"It’s not worth your time to engage with anyone who doesn’t believe Israel has any right to exist"
I don't think the issue is a country's "right to exist." No country really has a "right" to exist. I think what a lot of people are struggling with, myself too if I'm honest, is the ostensible purpose of Israel. A "homeland" where rights and citizenship are preferentially granted by group identity/religion. The only such place in the world.
The idea of a country named Israel, located in that spot, is one thing. The idea that this is a god-given land and that Jews should have exclusive citizenship and civil rights there in perpetuity, is another. Especially given that both Arabs and Jews have long histories in that region.
Khalid and his nonsense aside, this is an aspect of Zionism that needs to be seriously and sincerely grappled with.
No, I wasn't familiar with this. But if I'm reading correctly, this is an outdated concept that is no longer practiced. Is that correct?
And no, I'm not objecting to Israel having a state religion. I don't think this is a necessity or a *right*--there's no Zoroastrian or pagan or atheist state, for example--but I have absolutely no objection to a country whose official religion is Judaism.
I'm questioning the idea that Jews, whether secular or orthodox, have a special right to citizenship and status in Israel that other people, especially Muslims, do not. This concept, as far as I'm aware, is unique to Israel. And if it's not, I'd question it in whatever other countries it applied to as well.
"My issue is that there is little-to-no discerning between Jewish and Israeli"
Agreed. This is a serious problem. Sadly, collectivism is at the root of all bigotry. In case it's not crystal clear, my criticisms of Israel are criticisms of the Israeli government's actions. Not of Jewish people, either in Israel or anywhere else in the world.
But the same is true of my criticisms of Palestine and especially of Hamas. I'm criticising those bodies, and not the Palestinians people or Muslims in general. There's a lack of differentiation here too in many cases.
Again, yes, I recognise the existence of Israel. But that isn't quite the same as recognising a "right" to exist. I'm not sure what that means in the context of a country. Is it about the name? The borders? The current government or cultural norms?
Israel *does* exist. And I have no stronger feelings about that than I have about the existence of any other country. But the question of its rights to additional territory in that region or the land theft that is taking place in what's left of Palestine is quite different. As is the question of God-given rights to a region.
As I've said many times before, there are bad, antisemitic reasons for some of the criticism Israeli faces. But there are also good, human-rights violating reasons.
"My issue is that there is little-to-no discerning between Jewish and Israeli. They are not the same thing, yet Jewish people everywhere are collectively blamed for what Israel does."
You can thank those people who shout "antisemitism!" at every criticism of the Israeli occupation. Israel is a country, and at least before 10/7 a majority of its citizens wanted a two-state solution, something the Israeli right wing (read: the settler movement) is dead against.
You can thank people like Alan Dershowitz with his Byazantine rules for criticism of Israel (shorter: you can't).
Israel is not going to stop stealing land. Palestinians are not going to just take it.
That is an intellectually disqualifying noise. “Right to exist” is logical nonsense and is used as a distraction. The land has changed hands dozens of times and any claim by Israel to what was recently Palestine is absurd, “Jews lived here thousands of years ago,” who cares?
The issue is not your absurdity, the issue is Israel’s ongoing theft of land, Israel’s wanton butchery of innocent people.
Israel should be occupied by the UN, the settlers removed from the territories.
For someone that writes, "let's Champion Objective Reality" you sure do spout a lot of BS. Jews have maintained a presence in the land throughout time. There were Jews and Arabs living there under the British mandate. During the Peel Commission and and later the British mandate Arabs and Jews were offered a partition with each having their own state. All offers then were met with rejection by the Arabs. All additional offers throughout the years have also been rejected by the Arabs. Gaza was left to its own devices in 2005, so much possibility to only end in violence.
"It’s not worth your time to engage with anyone who doesn’t believe Israel has any right to exist"
I don't think the issue is a country's "right to exist." No country really has a "right" to exist. I think what a lot of people are struggling with, myself too if I'm honest, is the ostensible purpose of Israel. A "homeland" where rights and citizenship are preferentially granted by group identity/religion. The only such place in the world.
The idea of a country named Israel, located in that spot, is one thing. The idea that this is a god-given land and that Jews should have exclusive citizenship and civil rights there in perpetuity, is another. Especially given that both Arabs and Jews have long histories in that region.
Khalid and his nonsense aside, this is an aspect of Zionism that needs to be seriously and sincerely grappled with.
"Are you familiar with the term dhimmi/dhimmism?"
No, I wasn't familiar with this. But if I'm reading correctly, this is an outdated concept that is no longer practiced. Is that correct?
And no, I'm not objecting to Israel having a state religion. I don't think this is a necessity or a *right*--there's no Zoroastrian or pagan or atheist state, for example--but I have absolutely no objection to a country whose official religion is Judaism.
I'm questioning the idea that Jews, whether secular or orthodox, have a special right to citizenship and status in Israel that other people, especially Muslims, do not. This concept, as far as I'm aware, is unique to Israel. And if it's not, I'd question it in whatever other countries it applied to as well.
"Why does virtually every Muslim nation not recognize Israel"
Maybe it has something to do with that "Arabs are filthy animals" rhetoric.
"My issue is that there is little-to-no discerning between Jewish and Israeli"
Agreed. This is a serious problem. Sadly, collectivism is at the root of all bigotry. In case it's not crystal clear, my criticisms of Israel are criticisms of the Israeli government's actions. Not of Jewish people, either in Israel or anywhere else in the world.
But the same is true of my criticisms of Palestine and especially of Hamas. I'm criticising those bodies, and not the Palestinians people or Muslims in general. There's a lack of differentiation here too in many cases.
Again, yes, I recognise the existence of Israel. But that isn't quite the same as recognising a "right" to exist. I'm not sure what that means in the context of a country. Is it about the name? The borders? The current government or cultural norms?
Israel *does* exist. And I have no stronger feelings about that than I have about the existence of any other country. But the question of its rights to additional territory in that region or the land theft that is taking place in what's left of Palestine is quite different. As is the question of God-given rights to a region.
As I've said many times before, there are bad, antisemitic reasons for some of the criticism Israeli faces. But there are also good, human-rights violating reasons.
"My issue is that there is little-to-no discerning between Jewish and Israeli. They are not the same thing, yet Jewish people everywhere are collectively blamed for what Israel does."
You can thank those people who shout "antisemitism!" at every criticism of the Israeli occupation. Israel is a country, and at least before 10/7 a majority of its citizens wanted a two-state solution, something the Israeli right wing (read: the settler movement) is dead against.
You can thank people like Alan Dershowitz with his Byazantine rules for criticism of Israel (shorter: you can't).
Israel is not going to stop stealing land. Palestinians are not going to just take it.
That is an intellectually disqualifying noise. “Right to exist” is logical nonsense and is used as a distraction. The land has changed hands dozens of times and any claim by Israel to what was recently Palestine is absurd, “Jews lived here thousands of years ago,” who cares?
The issue is not your absurdity, the issue is Israel’s ongoing theft of land, Israel’s wanton butchery of innocent people.
Israel should be occupied by the UN, the settlers removed from the territories.
For someone that writes, "let's Champion Objective Reality" you sure do spout a lot of BS. Jews have maintained a presence in the land throughout time. There were Jews and Arabs living there under the British mandate. During the Peel Commission and and later the British mandate Arabs and Jews were offered a partition with each having their own state. All offers then were met with rejection by the Arabs. All additional offers throughout the years have also been rejected by the Arabs. Gaza was left to its own devices in 2005, so much possibility to only end in violence.
Absurd. If Mexico took 2/3 of Texas and offered the remainder, would that be regarded as a good deal?
Yes there were Jews in Palestine and they got along with Arabs.
Until 1948.
Yeah, Gaza was left to its own devices. Blockaded and isolated. And it was Netanyahu who put Hamas in charge of it.