim friend who said she never heard of honour killings in Jordan. Never mind that at the time they were about 50% of female deaths (not sure what it is now, this was about 18 years ago). I used to talk to a New York Orthodox Jew who had lived and studied in Jerusalem for awhile and that he was on the police force & disclaimed any knowledge of Israeli cops roughing up Palestinians or using a torture device called 'the hood'. Denied that even existed. A few months later I posted a news story in the forum to say, "Hey L, looks like the Israeli police are going to stop using the hood you said didn't exist. And that they're going to stop torturing the prisoners you said they weren't torturing." It's amazing what people don't 'know' about their own cultures...when the news is bad. (I wonder about the man who says, "There are no Arab Muslims who like Israel." Maybe they do but they don't say so in Gaza because it would be...well, pretty unpopular.)
The guy who says he doesn't hate the Israelis, but the government...and not Americans, but their government. Sounds like me in the eighties saying I don't hate Russians, but I can't stand their government.
Interesting, the guy who knows 5 about Islam but isn't religious and has Jewish friends. He sounds the most reasonable. Interesting comments as well taking the interviewer to task a bit for interchanging Israel, Israelis & Jews.
So yes, many opinions across the board, which is similar to what I've found. This morning I went looking for unbiased (largely anyway) information sources because I really want to understand where the legitimate grievances against Israel come from. It's so hard now with so much bias and journalistic lack of integrity on both sides on this issue. I came up with, just to start Agence France Presse (it detects your browser's language so no need to speak French), Asian Times, and The Conversation, both of which I'm familiar with (always avoided AFP as my French isn't good enough, now I don't have to. Unfortunately their search engine sucks.) Read a good article on the Asian Times (reprinted from The Conversation) about how much of Palestine really can't stand Hamas and wishes they'd fuck off to hell. I know no source is ever 100% unbiased and I tend to lean on Media Bias Fact Check to state who's unbiased (at the moment anyway) but I'm more inclined to go with their 'unbiased' assessments, unless someone can come up with a better one. They note that both Asian Times and AFP are IFCN fact checkers, which led me to *their* website...I may write an article about how to research difficult subjects like this, since there's so much crap to sort through.
Somewhat agreed. The Palestinians have some pretty legitimate grievances against Israel, and the US and its allies for supporting them and looking the other way when they violate certain agreements. But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews which goes on for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anti-Semitism and hatred of other non-Muslims is 'baked into' the Koran, to cadge a phrase from campus Hamas groupies. Steve, I honestly don't think the Palestinians could live by themselves with or without Hamas, with or without Israel. They are so steeped in hatred, their children are steeped in it from birth, that it takes a helluva free thinker to move beyond that sort of hate prison. We can talk about the real abuse of Palestinian rights all we want, but I for one wouldn't support a two-state solution for them until they publicly stated they refute the notion of 'river to the sea' and agree to share the land with Jews. If they can't do that, then, I'm sorry, fuck 'em. I don't think they could live in peace with each other if all the Jews and Hamas disappeared. What would they do with all that hate? Turn on each other. Maybe I'm extremely pessimistic but I don't think they'll be ready for self-government for many, many generations. And even if they DID agree to live with Jews, how would the rest ot the kill-all-the-Jews Arab world handle that? Would they go along with it? I don't think so. But hey, they're all welcome to prove me wrong.
"But honestly, what radicalizes Palestinians far more than Israel is their intense hate-on for the Jews"
I'm not sure what has you so convinced of this. I've watched so many interview with Palestinians over the past month. They hate the blockade, yes, but almost none of them have expressed hate for Jews. No more than the Jews I've seen interviewed expressed hatred for Palestinians.
The Quran says all kinds of terrible things. As does pretty much every "holy" book. But most religious people don't adhere to (in fact, most aren't even aware of) every word written in their holy books. Jihad is a feature of Islam. But far from all Muslims are Jihadis.
Beyond that, polling from 2006, the last we have before Hamas came to power, showed that 79.5% of Palestinians wanted peace with Israel (http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/blmain.html). 75.2% thought Hamas should change its policies regarding Israel. The evidence suggests that Palestinians aren't the radicalised sociopaths you seem to think they are.
Religious dogma is always an obstacle to resolving any real-world issue. There is certainly hate there (again, from some Jews too). But I think most people, Palestinians and Jews, still want peace. Or, at least, they prefer it to the alternative.
When mice got into my house and I heard them scurrying under the bed at night, I didn’t hate them. I just wanted them gone. Same for cockroaches.
You won’t hear much from Israelis about how much they hate Arabs. They don’t need to. The presumption of Jewish supremacy runs too deep for that. It’s a very different sort of bigotry from the inferiority complex that drives rural southern American whites.
I reject that hackneyed and reflexive charge of antisemitism for saying this. It comes from friends who live in or have visited Israel. In the days of psychedelic trance a lot of the artists were Israelis, we communicated a lot, and to a man they deplored the nonchalance of their countrymen’s dismissal of Arabs as subhuman.
We’ve heard from both Israelis and Palestinians who want peace. You won’t hear it from the settlers or their movement.
I see no way out of this not externally imposed, and nobody is going to do that. Biden is a stenographer. AIPAC has vast funds to keep anyone not stridently supportive of Israel out of office.
The rest of the world is seeing the wanton brutality but Israel is less likely to see reality than the GOP.
"I'm not sure what has you so convinced of this."
This, most recently:
https://volodzko.substack.com/p/the-problem-is-palestinian-culture
Less recently, having read the Koran years ago (still have it on my bookshelf) and 1,400 years of anti-Semitism and Christophobia. Not to mention looking at what a lot of these Islamofascist terrorist groups want (the extermination of the Jews from river to sea) not to mention a fairly ludicrous but serious threat to the West: The desire to bring the One True Religion to the rest of us, by force if not by persuasion. Sound like any other religion you can think of? Although that one has civilized itself a lot in the last few centuries.
Check out the stats of what Palestinians elsewhere say about Jews and the desire for peace, consider how many two-state solutions they've turned down, and then tell me they still want peace. A minority do, for sure. And the West Bank is less insane than Gaza.
People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. Talk is cheap. Action (or inaction) is louder than words.
I'm sorry, Steve, I just don't trust the Palestinians as far as I can throw them. They, and Hamas, represent some of the very worst excesses of violent right-wing dogma, not to mention all the pathologies that come along with it - hatred of women, 'Others', homosexuals, etc. The same people who condemn Donald Trump and the Christian Right jump up and down like excited cheerleaders for Hamas's touchdown on Oct 7. I have long found the Palestinians to be the world's least sympathetic victims and now I feel it even more so.
Israel has a lot to answer for too, but I think a lot of what looks like 'oppression' is actually a need for security. As the article notes, terrorism, violence and anti-Semitism is simply part of the culture. The Vietnamese didn't turn into terrorists and the Americans bombed them a fuckuva lot harder than the Palestinians have been. If anyone should have a hate-on for Americans it's the Japanese, since they're the only people (so far) to have been *nuked* - and that was beyond nightmarish. And yet *they're* not terrorists. Maybe it's because they're not Muslim. In fact, I'd bet my life on it. Islam has some good things going for it, but it's got an ugly cancer they haven't yet addressed for a very, very long time.
"People will tell pollsters what they think they want to hear, or what they know is politically correct, or they'll virtue signal. "
😅 You think people in Gaza are worried about being politically correct or virtue signalling? The same people who overwhelmingly and publicly support sharia law and outlawing homosexuality when polled? In fact, you think virtue signalling in Gaza means calling for peace with Israel rather than the other way around? Who do you think they're trying to impress? Twitter? I see no reason to believe they'd lie. Especially in a way that supported Israel.
People in Gaza have good reason to hate Israel. If you were living there, regardless of what God you believed in, you wouldn't think highly of Israel either. No, I don't think that would turn you or any sane person into a terrorist. And, of course, it hasn't turned ~99% of the people living in Gaza into terrorists either.
So if you want to talk about the problems with Islam as an ideology, fine. I'm right there with you. (of course, you could also talk out the problems with Christianity and Judaism as ideologies, their holy books aren't too friendly towards women and homosexuals either I'll remind you). But just as most Christians and Jews aren't killing people because of the stupid things their holy books say, nor are most Muslims.
You're writing off 2.3 million people because of the actions of a few hundred men. If that. Which, not for nothing, is exactly what Trump did with his Muslim ban. God damn I hate the instinct that makes people do this.
I'm already well-familiar with the past evils of Christianity and Judaism; last night after my arrival at my family's in the States a brief topic of conversation is, "Why We Understand Why Some People Have Hated the Jews." I said anyone who had to live with them in Biblical times sure had good reason, based on the Old Testament. And as a Pagan I can speak up one side and down the other about the evils of Christianity. But...neither of those religions is actively launching terrorist attacks. If you look at the research in that article, it shows rather a lot of support for terrorism, Hamas, laws that hate one people dear to liberals' hearts, etc. Now, maybe those surveys aren't right; I don't know. Surveys aren't the most reliable sources of information, and people will sometimes give what they think is the 'right' answer (or the ones they think will make their people look better to the rest of the world). There's just too much support for terrorism, and I keep thinking of how many times they've turned down a two-state solution. So yeah, I suspect virtue signalling. But I could be wrong.
Not convinced it's just 'a few hundred men', frankly.
“They” didn’t turn down a two-state solution any more than you pulled out of the Paris accords or implemented a Muslim ban.
If you have a minute, check out this video on Palestinian feelings towards Jews and Israel. There’s a range of responses, they certainly aren’t all virtue signalling, but there’s far more depth to the answers than you might expect (https://youtu.be/2pjFJ0HPt5g?si=NqM0jDAKEqwhFVnK)
Interesting. Some say they hate Israel, some middling, one guy says he doesn't hate anyone. I would say, maybe. The problem with surveys is that unless they're conducted in a very specific way you often don't get honest answers, especially when you train a camera on someone. It's why scientific research has to be conducted so carefully because people will tell the researcher what they think they want to hear or what makes themselves look good.
The interviewer saying, "I lived during the intifadas and never heard anyone say, 'Kill a Palestinian, get a dollar'. I had a Jordanian Muslim friend who said she never heard of honour killings in Jordan. Never mind that at the time they were about 50% of female deaths (not sure what it is now, this was about 18 years ago). I used to talk to a New York Orthodox Jew who had lived and studied in Jerusalem for awhile and that he was on the police force & disclaimed any knowledge of Israeli cops roughing up Palestinians or using a torture device called 'the hood'. Denied that even existed. A few months later I posted a news story in the forum to say, "Hey L, looks like the Israeli police are going to stop using the hood you said didn't exist. And that they're going to stop torturing the prisoners you said they weren't torturing." It's amazing what people don't 'know' about their own cultures...when the news is bad. (I wonder about the man who says, "There are no Arab Muslims who like Israel." Maybe they do but they don't say so in Gaza because it would be...well, pretty unpopular.)
The guy who says he doesn't hate the Israelis, but the government...and not Americans, but their government. Sounds like me in the eighties saying I don't hate Russians, but I can't stand their government.
Interesting, the guy who knows 5 about Islam but isn't religious and has Jewish friends. He sounds the most reasonable. Interesting comments as well taking the interviewer to task a bit for interchanging Israel, Israelis & Jews.
So yes, many opinions across the board, which is similar to what I've found. This morning I went looking for unbiased (largely anyway) information sources because I really want to understand where the legitimate grievances against Israel come from. It's so hard now with so much bias and journalistic lack of integrity on both sides on this issue. I came up with, just to start Agence France Presse (it detects your browser's language so no need to speak French), Asian Times, and The Conversation, both of which I'm familiar with (always avoided AFP as my French isn't good enough, now I don't have to. Unfortunately their search engine sucks.) Read a good article on the Asian Times (reprinted from The Conversation) about how much of Palestine really can't stand Hamas and wishes they'd fuck off to hell. I know no source is ever 100% unbiased and I tend to lean on Media Bias Fact Check to state who's unbiased (at the moment anyway) but I'm more inclined to go with their 'unbiased' assessments, unless someone can come up with a better one. They note that both Asian Times and AFP are IFCN fact checkers, which led me to *their* website...I may write an article about how to research difficult subjects like this, since there's so much crap to sort through.