I'm old enough (septuagenarian) to have personal memory of "Whites Only", "Colored in back" and interracial marriage being illegal. I've seen tremendous change in my lifetime. Those who deny it are disingenuous or willfully ignorant.
America is a ๐จ๐ฎ๐จ๐ฉ๐๐ข ๐ค๐ ๐ก๐๐ฌ๐จ and there is nothing that I can do by law that a black person cannโฆ
I'm old enough (septuagenarian) to have personal memory of "Whites Only", "Colored in back" and interracial marriage being illegal. I've seen tremendous change in my lifetime. Those who deny it are disingenuous or willfully ignorant.
America is a ๐จ๐ฎ๐จ๐ฉ๐๐ข ๐ค๐ ๐ก๐๐ฌ๐จ and there is nothing that I can do by law that a black person cannot, so I sometimes quibble about "systemic racism." The system has been corrected, but at the same time some level of racial bias persists to a degree that it could be considered to be ubiquitous. People do find ways to get around the system and exercise discriminatory practices. ๐ฐ๐'๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐.
When all is said and done, white people would overwhelmingly choose to stay white if a magic genie in a bottle offered them the opportunity to be black. I call bullshit on anyone denying that.
Man, I'm sorry, I know you'd rather I didn't "jump in" to your other conversations. But it's rare that I see somebody be so wrong with such utter confidence. It feels as if you've spent zero time talking to black people or thinking about what it's like to be black beyond a few silly stereotypes, but nonetheless formed all these firm opinions on the topic.
Yes, of course some black people wish they were white. Or, to least, have wished it when they were younger and figuring themselves out. Many black people have even written about it (though obviously, I think many others keep those thoughts to themselves). Here are a few examples.
I suspect this is true of any marginalised group. I'm sure some gay people wish they were straight just because it would make certain aspects of life easier. Many pubescent teenage girls wish they were boys, again, because life is easier in many ways. The sharp rise in trans and non binary identifying females is evidence of this.
Being a straight, white, man, even with the grief you'll occasionally get if you spend too much time on Twitter or Medium, is still the easiest configuration of traits to have. This isn't some kind of accusation. You're not a bad person because of this. I have two of those three myself. And of course, there are a bunch of other traits like being intelligent or good-looking or having a good family that factor in as well.
But yeah, seriously, I find it very difficult to believe you've ever had a conversation with a black person about race with any intention other than to explain why you're right about racism and they're wrong. And I'm not saying that black people have it all correct because they're black. But they have an experience that you lack. So at least give them an honest listen. And give what they say some honest thought.
"Hey, heโs probably been to LA and NYC. Thats like all of America"
๐I know what it's like to be black in America because I've spent a lot of time living in America. Most of my extended family is in America. And this, for the record, is an ad hominem. An ad hominem based on no actual knowledge of me or my life to boot. The only reason you know who I am is because I write about race, often about race in America, and I do so accurately enough that I've got quite a large audience.
I have to find links on the internet for you because how else am I supposed to demonstrate anything to you? Certainly you're not going to take my word for it. And clearly you've not spoken to any black people about it yourself. I didn't say that they spoke for everybody. That, as we're talking debate fallacies, is a straw man. You said that the number was zero percent. It's not.
But yes, you've reduced the entire black experience in America to college diversity admissions, rap music, and sagging pants. In the first of these areas, yes, there are some advantages to being black. But if this represents being black in America to you, I'm not sure I'll ever get through to you.
Stop treating this like a fight. Accept the possibility that you might be missing something here. Recognise that even if you are, nothing bad is going to happen. In fact, you'll come away with a broader understanding if you allow yourself to.
Your case? I'm not trying to debate with you. I think you are a troll so that would be an exercise in futility. I just remarked about something I've observed over the years.
It was an opinion ("I think"); I could be wrong. All opinions could be wrong. So far, I'm just observing how you came onto Steve's substack and said the stuff you have said to him thay seem a bit troll-like. Just my impression.
"youโre intellectually dishonest, have no curiosity, know nothing, and are racistโ"
Why lie? I have said absolutely none of this. In fact, you kicked off our conversation with the charming, "There are so many errors here it is hard to keep up..."
The closest is that I said it "feels as if you're being wilfully dishonest." I'm explaining how what you're saying seems to me. As Dave pints out above, there's a difference between an option and an attack. And this was in response to you talking as if freed blacks, during slavery, were treated with any kind of dignity because "the law code specifically addressed blacks."
I haven't played wounded at all. In fact, I've largely ignored your many insults and jabs. You, on the other hand, keep trying to twist my words into personal attacks when they haven't been. But I'm not going to continue to ignore obvious bad faith and lies.
If this is what you call setting the table for civil discussion then I'll stop wasting my time.
Can you not understand how challenging Steve's thought based upon your assumption of his nationality, where he lives and if he has real experience as a black man in America doesn't sound like an invitation to civil discussion? I didn't start with that stuff either.
I'm certainly willing to start over with you. I don't know you or your life experience, it doesn't seem to match up to mine, so we have different views on some things, but I'm not known to walk in lockstep with people and that's OK.
Perhaps too abstract since there is no genie to do the magic. What do you think the percentage of people (all of us, not restricted to one ethnicity) are who would say that they think it easier to be white in America? Notice that I said easier, not easy. There are poor white people and I see them sleeping homeless in the park in the morning when I go out for a walk, and I have friends in my circle who are black with more wealth and success than me. There is obviously a broad spectrum. The question again, what do you think the percentage of people are who would say that they think it easier to be white in America?
I'm old enough (septuagenarian) to have personal memory of "Whites Only", "Colored in back" and interracial marriage being illegal. I've seen tremendous change in my lifetime. Those who deny it are disingenuous or willfully ignorant.
America is a ๐จ๐ฎ๐จ๐ฉ๐๐ข ๐ค๐ ๐ก๐๐ฌ๐จ and there is nothing that I can do by law that a black person cannot, so I sometimes quibble about "systemic racism." The system has been corrected, but at the same time some level of racial bias persists to a degree that it could be considered to be ubiquitous. People do find ways to get around the system and exercise discriminatory practices. ๐ฐ๐'๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐.
When all is said and done, white people would overwhelmingly choose to stay white if a magic genie in a bottle offered them the opportunity to be black. I call bullshit on anyone denying that.
Man, I'm sorry, I know you'd rather I didn't "jump in" to your other conversations. But it's rare that I see somebody be so wrong with such utter confidence. It feels as if you've spent zero time talking to black people or thinking about what it's like to be black beyond a few silly stereotypes, but nonetheless formed all these firm opinions on the topic.
Yes, of course some black people wish they were white. Or, to least, have wished it when they were younger and figuring themselves out. Many black people have even written about it (though obviously, I think many others keep those thoughts to themselves). Here are a few examples.
http://shalominthecity.com/2013/10/25/sometimes-i-wish-i-were-white/
https://julianayaz.medium.com/sometimes-i-wish-i-was-white-704c2d7c5055
https://secure.wesleyan.org/6597/shes-4-years-old-and-wishes-she-was-white
https://theracecardproject.com/wish-white/
https://www.npr.org/sections/bryantpark/2007/11/sometimes_i_wish_i_was_white_y.html
I suspect this is true of any marginalised group. I'm sure some gay people wish they were straight just because it would make certain aspects of life easier. Many pubescent teenage girls wish they were boys, again, because life is easier in many ways. The sharp rise in trans and non binary identifying females is evidence of this.
Being a straight, white, man, even with the grief you'll occasionally get if you spend too much time on Twitter or Medium, is still the easiest configuration of traits to have. This isn't some kind of accusation. You're not a bad person because of this. I have two of those three myself. And of course, there are a bunch of other traits like being intelligent or good-looking or having a good family that factor in as well.
But yeah, seriously, I find it very difficult to believe you've ever had a conversation with a black person about race with any intention other than to explain why you're right about racism and they're wrong. And I'm not saying that black people have it all correct because they're black. But they have an experience that you lack. So at least give them an honest listen. And give what they say some honest thought.
"Hey, heโs probably been to LA and NYC. Thats like all of America"
๐I know what it's like to be black in America because I've spent a lot of time living in America. Most of my extended family is in America. And this, for the record, is an ad hominem. An ad hominem based on no actual knowledge of me or my life to boot. The only reason you know who I am is because I write about race, often about race in America, and I do so accurately enough that I've got quite a large audience.
I have to find links on the internet for you because how else am I supposed to demonstrate anything to you? Certainly you're not going to take my word for it. And clearly you've not spoken to any black people about it yourself. I didn't say that they spoke for everybody. That, as we're talking debate fallacies, is a straw man. You said that the number was zero percent. It's not.
But yes, you've reduced the entire black experience in America to college diversity admissions, rap music, and sagging pants. In the first of these areas, yes, there are some advantages to being black. But if this represents being black in America to you, I'm not sure I'll ever get through to you.
Stop treating this like a fight. Accept the possibility that you might be missing something here. Recognise that even if you are, nothing bad is going to happen. In fact, you'll come away with a broader understanding if you allow yourself to.
When someone refers to "black people" as "blacks", it's a tell. I'm not talking political correctness, just something I've noticed over the years.
โWhen someone refers to "black people" as "blacks"โ
100%.
I never felt that to be racist but then I am so far off the grid that I can't keep up.
Your case? I'm not trying to debate with you. I think you are a troll so that would be an exercise in futility. I just remarked about something I've observed over the years.
No, it does not. It is an accurate appraisal of your behavior.
It was an opinion ("I think"); I could be wrong. All opinions could be wrong. So far, I'm just observing how you came onto Steve's substack and said the stuff you have said to him thay seem a bit troll-like. Just my impression.
"youโre intellectually dishonest, have no curiosity, know nothing, and are racistโ"
Why lie? I have said absolutely none of this. In fact, you kicked off our conversation with the charming, "There are so many errors here it is hard to keep up..."
The closest is that I said it "feels as if you're being wilfully dishonest." I'm explaining how what you're saying seems to me. As Dave pints out above, there's a difference between an option and an attack. And this was in response to you talking as if freed blacks, during slavery, were treated with any kind of dignity because "the law code specifically addressed blacks."
I haven't played wounded at all. In fact, I've largely ignored your many insults and jabs. You, on the other hand, keep trying to twist my words into personal attacks when they haven't been. But I'm not going to continue to ignore obvious bad faith and lies.
If this is what you call setting the table for civil discussion then I'll stop wasting my time.
I'll have to Google braver angels.
Can you not understand how challenging Steve's thought based upon your assumption of his nationality, where he lives and if he has real experience as a black man in America doesn't sound like an invitation to civil discussion? I didn't start with that stuff either.
I'm certainly willing to start over with you. I don't know you or your life experience, it doesn't seem to match up to mine, so we have different views on some things, but I'm not known to walk in lockstep with people and that's OK.
Perhaps too abstract since there is no genie to do the magic. What do you think the percentage of people (all of us, not restricted to one ethnicity) are who would say that they think it easier to be white in America? Notice that I said easier, not easy. There are poor white people and I see them sleeping homeless in the park in the morning when I go out for a walk, and I have friends in my circle who are black with more wealth and success than me. There is obviously a broad spectrum. The question again, what do you think the percentage of people are who would say that they think it easier to be white in America?