Hi
Interesting discussion. I’m following you because you don’t often appear to follow many others with insults etc. So, it was fascinating to see how ‘worked up’ you got over the inability of someone to see ( and clearly respond to) the simple dilemma that you posed. That is that whilst many trans ( perhaps all) will never pose a threat-…
Interesting discussion. I’m following you because you don’t often appear to follow many others with insults etc. So, it was fascinating to see how ‘worked up’ you got over the inability of someone to see ( and clearly respond to) the simple dilemma that you posed. That is that whilst many trans ( perhaps all) will never pose a threat- there are still two unresolved issues. One is the sensibility and sensitivity of penis’s being displayed in female spaces. And the second is that self declaration of gender opens up the possibility of an abuse by men ( not true trans folk who we hopefully all support in terms of equality etc) in gaining access to women’s spaces.
But the biggest debate that I have never seen aired relates to a comment you made about ‘feeling’ male or otherwise. Like you, I have no idea what it feels like to be male. I’ve spoken to most of the people I know and male or female they don’t have a clue. Or if they do they cannot express it. Please could someone out there tell me what one ‘feels’ as regards their gender.
Please could any trans person tell me why their gender ‘feels’ wrong and how on Earth they no with certainty that ‘their’ feelings correspond to the (whole population) of the opposite sex. I have read extensively but cannot find an answer to this seemingly central issue. What does it feel like to be a man or a woman? Is the problem that once someone says how that works others will contradict them and a massive argument ensure? Both of these are genuine questions.
"So, it was fascinating to see how ‘worked up’ you got over the inability of someone to see ( and clearly respond to) the simple dilemma that you posed."
😅 Yeah, it was fascinating to watch in myself! This conversation took place over the course of a few days. And it was one of the few that I couldn't get out of my head once I'd stepped away from the computer. I was talking to my friends about it. Reading and re-reading his replies wondering if I was the one missing something. It was a trip!
As I've said, I've had so many conversations on so many topics. Most of them about race. I've spoken to plenty of outright racists over the years, and I've never found it so difficult to separate my dislike for somebody's views from my dislike for the person. I think it was just the dishonesty and stupidity of his arguments, coupled with his utter disdain for the boundaries and safety of women and girls, that created the perfect storm.
As for what it feels like to be a man or a woman, I've also asked many of my friends. None of them could answer either, because the concept is logically incoherent at best and regressive at worst. It's fascinating to hear the same people talking about getting rid of gender also talking about how girls how like "boy's toys" or boys who are sensitive must literally be the opposite gender.
That said, as I wrote in the conversation, I don't think trans people are faking. Feelings simply *are* logically incoherent sometimes. I compare it to being in love. How do you know you've been in love? Could you describe it to somebody else? Do you think if you asked somebody to define it their definition would map perfectly onto yours? Yet I'm guessing you're certain that you've been in love at some point.
I think some trans people create an image of manhood or womanhood in their minds and they project onto it. For others it's about being perceived in a certain way (or not having to live up to the expectations of their gender). Others simply feel intense discomfort with their secondary sex characteristics and want to change them. I'm sure for others it's something else. Arguably the notion that there is such a thing as a "feeling" that accompanies gender is a feature of being trans. I've never met somebody who *isnt* trans who experienced the same feeling.
The fundamental problem is that you're not allowed to admit that gender dysphoria is a mental condition anymore. But of course it is. How else do you describe a condition where your internal sense of yourself doesn't match external reality? How else do you describe a condition that if left untreated leads to higher incidence of suicide and self harm? There needn't be shame in admitting that it's a condition. Just as we don't shame people for having schizophrenia, say. The question is simply how do we best help people with dysphoria? I absolutely believe we should help them (and everybody) as much as possible. We just need to figure out how to do so without opening women up to harm.
Hey Derek, I don't know if you've ever read the Lisa Littman paper on ROGD (Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria) but it was ridiculously, needlessly controversial. She identified what she thinks is behind a lot of the alleged 'gender dysphoria' of children and teenagers, both of whom, if you keep up on the news of such, are being subjected to life-altering surgeries and harmful pre-puberty hormone blockers because they 'feel like' they're born into the wrong body. The weird thing is is it historically started in early childhood, yet ROGD seems to start in adolescence, coinciding, she notes, with the rise of social media. It's worth a read, or at least a skim, but it identifies other reasons for feeling 'gender dysphoric' other than genuinely feeling like one should have been born a wo/man. Including some fairly fucked up reasons like 'not wanting to live in a misogynist society' (girls) and 'not wanting to live in a homophobic society (gay girls/boys).
For more detail on 'autogynephilic' transwomen, check out Dr. Raymond Blanchard's "The Man Who Would Be Queen", about transgenders ('transsexuals' as they were still called back in 2003 or '04 when it was published) for a more mainstream, somewhat less academic take than the Littman paper (but still, Littman isn't ridiculously dry and full). Blanchard pioneered research into gender dysphoria and the people who changed, several years before it became 'cool'. He identified two kinds: Autogynephilic (AGP) transwomen who derived sexual pleasure from dressign as, acting as, or fantasizing about being a woman, and homosexual transgenders, who thought life would be easier as a woman, and they'd be more attractive to men. (The ugly reality: Being a transgender woman, with or without a penis, makes you one of the least desired romantic partners by everyone).
My *theory* is that the AGP transwomen (and cross-dressing supporters - we called them 'cross-dressers' back in the day or 'transvestites', don't use either of those words publicly unless you're tired of possessing your hide) are the ones toting all the traditional cis-het misogynist drama to the protests and Twitter flamings. This is my big interest in the trans craze/movement: What's up with all the misogynists in dresses and the Regressive Left feminists who love them?
Blanchard didn't focus on transmen in his book. My issue with his book is that he never really addressed people who went transgender *because they really felt born into the wrong body*. These are the kids who present as being girly, feminine or gay, who say they want to be girls or women, *and don't outgrow it*. I believe those folk exist, and I've known a few, but I think a lot of people, especially young people, are doing it now because it's 'cool', and also because they're being led astray by what should be responsible grownups around them to think that changing gender will solve all their problems.
Eye-opening stuff. I've also been listening to panels and podcasts about it. I want to be supportive of the folks who really do just want to live their lives without a lot of drama, versus the ones who act rather a lot like Joe Rogan in lipstick and a dress.
(Sorry...disturbing mental image alert? :) )
BTW, the trans community hates the Blanchard book for many reasons, mostly because it fails to be woke enough for 2022. It's not a perfect book, and neither is the Littman paper, but they've got plenty to recommend and think about. Meanwhile, I pursue my intellectual interest in AGP transwomen in order to answer the transmisogyny issue.
First I would like to thank you for a comprehensive note you have sent in reply.
There are two issues for me. One is related to the psychology of feeling or not feeling aligned with your sex (to shorthand that discussion for now). Of course it goes without saying that any psychological distress a person is feeling needs recognition and some sympathy. But obviously various people (medical, psychiatric or those from a sociological background) may then argue about what the best remedy for relieving that distress may be. I’m sure it’s different for many people that share similar distress about their sexuality. Having worked in mental health for many years it became obvious that whereas people might present in similar ways, it was only after careful analysis with that particular individual that you could understand that problem in any context. You do highlight some of the complexity in the subject, but complexity I fear that at least some people don’t seem to want to acknowledge.
Anyway thats a hugely complex set of issues and thanks for the references (as there is always more to learn.)
But I’m equally (perhaps more) interested in the dynamics of those that involve themselves in the vitriolic arguments that ensue over this particular issue.
The trans voices (I have sought out-are some of the quieter voices) and they seem to be more moderate and sane and acknowledge lots of the potential conflicts of interest between various groups of people involved (women’s rights versus trans rights etc). But there certainly are some voices that will not even allow for any discussion to take place at all. Which really makes me think there is something else going on for those individuals other than any anger about the issue they profess to be angry about. But maybe I’m wrong on that.
But I come back to a point I have made before to many other folk.
(Actually it’s a set of questions.)
Is there anyone out there (maybe I will read something in the links kindly sent) that can tell me ( a 67 year old man that should know by now) what it ‘feels like’ to be a man?
Or a woman that can tell me what it feels like to be a woman?
Or what it feels like not to ‘feel like’ the sex assigned at birth?
If any of those questions appears insulting to anyone reading I apologise beforehand. But nobody I have ever spoken to (Male or Female) has ever given me the answer to any of those questions. (up till now anyway.)
Thanks again for the links I will certainly take a look.
My interest in the trans movement is because I have a dog in this fight: I'm a natal woman who focuses and writes about women and others taking back their power, and I'm trying to figure out where the misogyny is coming from with the loudmouth extremely male 'transwomen' activists.
I got kicked off the Medium platform last fall because i criticized the trans community too much, and that is verboten to the far left mindset that seems to have infected the editorial staff there. I was also at the time in an argument with one of the Regressive Left feminists who writes reams on 'patriarchy' and 'misogyny' yet argued to me that if a man says he's a woman he's a woman, and who didn't want to acknowledge the extreme misogyny in some of these TRAs (trans-rights activists, the loudest of all being almost exclusively 'transwomen').
Where TRA misogyny comes from seems to be a subject most trans movement supporters aren't much interested in, most mystifyingly of all from 'feminists'.
As for your questions, I have no idea. I don't think anyone really thinks about that question except those who truly were born that way, a small percentage, and those who've been encouraged to think that way after trans became fashionable.
Hi
Interesting discussion. I’m following you because you don’t often appear to follow many others with insults etc. So, it was fascinating to see how ‘worked up’ you got over the inability of someone to see ( and clearly respond to) the simple dilemma that you posed. That is that whilst many trans ( perhaps all) will never pose a threat- there are still two unresolved issues. One is the sensibility and sensitivity of penis’s being displayed in female spaces. And the second is that self declaration of gender opens up the possibility of an abuse by men ( not true trans folk who we hopefully all support in terms of equality etc) in gaining access to women’s spaces.
But the biggest debate that I have never seen aired relates to a comment you made about ‘feeling’ male or otherwise. Like you, I have no idea what it feels like to be male. I’ve spoken to most of the people I know and male or female they don’t have a clue. Or if they do they cannot express it. Please could someone out there tell me what one ‘feels’ as regards their gender.
Please could any trans person tell me why their gender ‘feels’ wrong and how on Earth they no with certainty that ‘their’ feelings correspond to the (whole population) of the opposite sex. I have read extensively but cannot find an answer to this seemingly central issue. What does it feel like to be a man or a woman? Is the problem that once someone says how that works others will contradict them and a massive argument ensure? Both of these are genuine questions.
"So, it was fascinating to see how ‘worked up’ you got over the inability of someone to see ( and clearly respond to) the simple dilemma that you posed."
😅 Yeah, it was fascinating to watch in myself! This conversation took place over the course of a few days. And it was one of the few that I couldn't get out of my head once I'd stepped away from the computer. I was talking to my friends about it. Reading and re-reading his replies wondering if I was the one missing something. It was a trip!
As I've said, I've had so many conversations on so many topics. Most of them about race. I've spoken to plenty of outright racists over the years, and I've never found it so difficult to separate my dislike for somebody's views from my dislike for the person. I think it was just the dishonesty and stupidity of his arguments, coupled with his utter disdain for the boundaries and safety of women and girls, that created the perfect storm.
As for what it feels like to be a man or a woman, I've also asked many of my friends. None of them could answer either, because the concept is logically incoherent at best and regressive at worst. It's fascinating to hear the same people talking about getting rid of gender also talking about how girls how like "boy's toys" or boys who are sensitive must literally be the opposite gender.
That said, as I wrote in the conversation, I don't think trans people are faking. Feelings simply *are* logically incoherent sometimes. I compare it to being in love. How do you know you've been in love? Could you describe it to somebody else? Do you think if you asked somebody to define it their definition would map perfectly onto yours? Yet I'm guessing you're certain that you've been in love at some point.
I think some trans people create an image of manhood or womanhood in their minds and they project onto it. For others it's about being perceived in a certain way (or not having to live up to the expectations of their gender). Others simply feel intense discomfort with their secondary sex characteristics and want to change them. I'm sure for others it's something else. Arguably the notion that there is such a thing as a "feeling" that accompanies gender is a feature of being trans. I've never met somebody who *isnt* trans who experienced the same feeling.
The fundamental problem is that you're not allowed to admit that gender dysphoria is a mental condition anymore. But of course it is. How else do you describe a condition where your internal sense of yourself doesn't match external reality? How else do you describe a condition that if left untreated leads to higher incidence of suicide and self harm? There needn't be shame in admitting that it's a condition. Just as we don't shame people for having schizophrenia, say. The question is simply how do we best help people with dysphoria? I absolutely believe we should help them (and everybody) as much as possible. We just need to figure out how to do so without opening women up to harm.
Hey Derek, I don't know if you've ever read the Lisa Littman paper on ROGD (Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria) but it was ridiculously, needlessly controversial. She identified what she thinks is behind a lot of the alleged 'gender dysphoria' of children and teenagers, both of whom, if you keep up on the news of such, are being subjected to life-altering surgeries and harmful pre-puberty hormone blockers because they 'feel like' they're born into the wrong body. The weird thing is is it historically started in early childhood, yet ROGD seems to start in adolescence, coinciding, she notes, with the rise of social media. It's worth a read, or at least a skim, but it identifies other reasons for feeling 'gender dysphoric' other than genuinely feeling like one should have been born a wo/man. Including some fairly fucked up reasons like 'not wanting to live in a misogynist society' (girls) and 'not wanting to live in a homophobic society (gay girls/boys).
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330
For more detail on 'autogynephilic' transwomen, check out Dr. Raymond Blanchard's "The Man Who Would Be Queen", about transgenders ('transsexuals' as they were still called back in 2003 or '04 when it was published) for a more mainstream, somewhat less academic take than the Littman paper (but still, Littman isn't ridiculously dry and full). Blanchard pioneered research into gender dysphoria and the people who changed, several years before it became 'cool'. He identified two kinds: Autogynephilic (AGP) transwomen who derived sexual pleasure from dressign as, acting as, or fantasizing about being a woman, and homosexual transgenders, who thought life would be easier as a woman, and they'd be more attractive to men. (The ugly reality: Being a transgender woman, with or without a penis, makes you one of the least desired romantic partners by everyone).
My *theory* is that the AGP transwomen (and cross-dressing supporters - we called them 'cross-dressers' back in the day or 'transvestites', don't use either of those words publicly unless you're tired of possessing your hide) are the ones toting all the traditional cis-het misogynist drama to the protests and Twitter flamings. This is my big interest in the trans craze/movement: What's up with all the misogynists in dresses and the Regressive Left feminists who love them?
Blanchard didn't focus on transmen in his book. My issue with his book is that he never really addressed people who went transgender *because they really felt born into the wrong body*. These are the kids who present as being girly, feminine or gay, who say they want to be girls or women, *and don't outgrow it*. I believe those folk exist, and I've known a few, but I think a lot of people, especially young people, are doing it now because it's 'cool', and also because they're being led astray by what should be responsible grownups around them to think that changing gender will solve all their problems.
You can download the PDF version of Blanchard's book legally here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281747420_The_Man_Who_Would_Be_Queen
Eye-opening stuff. I've also been listening to panels and podcasts about it. I want to be supportive of the folks who really do just want to live their lives without a lot of drama, versus the ones who act rather a lot like Joe Rogan in lipstick and a dress.
(Sorry...disturbing mental image alert? :) )
BTW, the trans community hates the Blanchard book for many reasons, mostly because it fails to be woke enough for 2022. It's not a perfect book, and neither is the Littman paper, but they've got plenty to recommend and think about. Meanwhile, I pursue my intellectual interest in AGP transwomen in order to answer the transmisogyny issue.
Hi
First I would like to thank you for a comprehensive note you have sent in reply.
There are two issues for me. One is related to the psychology of feeling or not feeling aligned with your sex (to shorthand that discussion for now). Of course it goes without saying that any psychological distress a person is feeling needs recognition and some sympathy. But obviously various people (medical, psychiatric or those from a sociological background) may then argue about what the best remedy for relieving that distress may be. I’m sure it’s different for many people that share similar distress about their sexuality. Having worked in mental health for many years it became obvious that whereas people might present in similar ways, it was only after careful analysis with that particular individual that you could understand that problem in any context. You do highlight some of the complexity in the subject, but complexity I fear that at least some people don’t seem to want to acknowledge.
Anyway thats a hugely complex set of issues and thanks for the references (as there is always more to learn.)
But I’m equally (perhaps more) interested in the dynamics of those that involve themselves in the vitriolic arguments that ensue over this particular issue.
The trans voices (I have sought out-are some of the quieter voices) and they seem to be more moderate and sane and acknowledge lots of the potential conflicts of interest between various groups of people involved (women’s rights versus trans rights etc). But there certainly are some voices that will not even allow for any discussion to take place at all. Which really makes me think there is something else going on for those individuals other than any anger about the issue they profess to be angry about. But maybe I’m wrong on that.
But I come back to a point I have made before to many other folk.
(Actually it’s a set of questions.)
Is there anyone out there (maybe I will read something in the links kindly sent) that can tell me ( a 67 year old man that should know by now) what it ‘feels like’ to be a man?
Or a woman that can tell me what it feels like to be a woman?
Or what it feels like not to ‘feel like’ the sex assigned at birth?
If any of those questions appears insulting to anyone reading I apologise beforehand. But nobody I have ever spoken to (Male or Female) has ever given me the answer to any of those questions. (up till now anyway.)
Thanks again for the links I will certainly take a look.
Regards
Derek
My interest in the trans movement is because I have a dog in this fight: I'm a natal woman who focuses and writes about women and others taking back their power, and I'm trying to figure out where the misogyny is coming from with the loudmouth extremely male 'transwomen' activists.
I got kicked off the Medium platform last fall because i criticized the trans community too much, and that is verboten to the far left mindset that seems to have infected the editorial staff there. I was also at the time in an argument with one of the Regressive Left feminists who writes reams on 'patriarchy' and 'misogyny' yet argued to me that if a man says he's a woman he's a woman, and who didn't want to acknowledge the extreme misogyny in some of these TRAs (trans-rights activists, the loudest of all being almost exclusively 'transwomen').
Where TRA misogyny comes from seems to be a subject most trans movement supporters aren't much interested in, most mystifyingly of all from 'feminists'.
As for your questions, I have no idea. I don't think anyone really thinks about that question except those who truly were born that way, a small percentage, and those who've been encouraged to think that way after trans became fashionable.