Not terribly impressed with straw man arguments about identity and trans people. Ever known a trans person? Ever spent hundreds of hours talking with trans people? Of course not. (I have: eye opening). But that doesn’t stop so many “well intentioned” people from glibly dismissing trans people’s struggles as primarily some sort of abuse o…
Not terribly impressed with straw man arguments about identity and trans people. Ever known a trans person? Ever spent hundreds of hours talking with trans people? Of course not. (I have: eye opening). But that doesn’t stop so many “well intentioned” people from glibly dismissing trans people’s struggles as primarily some sort of abuse of language (whose language? Who owns language?). The argument that biology equals identity seems like a strangely arbitrary bit of taxonomic laziness born primarily, as usual, of ignorance. I cannot figure out why cisgendered folk who—at this point—would never tell a gay person how they’re supposed to understand their own experience feel perfectly qualified to dismiss the trans experience from the comfortable perspective of someone who has never had to struggle with gender. Could it be because it’s just so much fun! to pick on someone in a relatively powerless minority? I would love to be wrong.
"I cannot figure out why cisgendered folk who—at this point—would never tell a gay person how they’re supposed to understand their own experience feel perfectly qualified to dismiss the trans experience from the comfortable perspective of someone who has never had to struggle with gender."
I'm glad you would love to be wrong. Because you are. I don't know about you, but I don't find it fun to pick on anybody, "relatively powerless" or not. Which is why I'm not picking on anybody.
But if you'd like an answer to the question I've quoted above, the difference is that gay people don't require everybody in society to participate in their experience. I'm not dismissing the trans experience. Not at all. I'm just not dismissing the female experience either. And there are a few places where trans rights (specifically trans women's rights) bump up against women's sex-based rights. A good example of this is prisons.
There's currently lots of controversy about cases where trans women have been housed in women's prisons and have sexually assaulted or impregnated the female prisoners. The argument for justifying this is that trans women face the danger of assault if they're imprisoned with men. But if your argument is that trans women should be housed with women, shouldn't you feel equally strongly that trans men be housed with men? With all the dangers that would bring? And yet trans men are also typically housed with women. Because, you guessed it, of the danger of assault if they're imprisoned with men.
So my question is, where's the consistency? If trans men are men, why aren't you insisting that they are housed with male prisoners? Is it perhaps because you understand that the situation is more complex than that? If so, you also understand women's objection to being imprisoned with trans women.
And, to answer your first question, yes, I have known numerous trans people. I've physically, in *real-life*, fought to defend trans people. I've had hundreds of conversations in person and online with trans people (by the way, almost all the trans people I've met in real life understand these points perfectly well). So, to come full circle, you're wrong. I have no desire to pick on trans people. I just won't stand by while women are picked on either.
Well, I’m all for spreading the not-picking-on around. Your concern about prison populations is obviously a good example of how “tran rights” can go off the rails. In that case I would argue the problem isn’t so much trans women, it’s rapists, but the fact that the two groups intersect is clearly problematic. No argument there. I think I may have entered that conversation at an inopportune point. If I had had some sense that the conversation wAs about protecting women from any(!) kind of predation, I’d have kept my mouth shut. I have no interest in dismissing any group’s experience/concerns either, certainly not women. (I have to think about whether, for example, i might be in favor of dismissing the KKK’s ‘concerns’ out of hand.)
"In that case I would argue the problem isn’t so much trans women, it’s rapists"
Oh, absolutely. And I'm not arguing that trans women are predators. The issue is the increasingly broad push for self ID, whereby male convicts can simply declare themselves women, with "no hormones, surgery or time spent living as the opposite sex required," (taken from this article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/male-inmates-in-womens-prisons-11622474215) and gain access to women's prisons.
This is so obviously dangerous that I can't believe anybody would support it. But the rush to affirm anybody who says they might be trans (and the conflation of *any* sensible guidelines for treating people who present with gender dysphoria, with "conversion therapy") has, in some cases, led to an almost pathological disdain for the rights, safety and comfort of women.
p.s. I must admit, I tend to dismiss the KKK's concerns out of hand. So far it's worked out pretty well. 😁
Well, I sure don’t support disdain for anyone’s rights, safety or even comfort. P.p.s. Yeah, I only mentioned KKK because I caught myself saying I don’t like to dismiss anyone’s POV and it didn’t take me long to see the BS in my claim.
Not terribly impressed with straw man arguments about identity and trans people. Ever known a trans person? Ever spent hundreds of hours talking with trans people? Of course not. (I have: eye opening). But that doesn’t stop so many “well intentioned” people from glibly dismissing trans people’s struggles as primarily some sort of abuse of language (whose language? Who owns language?). The argument that biology equals identity seems like a strangely arbitrary bit of taxonomic laziness born primarily, as usual, of ignorance. I cannot figure out why cisgendered folk who—at this point—would never tell a gay person how they’re supposed to understand their own experience feel perfectly qualified to dismiss the trans experience from the comfortable perspective of someone who has never had to struggle with gender. Could it be because it’s just so much fun! to pick on someone in a relatively powerless minority? I would love to be wrong.
"I cannot figure out why cisgendered folk who—at this point—would never tell a gay person how they’re supposed to understand their own experience feel perfectly qualified to dismiss the trans experience from the comfortable perspective of someone who has never had to struggle with gender."
I'm glad you would love to be wrong. Because you are. I don't know about you, but I don't find it fun to pick on anybody, "relatively powerless" or not. Which is why I'm not picking on anybody.
But if you'd like an answer to the question I've quoted above, the difference is that gay people don't require everybody in society to participate in their experience. I'm not dismissing the trans experience. Not at all. I'm just not dismissing the female experience either. And there are a few places where trans rights (specifically trans women's rights) bump up against women's sex-based rights. A good example of this is prisons.
There's currently lots of controversy about cases where trans women have been housed in women's prisons and have sexually assaulted or impregnated the female prisoners. The argument for justifying this is that trans women face the danger of assault if they're imprisoned with men. But if your argument is that trans women should be housed with women, shouldn't you feel equally strongly that trans men be housed with men? With all the dangers that would bring? And yet trans men are also typically housed with women. Because, you guessed it, of the danger of assault if they're imprisoned with men.
So my question is, where's the consistency? If trans men are men, why aren't you insisting that they are housed with male prisoners? Is it perhaps because you understand that the situation is more complex than that? If so, you also understand women's objection to being imprisoned with trans women.
And, to answer your first question, yes, I have known numerous trans people. I've physically, in *real-life*, fought to defend trans people. I've had hundreds of conversations in person and online with trans people (by the way, almost all the trans people I've met in real life understand these points perfectly well). So, to come full circle, you're wrong. I have no desire to pick on trans people. I just won't stand by while women are picked on either.
Well, I’m all for spreading the not-picking-on around. Your concern about prison populations is obviously a good example of how “tran rights” can go off the rails. In that case I would argue the problem isn’t so much trans women, it’s rapists, but the fact that the two groups intersect is clearly problematic. No argument there. I think I may have entered that conversation at an inopportune point. If I had had some sense that the conversation wAs about protecting women from any(!) kind of predation, I’d have kept my mouth shut. I have no interest in dismissing any group’s experience/concerns either, certainly not women. (I have to think about whether, for example, i might be in favor of dismissing the KKK’s ‘concerns’ out of hand.)
"In that case I would argue the problem isn’t so much trans women, it’s rapists"
Oh, absolutely. And I'm not arguing that trans women are predators. The issue is the increasingly broad push for self ID, whereby male convicts can simply declare themselves women, with "no hormones, surgery or time spent living as the opposite sex required," (taken from this article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/male-inmates-in-womens-prisons-11622474215) and gain access to women's prisons.
This is so obviously dangerous that I can't believe anybody would support it. But the rush to affirm anybody who says they might be trans (and the conflation of *any* sensible guidelines for treating people who present with gender dysphoria, with "conversion therapy") has, in some cases, led to an almost pathological disdain for the rights, safety and comfort of women.
p.s. I must admit, I tend to dismiss the KKK's concerns out of hand. So far it's worked out pretty well. 😁
Well, I sure don’t support disdain for anyone’s rights, safety or even comfort. P.p.s. Yeah, I only mentioned KKK because I caught myself saying I don’t like to dismiss anyone’s POV and it didn’t take me long to see the BS in my claim.