If we were to follow your reasoning, Russia controls Germany's electricity, so Germany is an open-air prison ruled by Russia. The fact that the stupid German governments decided they would buy gas from Russia (to keep their country "clean") rather than build power plants is not Russia's fault, but played directly into their hands. You kn…
If we were to follow your reasoning, Russia controls Germany's electricity, so Germany is an open-air prison ruled by Russia. The fact that the stupid German governments decided they would buy gas from Russia (to keep their country "clean") rather than build power plants is not Russia's fault, but played directly into their hands. You know exactly why Israel is in this position, as are Egypt and Jordan, for that matter (the blockade happens on all sides of the border). What's next? That Iran needs complete autonomy and control in developing nuclear power, and America and the international community should get out of their hair? "The aid is necessary because of the blockade". In fact, the aid is necessary because Hamas leaders have brought Palestine to the brink of bankruptcy, while making themselves billionaires. Instead of improving the lives of their people all they did was to enrich themselves, brainwash children, and build an arsenal to destroy their neighbor. I agree with some of your comments (including the insanity of Bibi's government and the atrocious indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians), but I fail to understand why you think Israel is to blame for the complete breakdown of that society BEFORE the massacre perpetrated by Hamas and their sympathizers, and why strategic interests of survival don't apply to Israel. There was a blockade against South Africa, and everybody agreed it was necessary. There was a blockade against Communist countries before 1989, and nobody bat an eyelid. During the WWII there was a blockade against Germany, Italy and France. There is a blockade against North Korea. There was a blockade against Yugoslavia in 93-96. There were blockades against Qatar, Nepal, Libya. There is a current blockade against Yemen.
As for the tunnels, as you state, SOME existed since the 1980s, to connect the Egyptian and Gazan sides of Rafa. They absolutely grew in size and sophistication after Egypt and Israel imposed the blockade. So you DO agree with me that the lack of fresh water is not Israel of Egypt's fault, but the fault of the Palestinian government, who had other priorities than supporting their citizens.
In fact, if I go back and read again your answer to my comment, I realize we are both saying the same thing, with small differences. We both agree Palestine and Israel have mistreated each other for a long time, and the current war is a tragedy that needs to stop. I guess we are coming from different sides, with me saying Palestine needs to make more concessions (including returning the hostages, getting rid of Hamas, stopping the terrorist attacks against Israel, accepting a two-states solution, etc.), while you think it is Israel that needs to appease the Palestinians, by stopping the war immediately, lifting the blockade, giving them complete autonomy (including the control over their airspace and territorial waters), etc. Basically, you think Palestinians are the ultimate victims here, they have good intentions and are just usurped by Israel, while I view this in a completely opposite light: I strongly believe in Jews' rights to have a country on the land of their ancestors, I think they have the right to protect themselves but make some concessions (West Bank, more support for the civic society in Palestine), and I am convinced many Palestinians will never stop wanting to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out of the area (history proves I'm right here). Frankly, I am very pessimistic about that part of the word and I don't think there is a viable solution yet.
"Russia controls Germany's electricity, so Germany is an open-air prison ruled by Russia."
No. This logic doesn't hold, again, because Germany has full control over its airspace and territorial waters. As all countries should. They can import and export freely and so have the option of building their own power infrastructure. Yes, European reliance on Russia for power is a problem. A problem that's been sharply highlighted by the Russia/Ukraine war. But Russia is dependent on the money they receive arguably as much as Germany is dependent other power. The relationship is much more balanced which is why it's relatively stable even though the diplomatic situation is quite tense. Russia isn't just going to turn off the power.
But that said, again, I'm not trying to deflect criticism from Hamas. I've never ever suggested they have good intentions. They've openly stated they aren't interested in stabilising the situation in Gaza or improving conditions for the people living there. It feels as if so many people looking at this conflict don't realise that criticising both Israel and Hamas is an option. This manic, unconditional defence of Israel is the reason why people like Netanyahu have become so emboldened. Support isn't supposed to be unconditional. Otherwise, terrible people will take advantage of it.
But yes, I see the Palestinian people as victims. Because they are. Ever since the creation of Israel, Palestinians have been treated in horrifying, inhumane ways. The Nakba alone is justification for a generation of Palestinians to hate Israel. So while the concessions you'd like to see from Hamas, concessions I agree with completely, are all based on atrocities committed in the past six months, the concessions I'd like to see from Israel, concessions that I believe would have prevented Oct 7th from even happening, are based on atrocities committed over the past few decades.
I don't believe in any religious right to a piece of land. In fact, the concept is incredibly dangerous when you think about it. And the turmoil in that part of the world is evidence of that. Jews were already living in that part of the world for centuries. I'm not contesting their right to do so. But the creation of a state specifically for Jewish people, where rights are apportioned by ethnographic religious identity, where they openly steal land and control land ownership to maintain a Jewish majority "even at the expense of human rights," as Ayelet Shaked put it (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-02-13/ty-article/justice-minister-israels-jewish-majority-trumps-than-human-rights/0000017f-e76d-d97e-a37f-f76d21180000), THAT is a unique and dangerous idea and one that I think will fail.
And yes, some Palestinians will never stop wanting to kick Jews out of the area. Just as some Jews will never stop wanting to take over all of the land because they think a man in the sky promised it to them. Just as some people will never stop wanting to kill all black people. Just as some men will never stop wanting to hurt women because they remind hum of his mother. There will always be evil, deranged people who hate others fro stupid reasons.
But the reason most people aren't killing each other is because they aren't being given *good* reasons to hate each other. As I've said many times, I 100% understand anybody living in Gaza right now who says they hate Israel. You, and I and any human being, would feel the same way in their situation. And sure, if you follow the chain cause and effect and stop very abruptly at Oct 7th, you might say they should blame Hamas just as much. But most sane people will blame the people who dropped the bombs on their children. And some of those people will seek revenge in future.
"Most sane people will blame the people who dropped the bombs on their children". Funny enough, nobody said this about Germany after the WWII. In the aftermath, Germans around the world were treated horribly, excommunicated, exiled, even killed, but in the end they were helped as a nation to rebuild and go back to normal. No normal person would want to punish a whole nation/ethnicity/community/group for things that many times are beyond their control (a government's decision; an accident; etc.). You know this as well as I do, because...racism. One of the fundamental tenets of racism, which is, alas, still well and thriving in the world. You are absolutely wrong in believing that Palestinians are the most oppressed people in the world, hence they are justified in killing Jews. I don't even know where to begin to show you how wrong you are. Only going through examples would take me a whole book. You are also wrong in believing that Israel was a country artificially (and specifically) created for Jewish people. "Poland" entirely disappeared from the map from 1795 to 1917. And then again from 1939 to 1945. But the Polish PEOPLE never went away, as much as the Germans or Russians might have wanted them to. It's the same with Israel. Why would you blame Jews for wanting to maintain a majority in their own country? Becoming a minority (again) in an area where people want to actively genocide them? That is exactly what BDS agitators want, a "return" of Palestinian refugees so that Jews could never make decision for themselves again. Anyway, I see this is an unproductive exchange, as you are convinced of your truth, while I am seeing things in a completely different light. You kinda lost me when talking about Nakba as a disaster provoked by enraged Jews colonisers who just wanted to steal the land from Arabs, and about the creation of a state based on ethnographic religious identity. Not only do you forget WHY the Jews were compelled to create a state based on ethnic affiliation, but you also completely overlook what happened on the other side (after 1948, more than 850,000 Jews fled rising persecutions or where expelled from Arab and Muslim lands where they have lived for more than 3,000 years, and they were never given the status of refugee or promised the right to return). In 1936, the anti Zionist Peel Commission released a report to address Arab violence and announce a policy of Arab appeasement. Even the anti Zionist Peel Commission couldn’t overlook the basic fact that Arab anti-Jewish sentiment was at an all time high and the Arabs repeatedly resorted to violence against the Jews while the Jews patiently adhered to the law. As for Nakba, your take is a page from BDS propaganda machine. Read the memoirs of people who have been there in the moment, like King Abdallah of Jordan (My Memoirs Completed), or those of Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, or read the Lebanese papers from the time, or the Syrian prime-minister at the time, Haled Al Asm, or even the British secret service files that are now open. Do you want quotes? Sure: " Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve their return" (The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Beirut, 1973, pp. 386-387). "The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews in to the sea. Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down" (Habib Issa, in Al Hoda journal, Lebanon, June 8, 1951). "The Arab states encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies" (Filastin newspaper, Jordan, Feb. 19, 1949). "The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they didn't get in." (one refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954). "This wholesale exodus was due to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastic and unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country" (Edward Atiyah, the Secretary of the Arab League Office in London in his book The Arabs, 1955, p. 183). On March 8 1948, the Arab Higher Committee ordered women, children, and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order is an obstacle to the holy war, and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts". They also ordered the evacuation of "several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozen more." (Middle eastern Studies, Jan. 1986). "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city. By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa." (Time's report of the battle for Haifa, May 3, 1948). Was there forceful grab of land and homes by Jews in 1948 and 1949? Yes, there was, but nowhere as dramatic as it is presented by Palestinian activists (and that doesn't even equate what happened to Jews in Arab states during the same time!). By 1939, before one-third of world Jewry was destroyed in the Holocaust, a geographic and demographic nucleus for a Jewish state was present in Mandatory Palestine. By that date, more than 500,000 Jews and almost 75% of all the land Jews would purchase by 1948 were already in Jewish hands. The Jews had built their state and created all the civic organizations necessary to run their state well before WW2. Again, by 1939 the modern state of Israel existed in all respects but for independence. The modern state of Israel was built and created SOLELY BY JEWS, over a period of almost 100 years, using Jewish capital (it is a very well known fact, acknowledged by the Arab Higher Committee). In the years immediately preceding the approval of the Mandate of Palestine by the League of Nations , over 100,000 Jews lived in the Land of Israel. Rishon Le-Zion, Zichron Ya'akov, Petach Tikvah and Rosh Pina were established prior to 1904. Tel Aviv was founded in 1909. Technion – Israel Institute of Technology, Israel’s first university, was founded in 1912, 36 years before Israel’s Declaration of Independence. The Hebrew University was founded in Jerusalem in 1918. The principle of Jewish self-help was extended to the area of defense with the creation of "HaShomer", the Watchman, an association of Jewish guards set up in 1909 to defend Jewish settlements. Most of the advances and improvements in the British mandate area were the result of Jewish capital and ingenuity. The work of the Hadassah Medical Organisation, a strong and efficient body established by American Zionists, is particularly exceptional, and, like the draining of swamps by Jews, it benefited Arabs. New hospitals were built, child-welfare centres and clinics opened, training for nurses and midwives provided. Jerusalem obtained a proper water-supply. Hundreds of miles of road were laid, facilitating omnibus services and a great increase in other motor traffic. The railway system was re-organized and renovated. In all these and in other ways a vigorous beginning had been made by I925 in providing backward Palestine with the material equipment of a modern state. The Jews took a neglected, backwater district of the Ottoman Empire and turned it into a functioning, modern state!
To sum up, the Jews had already put in place all the infrastructure and organizations needed to run a state by 1925, while their own people were massacred by Arabs. In the report of the Commission of Enquiry, under Sir Walter Shaw, who visited Palestine from October to December I929, the causes of the outbreaks of violence were clearly stated. " There can, in our view, be no doubt that racial animosity on the part of the Arabs …was the cause of the outbreak of the Arab violence.” And that, my friend, can be a "good reason" to hate, as you say in your comment above. The hate didn't start in 1949, and the bombs had a one-way direction ever since (until October last year): they were always directed from Palestine to Israel.
"You are absolutely wrong in believing that Palestinians are the most oppressed people in the world, hence they are justified in killing Jews. I don't even know where to begin to show you how wrong you are."
Uh, you'll be relieved to hear you don't have to start anywhere. Because I didn't EVEN REMOTELY suggest this!! Where on Earth did you get this from??! I've been absolutely unequivocal in my condemnation of Hamas and of the killing of innocent people ON BOTH SIDES.
It's so surreal. I talk to people about charged, emotional topics every day. I'm used to it at this point. And yet, whether it's race or trans people or now Israel, I never cease to be amazed by just how far people's reading of words can get from the words actually written down.
As for whether Israel is a country for Jewish people, how do you explain the fact that a Jew from the Bronx, or, indeed, anywhere else in the world, can go to Israel and be granted to citizenship but an Arab whose family was born in Jerusalem can't get those same rights?
Or that Israel restricts landownership and purchasing rights to Jews only in parts of Israel and the West Bank (https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians). Why do you think that there is universal international agreement that Israel is involution of international law? Do you think this is all just people being mean to Israel? Even the countries currently sending them weapons?
And come on, seriously? The bombs had a "one-way direction" since 1949?? Have you heard of Operation Protective Edge? Or Operation Cast Lead? You can support Israel. You can hate Hamas. You can question the Palestinian commitment to peace. We might have small disagreements there, but that's all fair game. But you have to be more curious than this. You have to at least try to understand the full picture. You're saying things here that are just flat out untrue. Not matters of opinion or perspective, just totally untrue.
You keep trying to paint me as a biased and closed-minded on this topic. You can tell yourself that if you like. All I'd ask you to do, if you believe that you're *not* biased and are interested in the truth, is verify some of the claims I've made here for yourself. I've provided links to some. Feel free to ask for further evidence of anything else I've claimed here.
There are instances of housing discrimination in Israel, like in every other country on Earth. USA is no better, as you very well know. And still, we have no complaints about Jews being actually killed if they set foot in Palestine, let's complain about Palestinians not having housing equity in Israel. Are you equally well informed about inequality in ALL other countries in the Middle East? https://carnegie-mec.org/2020/03/12/inequality-and-its-discontents-in-middle-east-pub-81266
I am curious to know why this insistence on Israel and all the ugly sides that come with living in that part of the world? Are you a scholar of the Arab-Israeli conflict? Are you enraged by the 10 million Sudanese killed or expelled by Islamic militias and who constitute, right now, the most serious humanitarian crisis in the world? Are you equally interested by the situation in Yemen? If you don't know much about them, you might ask yourself why. You might come to understand why there is enough room in the world for 57 Muslim ethno-religious countries, but not enough for a small Jewish one. You are, sadly, taking a page from the contemporary ideology at play in America and Western countries: insisting so much on "exposing" the worst in the best democracies around (there is no perfect country on Earth), that we fail to see that the alternative is even worse. Have a good day, I said I would stop and I didn't, my bad.
It feels like we're not going to get anywhere here. But yes, actually the situation in the USA is very different. If you were saying this 60 years ago, I'd have agreed with you, but not today. And, of course, if you *were* saying this 60 years ago, you'd find that I'd object just as strongly to the discriminatory practices in the US as I do to the ones in Israel. Using one example of terrible injustice to justify another is very strange.
And yes, to answer your question, I'm enraged by all genocides. But my country isn't funding any of those as far as I'm aware. And again, if the argument is really, "why is it okay for these other countries to commit genocide but not ours?" I think you've hit the bottom of the barrel.
And of course I'd object to Jews being killed if they entered the West Bank or Gaza. Although, of course, Jews DO enter the west Bank. And more often than not, in the case of settlers, it's the Jews doing the killing.
It's so silly to keep declaring that I don't care about Jewish lives despite my repeatedly telling you that I do. I've written several articles condemning the killing of Jews as well as criticising antisemitism. You're arguing with your imagination.
Anyway, I won't try to convince you of anything anymore. Instead, if you're interested, I'd really like you to flesh out why you're so devoted to defending or deflecting from Israel's misdeeds. You touched on it in an earlier reply when you said you strongly believe in Jews' right to have a country in the land of their ancestors, but if you're up for it, I'd really like you to flesh it out. I'm desperate to understand this in as well-rounded and good-faith a way as possible.
I won't reply or turn this into a new topic of debate, I'll give you the last word, I'd just like to hear what motivates your feelings on this topic.
If we were to follow your reasoning, Russia controls Germany's electricity, so Germany is an open-air prison ruled by Russia. The fact that the stupid German governments decided they would buy gas from Russia (to keep their country "clean") rather than build power plants is not Russia's fault, but played directly into their hands. You know exactly why Israel is in this position, as are Egypt and Jordan, for that matter (the blockade happens on all sides of the border). What's next? That Iran needs complete autonomy and control in developing nuclear power, and America and the international community should get out of their hair? "The aid is necessary because of the blockade". In fact, the aid is necessary because Hamas leaders have brought Palestine to the brink of bankruptcy, while making themselves billionaires. Instead of improving the lives of their people all they did was to enrich themselves, brainwash children, and build an arsenal to destroy their neighbor. I agree with some of your comments (including the insanity of Bibi's government and the atrocious indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians), but I fail to understand why you think Israel is to blame for the complete breakdown of that society BEFORE the massacre perpetrated by Hamas and their sympathizers, and why strategic interests of survival don't apply to Israel. There was a blockade against South Africa, and everybody agreed it was necessary. There was a blockade against Communist countries before 1989, and nobody bat an eyelid. During the WWII there was a blockade against Germany, Italy and France. There is a blockade against North Korea. There was a blockade against Yugoslavia in 93-96. There were blockades against Qatar, Nepal, Libya. There is a current blockade against Yemen.
As for the tunnels, as you state, SOME existed since the 1980s, to connect the Egyptian and Gazan sides of Rafa. They absolutely grew in size and sophistication after Egypt and Israel imposed the blockade. So you DO agree with me that the lack of fresh water is not Israel of Egypt's fault, but the fault of the Palestinian government, who had other priorities than supporting their citizens.
In fact, if I go back and read again your answer to my comment, I realize we are both saying the same thing, with small differences. We both agree Palestine and Israel have mistreated each other for a long time, and the current war is a tragedy that needs to stop. I guess we are coming from different sides, with me saying Palestine needs to make more concessions (including returning the hostages, getting rid of Hamas, stopping the terrorist attacks against Israel, accepting a two-states solution, etc.), while you think it is Israel that needs to appease the Palestinians, by stopping the war immediately, lifting the blockade, giving them complete autonomy (including the control over their airspace and territorial waters), etc. Basically, you think Palestinians are the ultimate victims here, they have good intentions and are just usurped by Israel, while I view this in a completely opposite light: I strongly believe in Jews' rights to have a country on the land of their ancestors, I think they have the right to protect themselves but make some concessions (West Bank, more support for the civic society in Palestine), and I am convinced many Palestinians will never stop wanting to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out of the area (history proves I'm right here). Frankly, I am very pessimistic about that part of the word and I don't think there is a viable solution yet.
"Russia controls Germany's electricity, so Germany is an open-air prison ruled by Russia."
No. This logic doesn't hold, again, because Germany has full control over its airspace and territorial waters. As all countries should. They can import and export freely and so have the option of building their own power infrastructure. Yes, European reliance on Russia for power is a problem. A problem that's been sharply highlighted by the Russia/Ukraine war. But Russia is dependent on the money they receive arguably as much as Germany is dependent other power. The relationship is much more balanced which is why it's relatively stable even though the diplomatic situation is quite tense. Russia isn't just going to turn off the power.
But that said, again, I'm not trying to deflect criticism from Hamas. I've never ever suggested they have good intentions. They've openly stated they aren't interested in stabilising the situation in Gaza or improving conditions for the people living there. It feels as if so many people looking at this conflict don't realise that criticising both Israel and Hamas is an option. This manic, unconditional defence of Israel is the reason why people like Netanyahu have become so emboldened. Support isn't supposed to be unconditional. Otherwise, terrible people will take advantage of it.
But yes, I see the Palestinian people as victims. Because they are. Ever since the creation of Israel, Palestinians have been treated in horrifying, inhumane ways. The Nakba alone is justification for a generation of Palestinians to hate Israel. So while the concessions you'd like to see from Hamas, concessions I agree with completely, are all based on atrocities committed in the past six months, the concessions I'd like to see from Israel, concessions that I believe would have prevented Oct 7th from even happening, are based on atrocities committed over the past few decades.
I don't believe in any religious right to a piece of land. In fact, the concept is incredibly dangerous when you think about it. And the turmoil in that part of the world is evidence of that. Jews were already living in that part of the world for centuries. I'm not contesting their right to do so. But the creation of a state specifically for Jewish people, where rights are apportioned by ethnographic religious identity, where they openly steal land and control land ownership to maintain a Jewish majority "even at the expense of human rights," as Ayelet Shaked put it (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-02-13/ty-article/justice-minister-israels-jewish-majority-trumps-than-human-rights/0000017f-e76d-d97e-a37f-f76d21180000), THAT is a unique and dangerous idea and one that I think will fail.
And yes, some Palestinians will never stop wanting to kick Jews out of the area. Just as some Jews will never stop wanting to take over all of the land because they think a man in the sky promised it to them. Just as some people will never stop wanting to kill all black people. Just as some men will never stop wanting to hurt women because they remind hum of his mother. There will always be evil, deranged people who hate others fro stupid reasons.
But the reason most people aren't killing each other is because they aren't being given *good* reasons to hate each other. As I've said many times, I 100% understand anybody living in Gaza right now who says they hate Israel. You, and I and any human being, would feel the same way in their situation. And sure, if you follow the chain cause and effect and stop very abruptly at Oct 7th, you might say they should blame Hamas just as much. But most sane people will blame the people who dropped the bombs on their children. And some of those people will seek revenge in future.
"Most sane people will blame the people who dropped the bombs on their children". Funny enough, nobody said this about Germany after the WWII. In the aftermath, Germans around the world were treated horribly, excommunicated, exiled, even killed, but in the end they were helped as a nation to rebuild and go back to normal. No normal person would want to punish a whole nation/ethnicity/community/group for things that many times are beyond their control (a government's decision; an accident; etc.). You know this as well as I do, because...racism. One of the fundamental tenets of racism, which is, alas, still well and thriving in the world. You are absolutely wrong in believing that Palestinians are the most oppressed people in the world, hence they are justified in killing Jews. I don't even know where to begin to show you how wrong you are. Only going through examples would take me a whole book. You are also wrong in believing that Israel was a country artificially (and specifically) created for Jewish people. "Poland" entirely disappeared from the map from 1795 to 1917. And then again from 1939 to 1945. But the Polish PEOPLE never went away, as much as the Germans or Russians might have wanted them to. It's the same with Israel. Why would you blame Jews for wanting to maintain a majority in their own country? Becoming a minority (again) in an area where people want to actively genocide them? That is exactly what BDS agitators want, a "return" of Palestinian refugees so that Jews could never make decision for themselves again. Anyway, I see this is an unproductive exchange, as you are convinced of your truth, while I am seeing things in a completely different light. You kinda lost me when talking about Nakba as a disaster provoked by enraged Jews colonisers who just wanted to steal the land from Arabs, and about the creation of a state based on ethnographic religious identity. Not only do you forget WHY the Jews were compelled to create a state based on ethnic affiliation, but you also completely overlook what happened on the other side (after 1948, more than 850,000 Jews fled rising persecutions or where expelled from Arab and Muslim lands where they have lived for more than 3,000 years, and they were never given the status of refugee or promised the right to return). In 1936, the anti Zionist Peel Commission released a report to address Arab violence and announce a policy of Arab appeasement. Even the anti Zionist Peel Commission couldn’t overlook the basic fact that Arab anti-Jewish sentiment was at an all time high and the Arabs repeatedly resorted to violence against the Jews while the Jews patiently adhered to the law. As for Nakba, your take is a page from BDS propaganda machine. Read the memoirs of people who have been there in the moment, like King Abdallah of Jordan (My Memoirs Completed), or those of Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, or read the Lebanese papers from the time, or the Syrian prime-minister at the time, Haled Al Asm, or even the British secret service files that are now open. Do you want quotes? Sure: " Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve their return" (The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Beirut, 1973, pp. 386-387). "The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews in to the sea. Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down" (Habib Issa, in Al Hoda journal, Lebanon, June 8, 1951). "The Arab states encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies" (Filastin newspaper, Jordan, Feb. 19, 1949). "The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they didn't get in." (one refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954). "This wholesale exodus was due to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastic and unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country" (Edward Atiyah, the Secretary of the Arab League Office in London in his book The Arabs, 1955, p. 183). On March 8 1948, the Arab Higher Committee ordered women, children, and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order is an obstacle to the holy war, and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts". They also ordered the evacuation of "several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozen more." (Middle eastern Studies, Jan. 1986). "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city. By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa." (Time's report of the battle for Haifa, May 3, 1948). Was there forceful grab of land and homes by Jews in 1948 and 1949? Yes, there was, but nowhere as dramatic as it is presented by Palestinian activists (and that doesn't even equate what happened to Jews in Arab states during the same time!). By 1939, before one-third of world Jewry was destroyed in the Holocaust, a geographic and demographic nucleus for a Jewish state was present in Mandatory Palestine. By that date, more than 500,000 Jews and almost 75% of all the land Jews would purchase by 1948 were already in Jewish hands. The Jews had built their state and created all the civic organizations necessary to run their state well before WW2. Again, by 1939 the modern state of Israel existed in all respects but for independence. The modern state of Israel was built and created SOLELY BY JEWS, over a period of almost 100 years, using Jewish capital (it is a very well known fact, acknowledged by the Arab Higher Committee). In the years immediately preceding the approval of the Mandate of Palestine by the League of Nations , over 100,000 Jews lived in the Land of Israel. Rishon Le-Zion, Zichron Ya'akov, Petach Tikvah and Rosh Pina were established prior to 1904. Tel Aviv was founded in 1909. Technion – Israel Institute of Technology, Israel’s first university, was founded in 1912, 36 years before Israel’s Declaration of Independence. The Hebrew University was founded in Jerusalem in 1918. The principle of Jewish self-help was extended to the area of defense with the creation of "HaShomer", the Watchman, an association of Jewish guards set up in 1909 to defend Jewish settlements. Most of the advances and improvements in the British mandate area were the result of Jewish capital and ingenuity. The work of the Hadassah Medical Organisation, a strong and efficient body established by American Zionists, is particularly exceptional, and, like the draining of swamps by Jews, it benefited Arabs. New hospitals were built, child-welfare centres and clinics opened, training for nurses and midwives provided. Jerusalem obtained a proper water-supply. Hundreds of miles of road were laid, facilitating omnibus services and a great increase in other motor traffic. The railway system was re-organized and renovated. In all these and in other ways a vigorous beginning had been made by I925 in providing backward Palestine with the material equipment of a modern state. The Jews took a neglected, backwater district of the Ottoman Empire and turned it into a functioning, modern state!
To sum up, the Jews had already put in place all the infrastructure and organizations needed to run a state by 1925, while their own people were massacred by Arabs. In the report of the Commission of Enquiry, under Sir Walter Shaw, who visited Palestine from October to December I929, the causes of the outbreaks of violence were clearly stated. " There can, in our view, be no doubt that racial animosity on the part of the Arabs …was the cause of the outbreak of the Arab violence.” And that, my friend, can be a "good reason" to hate, as you say in your comment above. The hate didn't start in 1949, and the bombs had a one-way direction ever since (until October last year): they were always directed from Palestine to Israel.
"You are absolutely wrong in believing that Palestinians are the most oppressed people in the world, hence they are justified in killing Jews. I don't even know where to begin to show you how wrong you are."
Uh, you'll be relieved to hear you don't have to start anywhere. Because I didn't EVEN REMOTELY suggest this!! Where on Earth did you get this from??! I've been absolutely unequivocal in my condemnation of Hamas and of the killing of innocent people ON BOTH SIDES.
It's so surreal. I talk to people about charged, emotional topics every day. I'm used to it at this point. And yet, whether it's race or trans people or now Israel, I never cease to be amazed by just how far people's reading of words can get from the words actually written down.
As for whether Israel is a country for Jewish people, how do you explain the fact that a Jew from the Bronx, or, indeed, anywhere else in the world, can go to Israel and be granted to citizenship but an Arab whose family was born in Jerusalem can't get those same rights?
Or that Israel restricts landownership and purchasing rights to Jews only in parts of Israel and the West Bank (https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians). Why do you think that there is universal international agreement that Israel is involution of international law? Do you think this is all just people being mean to Israel? Even the countries currently sending them weapons?
And come on, seriously? The bombs had a "one-way direction" since 1949?? Have you heard of Operation Protective Edge? Or Operation Cast Lead? You can support Israel. You can hate Hamas. You can question the Palestinian commitment to peace. We might have small disagreements there, but that's all fair game. But you have to be more curious than this. You have to at least try to understand the full picture. You're saying things here that are just flat out untrue. Not matters of opinion or perspective, just totally untrue.
You keep trying to paint me as a biased and closed-minded on this topic. You can tell yourself that if you like. All I'd ask you to do, if you believe that you're *not* biased and are interested in the truth, is verify some of the claims I've made here for yourself. I've provided links to some. Feel free to ask for further evidence of anything else I've claimed here.
That is rich. We complain about a country where 21% of the population belongs to an ethnicity that has been at war with Jews since immemorial times and fail to see that NO Muslim country in the world would give safe haven to Jews. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/fd/il20062006_07/il20062006_07en.pdf
There are instances of housing discrimination in Israel, like in every other country on Earth. USA is no better, as you very well know. And still, we have no complaints about Jews being actually killed if they set foot in Palestine, let's complain about Palestinians not having housing equity in Israel. Are you equally well informed about inequality in ALL other countries in the Middle East? https://carnegie-mec.org/2020/03/12/inequality-and-its-discontents-in-middle-east-pub-81266
I am curious to know why this insistence on Israel and all the ugly sides that come with living in that part of the world? Are you a scholar of the Arab-Israeli conflict? Are you enraged by the 10 million Sudanese killed or expelled by Islamic militias and who constitute, right now, the most serious humanitarian crisis in the world? Are you equally interested by the situation in Yemen? If you don't know much about them, you might ask yourself why. You might come to understand why there is enough room in the world for 57 Muslim ethno-religious countries, but not enough for a small Jewish one. You are, sadly, taking a page from the contemporary ideology at play in America and Western countries: insisting so much on "exposing" the worst in the best democracies around (there is no perfect country on Earth), that we fail to see that the alternative is even worse. Have a good day, I said I would stop and I didn't, my bad.
"USA is no better, as you very well know."
It feels like we're not going to get anywhere here. But yes, actually the situation in the USA is very different. If you were saying this 60 years ago, I'd have agreed with you, but not today. And, of course, if you *were* saying this 60 years ago, you'd find that I'd object just as strongly to the discriminatory practices in the US as I do to the ones in Israel. Using one example of terrible injustice to justify another is very strange.
And yes, to answer your question, I'm enraged by all genocides. But my country isn't funding any of those as far as I'm aware. And again, if the argument is really, "why is it okay for these other countries to commit genocide but not ours?" I think you've hit the bottom of the barrel.
And of course I'd object to Jews being killed if they entered the West Bank or Gaza. Although, of course, Jews DO enter the west Bank. And more often than not, in the case of settlers, it's the Jews doing the killing.
It's so silly to keep declaring that I don't care about Jewish lives despite my repeatedly telling you that I do. I've written several articles condemning the killing of Jews as well as criticising antisemitism. You're arguing with your imagination.
Anyway, I won't try to convince you of anything anymore. Instead, if you're interested, I'd really like you to flesh out why you're so devoted to defending or deflecting from Israel's misdeeds. You touched on it in an earlier reply when you said you strongly believe in Jews' right to have a country in the land of their ancestors, but if you're up for it, I'd really like you to flesh it out. I'm desperate to understand this in as well-rounded and good-faith a way as possible.
I won't reply or turn this into a new topic of debate, I'll give you the last word, I'd just like to hear what motivates your feelings on this topic.