Yes, fair enough - I only mention it as I find you to be as intellectually honest a discussion partner as I've found online in all of these discussion platforms. The causal chain from oppression to extremism is, I think, not that simple - more dependent on cultural factors. e.g. who have been more oppressed than the women of the…
Yes, fair enough - I only mention it as I find you to be as intellectually honest a discussion partner as I've found online in all of these discussion platforms. The causal chain from oppression to extremism is, I think, not that simple - more dependent on cultural factors. e.g. who have been more oppressed than the women of the Middle East broadly speaking?There are no homicidal revolts against the men in those societies. Not asking for one, but questioning the validity of the general observation. The history of the world is writ in blood and oppression. At some point, the rehearsal of ancient ills should be informative and not performative (no shade on you; a general observation). I'm more interested in the arrow moving forward and the shared ideals and plans to get somewhere, for lack of a better term, "better". One thing left out of all of these discussions is the role of prescriptive programming from early childhood. It is no accident that even in the most progressive e.g. UN-run UNRWA schools, the PA textbooks with violent extremism are used and upheld. At some level these children are being conscripted into a worldview that is poisonous to their well-being.
"There are no homicidal revolts against the men in those societies. Not asking for one, but questioning the validity of the general observation."
Personally, I'd love to see one. I couldn't wish enough suffering on the Taliban or the "morality police" for example. But there are obvious reasons why violent uprisings aren't the method of choice for women being oppressed by men.
And even in cases that involve men vs men, the circumstances aren't usually dire enough that an armed uprising will feel like the best option The oppressed group is almost always, pretty much by definition, outmanned and outgunned. An uprising is almost always a suicide mission. So they'll tend towards legal or diplomatic means unless things are *really* bad. The civil rights movement is a good example of this. Segregation was terrible. But not quite, "let's slaughter the random women and children of our enemies" terrible.
But in Palestine's case, and in Turner's, it's hard to see what non-violent options they had. As Ami Ayalon put it, "you cannot deter someone who thinks he has nothing to lose." And neither the Palestinians nor the slaves have/had much to lose.
As always, the big fat caveat that my sympathy with the plight of the Palestinians doesn't mean I think Hamas was in any way justified. Even in the most desperate situations, there are basic standards of humanity. Hamas violated these standards. So did Turner. But the reasons why their compatriots don't condemn those violations as easily as we do from our positions of safety and freedom, are important.
As for indoctrination, there are two points to make.
First to borrow the slaves again, do you think there would have been much work required to conscript the slaves into a worldview where they hated white America? Don't you think the circumstances of their lives would have done that just fine? Indeed, the indoctrination required was to make the slaves docile and subservient so that their natural human desire to rebel against their oppression was beaten out of them.
And second, there is abundant evidence of the indoctrination Jewish children undergo in Israel and around the world. I've seen far more of that than I have indoctrination of Palestinians. Though obviously this could simply be that I've missed it and not that it's not there.
As history teaches us over and over again, the best medicine for prejudice is exposure and equality. The Israelis and Palestinians lack both of these. And it's yet another reason why peace and freedom as soon as possible is such an important goal.
Fair enough, although I think our views diverge in a few places, which is natural. Everyone is wrong and everyone is justified to one or another degree. War is a mess, and having a war where the leadership decided to abscond to another country to avoid the worst of it is another unusual circumstance on top of that. re: mutual exposure as a tonic for prejudice - yes, this has been my personal experience as well. Many friends of all sorts before I discovered how society chose to "racialize" me. However, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that both Israel and Palestine lack this - some 15-20% of arabic muslims living and working in Israel pre Oct 7th. In leadership roles in parliament, etc. As you know, trying to find the reciprocal situation in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, etc. I mean there are more jews in Kenya than Syria right now. Don't want to play the fact check game as we're both freely writing, but I think that's significant.
"As you know, trying to find the reciprocal situation in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, etc"
Yep, this is true. Partly because no Jew, or sane person in general, would choose to live in Gaza if they had other options. But also, yes, because choosing to live in Gaza as a Jew would be largely insane.
The settlers who live in the West Bank do so because they know the IDF have their backs and yet they still live in completely isolated communities where they don't see Palestinians unless they're fighting them or using them to build their houses.
From what I know of Israel, Arabs and Jews don't really mix that much. So while it's true that there's a higher proportion of Arabs in Israel than there are Jews in Gaza, I'm not sure how much it helps re: fighting prejudice/indictrination. Even if there were peace tomorrow, that's going to be a slow, painful process. Just as it has been in America.
Hi Steve,
Yes, fair enough - I only mention it as I find you to be as intellectually honest a discussion partner as I've found online in all of these discussion platforms. The causal chain from oppression to extremism is, I think, not that simple - more dependent on cultural factors. e.g. who have been more oppressed than the women of the Middle East broadly speaking?There are no homicidal revolts against the men in those societies. Not asking for one, but questioning the validity of the general observation. The history of the world is writ in blood and oppression. At some point, the rehearsal of ancient ills should be informative and not performative (no shade on you; a general observation). I'm more interested in the arrow moving forward and the shared ideals and plans to get somewhere, for lack of a better term, "better". One thing left out of all of these discussions is the role of prescriptive programming from early childhood. It is no accident that even in the most progressive e.g. UN-run UNRWA schools, the PA textbooks with violent extremism are used and upheld. At some level these children are being conscripted into a worldview that is poisonous to their well-being.
"There are no homicidal revolts against the men in those societies. Not asking for one, but questioning the validity of the general observation."
Personally, I'd love to see one. I couldn't wish enough suffering on the Taliban or the "morality police" for example. But there are obvious reasons why violent uprisings aren't the method of choice for women being oppressed by men.
And even in cases that involve men vs men, the circumstances aren't usually dire enough that an armed uprising will feel like the best option The oppressed group is almost always, pretty much by definition, outmanned and outgunned. An uprising is almost always a suicide mission. So they'll tend towards legal or diplomatic means unless things are *really* bad. The civil rights movement is a good example of this. Segregation was terrible. But not quite, "let's slaughter the random women and children of our enemies" terrible.
But in Palestine's case, and in Turner's, it's hard to see what non-violent options they had. As Ami Ayalon put it, "you cannot deter someone who thinks he has nothing to lose." And neither the Palestinians nor the slaves have/had much to lose.
As always, the big fat caveat that my sympathy with the plight of the Palestinians doesn't mean I think Hamas was in any way justified. Even in the most desperate situations, there are basic standards of humanity. Hamas violated these standards. So did Turner. But the reasons why their compatriots don't condemn those violations as easily as we do from our positions of safety and freedom, are important.
As for indoctrination, there are two points to make.
First to borrow the slaves again, do you think there would have been much work required to conscript the slaves into a worldview where they hated white America? Don't you think the circumstances of their lives would have done that just fine? Indeed, the indoctrination required was to make the slaves docile and subservient so that their natural human desire to rebel against their oppression was beaten out of them.
And second, there is abundant evidence of the indoctrination Jewish children undergo in Israel and around the world. I've seen far more of that than I have indoctrination of Palestinians. Though obviously this could simply be that I've missed it and not that it's not there.
As history teaches us over and over again, the best medicine for prejudice is exposure and equality. The Israelis and Palestinians lack both of these. And it's yet another reason why peace and freedom as soon as possible is such an important goal.
Hi Steve,
Fair enough, although I think our views diverge in a few places, which is natural. Everyone is wrong and everyone is justified to one or another degree. War is a mess, and having a war where the leadership decided to abscond to another country to avoid the worst of it is another unusual circumstance on top of that. re: mutual exposure as a tonic for prejudice - yes, this has been my personal experience as well. Many friends of all sorts before I discovered how society chose to "racialize" me. However, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that both Israel and Palestine lack this - some 15-20% of arabic muslims living and working in Israel pre Oct 7th. In leadership roles in parliament, etc. As you know, trying to find the reciprocal situation in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, etc. I mean there are more jews in Kenya than Syria right now. Don't want to play the fact check game as we're both freely writing, but I think that's significant.
"As you know, trying to find the reciprocal situation in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, etc"
Yep, this is true. Partly because no Jew, or sane person in general, would choose to live in Gaza if they had other options. But also, yes, because choosing to live in Gaza as a Jew would be largely insane.
The settlers who live in the West Bank do so because they know the IDF have their backs and yet they still live in completely isolated communities where they don't see Palestinians unless they're fighting them or using them to build their houses.
From what I know of Israel, Arabs and Jews don't really mix that much. So while it's true that there's a higher proportion of Arabs in Israel than there are Jews in Gaza, I'm not sure how much it helps re: fighting prejudice/indictrination. Even if there were peace tomorrow, that's going to be a slow, painful process. Just as it has been in America.