"The same men who take her agency away? The same men who Weinstein women behind closed hotel doors (apologies to all the good Weinsteins, rape, pillage, plunder and steal (h/t to Pirates of the Caribbean for dat), start wars, pay women 20-25% less than men...you mean, THOSE men?"
I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I obviously haven't suggested anything like this😅
These kinds of men might be unreachable, but as I said, and as I'm sure is obvious to you, most men aren't in this category. I just think one of the key failings among these broadly decent men is that they don't empathise with women and the ways in which their lives might differ. Unfortunately, if the women speaking to them speak like Dianne, these men are far less likely to listen.
The "trans debate" is an excellent example of this. I'm frequently astounded by how many men don't understand why a woman might be uncomfortable with somebody with a penis in a private space like a changing room or a rape crisis centre, for example. "I'd be fine," the men think to themselves, "so why aren't women?" This is just one of many examples.
I think an honest, compassionate, non-confrontational dialogue between men and women would be so transformative as far as men understanding why women react in certain ways and women understanding why men act in certain ways. The men idolising Andrew Tate need this just as much as women like Dianne.
My sentiments exactly. Violence against womens ends when *we* decide, not men. But we'll need greater numbers than we've got, and the handmaids of patriarchy aren't just on the right, they're on the left, too - the women who collaborate with rape culture by not reporting, and discouraging other women from reporting ("They won't believe you"), those who argue in favour of chronic victimhood, and those who *give permission* to men to continue hurting them by not leaving them tout de suite.
Reading a book right now on OJ's & Nicole's relationship because she's a textbook case on what women do wrong and how they *allow* abuse to continue by doing whatever they have to to be with their man, as Nicole did. Not to mention all of OJ's enablers since he was 'OJ'. He's an extreme example - most batterers and murderers aren't famous people - but I get why the police get fed up sometimes with women they save one night, who they see with the guy the next day, as though nothing is wrong.
Many *feminists* resist talking about female responsibility for one's self and safety.
Female responsibility has arrived if all the hulaballoo over "sexless men" and plummeting birthrates is to believed, I think it's already happening. Women are dropping out. Young women don't aspire to marriage and motherhood anywhere near the numbers their mothers' generation did, what to speak of their grandmothers'. Older divorced and widowed women are enjoying having their space and being single again.
Agreed. Both sexes are falling short. I think the Internet Generation - what Jonathan Haidt calls iGen - have been harmed in many ways by the online world. Even before mobiles and social media, kids spent way too much time on the computer. They became unable to have a real F2F conversation with anyone. I'm not so sure not aspiring to parenthood is all that terrible, frankly, in a world with eight billion people, but let's also remember part of the reason why young people have to opt out is because they don't have the job opportunities their parents had. Hence all the angry, abusive people online (both sexes) with nothing better to do with their days.
Part of that might have had to do with the old messaging of "men want respect, women want love" generations past were fed. Because love is vague and largely indefinable this messaging allows a man to beat his partner and still come back with, "I'm sorry baby, you know I love you but I just lose my temper sometimes." And she forgives him because love is vague and indefinable. So sure, he *might* "love" her but nobody, not even she, would say he respects her.
But this is all coming to an end if all the hullaballoo over sexless men and plummeting birthrates is to believed. Young women of today are much, much, much less interested in marriage and motherhood than women of the past. So they will be less likely to put up with being long-term annoyed by a man, forget about abuse!
Why do you think "conservatives" are crying all over mainstream, alternative and social media about "sexless young people" when just a decade ago they were crying over young people having *too much* sex?
There is nothing that grates so much on my nerves as that particular, "But I luuuuuuuv him!"
I suspect it is, Chris. In Nicole Brown's case, like a lot of women of my generation, they didn't really quesiton what was going on. Nicole's mom wasn't abused, but she was controlled, he was quietly dominant. She never taught her daughter that it was never acceptable for a man to hit or otherwise assault a woman, probably because she didn't know it herself. Many women accept that "Well that's just how men are," thing. Well, look around you. Not *every* woman is getting the shit kicked out of her by the man she loves. What are those other women doing (or not) that you don't know about?
I was lucky enough to have a mother who drilled it into my head what was acceptable, and unacceptable behaviour in a man. "Nicole, the first time he hits you is his last! You leave him! You never look back!" I've never been hit by a male partner. I don't tolerate it. I don't *allow* controlling, denigrating, abusive behaviour, out of his mouth or from his fists.
I don't know what the evolutionary function this serves but it probably has something to do with keeping the family together - at least until their children are old enough to function on their own. But I'm just guessing.
I get really, really aggravated with 'feminists' who refuse to acknowledge how much victims can collaborate in their own abuse. The abuser is always 100% responsible for his behaviour but every time she goes back to him she gives him permission to hurt her again. I tell feminists....
Thankfully today's young women are much less likely to put up with even being annoyed by a man for very long, abuse is out of the question. That's what's got "conservatives" all riled up crying over "sexless men" and "plummeting birthrates".
True, but not enough yet. I'm trying to figure out how to get young women, possible future mothers, to understand they should never accept abuse in a relationship and to teach their daughters never to tolerate it. I'm also curious as to the dynamics behind the reverse - men abused by female partners. I'm pretty sure the dynamics are different since these guys can almost always defend themselves against violence, unlike the reverse, but they don't for legal reasons (or because they were taught never to hit a girl - which happened to my ex - who never hit back his physically abusive then-wife).
If all the hulaballoo over "sexless men" and plummeting birthrates is to believed, I think it's already happening. Women are dropping out. Young women don't aspire to marriage and motherhood anywhere near the numbers their mothers' generation did, what to speak of their grandmothers'. Older divorced and widowed women are enjoying having their space and being single again.
"The same men who take her agency away? The same men who Weinstein women behind closed hotel doors (apologies to all the good Weinsteins, rape, pillage, plunder and steal (h/t to Pirates of the Caribbean for dat), start wars, pay women 20-25% less than men...you mean, THOSE men?"
I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I obviously haven't suggested anything like this😅
These kinds of men might be unreachable, but as I said, and as I'm sure is obvious to you, most men aren't in this category. I just think one of the key failings among these broadly decent men is that they don't empathise with women and the ways in which their lives might differ. Unfortunately, if the women speaking to them speak like Dianne, these men are far less likely to listen.
The "trans debate" is an excellent example of this. I'm frequently astounded by how many men don't understand why a woman might be uncomfortable with somebody with a penis in a private space like a changing room or a rape crisis centre, for example. "I'd be fine," the men think to themselves, "so why aren't women?" This is just one of many examples.
I think an honest, compassionate, non-confrontational dialogue between men and women would be so transformative as far as men understanding why women react in certain ways and women understanding why men act in certain ways. The men idolising Andrew Tate need this just as much as women like Dianne.
My sentiments exactly. Violence against womens ends when *we* decide, not men. But we'll need greater numbers than we've got, and the handmaids of patriarchy aren't just on the right, they're on the left, too - the women who collaborate with rape culture by not reporting, and discouraging other women from reporting ("They won't believe you"), those who argue in favour of chronic victimhood, and those who *give permission* to men to continue hurting them by not leaving them tout de suite.
Reading a book right now on OJ's & Nicole's relationship because she's a textbook case on what women do wrong and how they *allow* abuse to continue by doing whatever they have to to be with their man, as Nicole did. Not to mention all of OJ's enablers since he was 'OJ'. He's an extreme example - most batterers and murderers aren't famous people - but I get why the police get fed up sometimes with women they save one night, who they see with the guy the next day, as though nothing is wrong.
Many *feminists* resist talking about female responsibility for one's self and safety.
Don't BE the victim!
Female responsibility has arrived if all the hulaballoo over "sexless men" and plummeting birthrates is to believed, I think it's already happening. Women are dropping out. Young women don't aspire to marriage and motherhood anywhere near the numbers their mothers' generation did, what to speak of their grandmothers'. Older divorced and widowed women are enjoying having their space and being single again.
Agreed. Both sexes are falling short. I think the Internet Generation - what Jonathan Haidt calls iGen - have been harmed in many ways by the online world. Even before mobiles and social media, kids spent way too much time on the computer. They became unable to have a real F2F conversation with anyone. I'm not so sure not aspiring to parenthood is all that terrible, frankly, in a world with eight billion people, but let's also remember part of the reason why young people have to opt out is because they don't have the job opportunities their parents had. Hence all the angry, abusive people online (both sexes) with nothing better to do with their days.
I've wondered for half a century why women return to abusers. Black eyes, broken nose, missing teeth:
"but I 𝑙𝑜𝑣𝑒 him!"
Is this another malfunctioning evolutionary trait? Like religion?
Part of that might have had to do with the old messaging of "men want respect, women want love" generations past were fed. Because love is vague and largely indefinable this messaging allows a man to beat his partner and still come back with, "I'm sorry baby, you know I love you but I just lose my temper sometimes." And she forgives him because love is vague and indefinable. So sure, he *might* "love" her but nobody, not even she, would say he respects her.
But this is all coming to an end if all the hullaballoo over sexless men and plummeting birthrates is to believed. Young women of today are much, much, much less interested in marriage and motherhood than women of the past. So they will be less likely to put up with being long-term annoyed by a man, forget about abuse!
Why do you think "conservatives" are crying all over mainstream, alternative and social media about "sexless young people" when just a decade ago they were crying over young people having *too much* sex?
There is nothing that grates so much on my nerves as that particular, "But I luuuuuuuv him!"
I suspect it is, Chris. In Nicole Brown's case, like a lot of women of my generation, they didn't really quesiton what was going on. Nicole's mom wasn't abused, but she was controlled, he was quietly dominant. She never taught her daughter that it was never acceptable for a man to hit or otherwise assault a woman, probably because she didn't know it herself. Many women accept that "Well that's just how men are," thing. Well, look around you. Not *every* woman is getting the shit kicked out of her by the man she loves. What are those other women doing (or not) that you don't know about?
I was lucky enough to have a mother who drilled it into my head what was acceptable, and unacceptable behaviour in a man. "Nicole, the first time he hits you is his last! You leave him! You never look back!" I've never been hit by a male partner. I don't tolerate it. I don't *allow* controlling, denigrating, abusive behaviour, out of his mouth or from his fists.
I don't know what the evolutionary function this serves but it probably has something to do with keeping the family together - at least until their children are old enough to function on their own. But I'm just guessing.
I get really, really aggravated with 'feminists' who refuse to acknowledge how much victims can collaborate in their own abuse. The abuser is always 100% responsible for his behaviour but every time she goes back to him she gives him permission to hurt her again. I tell feminists....
"He can't hit a woman who isn't there!"
Thankfully today's young women are much less likely to put up with even being annoyed by a man for very long, abuse is out of the question. That's what's got "conservatives" all riled up crying over "sexless men" and "plummeting birthrates".
True, but not enough yet. I'm trying to figure out how to get young women, possible future mothers, to understand they should never accept abuse in a relationship and to teach their daughters never to tolerate it. I'm also curious as to the dynamics behind the reverse - men abused by female partners. I'm pretty sure the dynamics are different since these guys can almost always defend themselves against violence, unlike the reverse, but they don't for legal reasons (or because they were taught never to hit a girl - which happened to my ex - who never hit back his physically abusive then-wife).
If all the hulaballoo over "sexless men" and plummeting birthrates is to believed, I think it's already happening. Women are dropping out. Young women don't aspire to marriage and motherhood anywhere near the numbers their mothers' generation did, what to speak of their grandmothers'. Older divorced and widowed women are enjoying having their space and being single again.