Now and then, a story comes along which perfectly illustrates how badly racial discourse has lost its way. The Rittenhouse trial was one such story. Somehow, the shooting of three white men by a white boy became an argument about racism. The media was in such a hurry to do some race-baiting, that they made numerous inaccurate reports that the men Rittenhouse shot were black. And Rittenhouse’s acquittal was widely portrayed as a victory for white supremacy, even though there was widespread video evidence of him acting in self-defence.
Holy shit what a clusterfuck. A lot of modern wokeness seems to use language eerily similar to "race traitor" from the far-right when dealing with "BIPOC" (another stupid term) that don't sign on to every tenet. I've literally been called a "collabrator" because I've spoken up against wasting money on some useless DEI initiative. I have zero doubt that in a different era, the wokes would be the Girolamo Savanarolas of their towns.
“ I have zero doubt that in a different era, the wokes would be the Girolamo Savanarolas of their towns”
Never heard of Savanarola before, but from my few minutes of googling 😁, the woke strike me as much worse.
They’d be the people fabricating evidence of witchcraft so they could torture a woman they didn’t like to death, or the informants reporting their neighbours to the Nazis. I really do loathe these people.
This exchange precisely illustrates the key points in this anti-racism discussion. Firstly, Drav’s short recount of history has a strong kernel of truth. Reflective, liberal Westerners’ first impulse is to acknowledge the history of European domination and be open to addressing residual institutional race and class privilege. So, the rhetoric of anti-racism has space to grow into this moral panic.
The second point goes to Steve QJ’s strength, which is, ‘yeah, so everyone alive today is alive because their ancestors dominated and killed others, so, what is your plan to address that today?’ Drav’s answer is a very honest “we overthrow the West...a revolution is coming.” That is the nut of it. There is a segment of the progressive left that actually wants to overthrow current governing regimes. Use this rhetoric of revolutionary violence enough and people will start taking it seriously.
Lastly, and saddest, is the overtly racist stance toward “essentially the white race” and their “anti-human monoculture.” This belief that white people are uniquely bad is simply the psychological dehumanizing of the other tribe that has been the basis of genocidal wars forever. This is why many progressives discount the actual progress we’ve made against racism; they are more focused on hating than on progress in the current social structure.
“ Drav’s answer is a very honest “we overthrow the West...a revolution is coming.” That is the nut of it. There is a segment of the progressive left that actually wants to overthrow current governing regimes”
The thing is, while I understand why you say this, I don’t think this is honest at all. People like Drav don’t want to “overthrow the west”.
They say things like this a) because they think it makes them sound tough and virtuous without the fear that they’ll ever have to back up their words. And b) because what they mean by “the west” is “everybody who’s done better for themselves in life than me”. Come for *their* money or *their* comfort and see how quickly they change their tune.
The guise of caring about poverty or oppression is simply a way to justify their spite. Note, his racism isn’t limited to white people, anybody who disagrees with him becomes an acceptable target for his true character.
As I said, this is one of the worst aspects of “wokeness”. It allows awful human beings to believe that they’re the “good guys”.
I feel like this conversation could be put into a time capsule for use by future historians on this era. One sees why John McWhorter's analogy of this "anti-racism" scheme to a religion is so apt. It leads to the same impassioned incoherence. Predictably enough (I've had this too), it ends up with the interlocutor running out of reasons and hurling racialized slurs. Sad part is that this is the same cohort that claims to care So Much About People Of Color. Part of me has come to feel these are all "luxury beliefs" and in a better world the energies would be directed toward really helping people in credible ways.
"Predictably enough (I've had this too), it ends up with the interlocutor running out of reasons and hurling racialized slurs. Sad part is that this is the same cohort that claims to care So Much About People Of Color."
Yup. As I said, I've had all kinds of people commenting on my articles. Some were exactly the kind of `Trump supporting conservative that Drav would describe as racist before even speaking to them. Yet not once have any of them, even though we often disagree, said anything remotely racist. Yet it's happened numerous times with these people who claim to care so much about racism and social justice.
...And there was so much more you could have refuted. I'm surprised you didn't note one of the most important points I usually bring up with the SLAVERY IS THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED IN AMERICA AND IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES US! set - that Africa is once again the global hub of slavery and in some countries it's never gone away. Also, pre-colonial Africa may have been great for men, but perhaps not so for women, especially those forced to undergo female genital mutilation - believed to have been invented *by* Africans (probably in Egypt, but the origins are murky, so far back in time has it been since Africans, and others, butchered their baby girls' genitals. (I'm against male circumcision as well).
As for the notion that Africa was doing 'just fine' before us Evil White Folks showed up, indigenous peoples everywhere were violent ratbastards to each other, even as some had some fairly advanced civilizations. I say seriously, honestly, and unironically: Every race subjugated by white people would have done the same if *they* had has the opportunity to be the dominant race. Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs & Steel" does a great job explaining how it wasn't because of white superiority, but more animals, agricultural, and mineral resources for those living in the Fertile Crescent. People suck universally.
“ I'm surprised you didn't note one of the most important points I usually bring up with the SLAVERY IS THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED IN AMERICA AND IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES US!”
Well, unusually enough for a member of the Wokerati, he didn’t actually mention slavery. His concern seems to be much more to do with the financial oppression of various nations across the world. Which, don’t get me wrong, is a fair point.
The problem is that “overthrowing the west” is just asinine as a solution to that oppression.
And I don’t necessarily agree that “every race would have done what white people did”, but mainly because I think your framing is wrong. The Atlantic slave trade or genocide of Native Americans and the stealing of their land isn’t what “white people” did, it’s what Americans and Europeans of that time did.
I have no doubt that there are many other cultures who wouldn’t have done the same thing. And, in WWII say, “white people” fought against other “white people” as they tried to genocide another group of (mostly) “white people”. People of colour (the Japanese) we’re on the same side as the Nazis.
I’m constantly at pains to de-racialise these issues. Race, in addition to not being a real thing, is an almost uniquely unhelpful lens through which to view human behaviour.
Holy shit what a clusterfuck. A lot of modern wokeness seems to use language eerily similar to "race traitor" from the far-right when dealing with "BIPOC" (another stupid term) that don't sign on to every tenet. I've literally been called a "collabrator" because I've spoken up against wasting money on some useless DEI initiative. I have zero doubt that in a different era, the wokes would be the Girolamo Savanarolas of their towns.
“ I have zero doubt that in a different era, the wokes would be the Girolamo Savanarolas of their towns”
Never heard of Savanarola before, but from my few minutes of googling 😁, the woke strike me as much worse.
They’d be the people fabricating evidence of witchcraft so they could torture a woman they didn’t like to death, or the informants reporting their neighbours to the Nazis. I really do loathe these people.
This exchange precisely illustrates the key points in this anti-racism discussion. Firstly, Drav’s short recount of history has a strong kernel of truth. Reflective, liberal Westerners’ first impulse is to acknowledge the history of European domination and be open to addressing residual institutional race and class privilege. So, the rhetoric of anti-racism has space to grow into this moral panic.
The second point goes to Steve QJ’s strength, which is, ‘yeah, so everyone alive today is alive because their ancestors dominated and killed others, so, what is your plan to address that today?’ Drav’s answer is a very honest “we overthrow the West...a revolution is coming.” That is the nut of it. There is a segment of the progressive left that actually wants to overthrow current governing regimes. Use this rhetoric of revolutionary violence enough and people will start taking it seriously.
Lastly, and saddest, is the overtly racist stance toward “essentially the white race” and their “anti-human monoculture.” This belief that white people are uniquely bad is simply the psychological dehumanizing of the other tribe that has been the basis of genocidal wars forever. This is why many progressives discount the actual progress we’ve made against racism; they are more focused on hating than on progress in the current social structure.
“ Drav’s answer is a very honest “we overthrow the West...a revolution is coming.” That is the nut of it. There is a segment of the progressive left that actually wants to overthrow current governing regimes”
The thing is, while I understand why you say this, I don’t think this is honest at all. People like Drav don’t want to “overthrow the west”.
They say things like this a) because they think it makes them sound tough and virtuous without the fear that they’ll ever have to back up their words. And b) because what they mean by “the west” is “everybody who’s done better for themselves in life than me”. Come for *their* money or *their* comfort and see how quickly they change their tune.
The guise of caring about poverty or oppression is simply a way to justify their spite. Note, his racism isn’t limited to white people, anybody who disagrees with him becomes an acceptable target for his true character.
As I said, this is one of the worst aspects of “wokeness”. It allows awful human beings to believe that they’re the “good guys”.
I feel like this conversation could be put into a time capsule for use by future historians on this era. One sees why John McWhorter's analogy of this "anti-racism" scheme to a religion is so apt. It leads to the same impassioned incoherence. Predictably enough (I've had this too), it ends up with the interlocutor running out of reasons and hurling racialized slurs. Sad part is that this is the same cohort that claims to care So Much About People Of Color. Part of me has come to feel these are all "luxury beliefs" and in a better world the energies would be directed toward really helping people in credible ways.
"Predictably enough (I've had this too), it ends up with the interlocutor running out of reasons and hurling racialized slurs. Sad part is that this is the same cohort that claims to care So Much About People Of Color."
Yup. As I said, I've had all kinds of people commenting on my articles. Some were exactly the kind of `Trump supporting conservative that Drav would describe as racist before even speaking to them. Yet not once have any of them, even though we often disagree, said anything remotely racist. Yet it's happened numerous times with these people who claim to care so much about racism and social justice.
I love you. You know that, right?
😁 Hey there! Sorry, somehow I missed this comment. Right back at ya😉
...And there was so much more you could have refuted. I'm surprised you didn't note one of the most important points I usually bring up with the SLAVERY IS THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED IN AMERICA AND IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES US! set - that Africa is once again the global hub of slavery and in some countries it's never gone away. Also, pre-colonial Africa may have been great for men, but perhaps not so for women, especially those forced to undergo female genital mutilation - believed to have been invented *by* Africans (probably in Egypt, but the origins are murky, so far back in time has it been since Africans, and others, butchered their baby girls' genitals. (I'm against male circumcision as well).
As for the notion that Africa was doing 'just fine' before us Evil White Folks showed up, indigenous peoples everywhere were violent ratbastards to each other, even as some had some fairly advanced civilizations. I say seriously, honestly, and unironically: Every race subjugated by white people would have done the same if *they* had has the opportunity to be the dominant race. Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs & Steel" does a great job explaining how it wasn't because of white superiority, but more animals, agricultural, and mineral resources for those living in the Fertile Crescent. People suck universally.
“ I'm surprised you didn't note one of the most important points I usually bring up with the SLAVERY IS THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED IN AMERICA AND IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES US!”
Well, unusually enough for a member of the Wokerati, he didn’t actually mention slavery. His concern seems to be much more to do with the financial oppression of various nations across the world. Which, don’t get me wrong, is a fair point.
The problem is that “overthrowing the west” is just asinine as a solution to that oppression.
And I don’t necessarily agree that “every race would have done what white people did”, but mainly because I think your framing is wrong. The Atlantic slave trade or genocide of Native Americans and the stealing of their land isn’t what “white people” did, it’s what Americans and Europeans of that time did.
I have no doubt that there are many other cultures who wouldn’t have done the same thing. And, in WWII say, “white people” fought against other “white people” as they tried to genocide another group of (mostly) “white people”. People of colour (the Japanese) we’re on the same side as the Nazis.
I’m constantly at pains to de-racialise these issues. Race, in addition to not being a real thing, is an almost uniquely unhelpful lens through which to view human behaviour.