"“All men are trash” is perhaps less about condemning a group for their biology than it is about stating that a class of people cause most of the violence against women and the ones that don’t, do little to stop it."
Right, I've made the point numerous times recently that men commit something like 99% of all sexual assault. But that's ver…
"“All men are trash” is perhaps less about condemning a group for their biology than it is about stating that a class of people cause most of the violence against women and the ones that don’t, do little to stop it."
Right, I've made the point numerous times recently that men commit something like 99% of all sexual assault. But that's very different from saying that 99% of men commit sexual assault. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's the mistake that I think get's made here.
Just because I have the figures to hand, I made a similar argument about black crime recently.
Racists just loooove to point out that African Americans, while only 13% of the population, commit over 50% of the homicides. And this is, unfortunately, a fact. So they make the case that such disproportionality proves that black people are all criminals by nature.
But if you look at it a little more intelligently, you see that of the 46.8 million African Americans, even if every "black" homicide was committed by a different black person (i.e. there were no repeat offenders), that entire 51% of homicides is committed by 0.008% of the black community. It's very difficult to claim that something that only 0.008% of a population does is a representative problem for that group.
I don't know how sexual assault statistics among men shake out. But I'm pretty confident we'd end up with a similar situation. Even if the figure were closer to 1 or 2% of men. We need to be much smarter about lumping entire categories of people in with the evil actions of certain members.
Yes, I agree we need to tease out the reality of violence when an entire group gets painted with the label.
But what happens when we add in “and says nothing to stop it”?
Black communities decry the violence in their communities. Groups are formed to address the problem.
Rarely do we see a group of men decrying violence against women. It is just not the norm. Silence more often is. I mean, can we name even ten groups, comprised of men, that formed to address the problem of male violence against women? I can probably name several Black groups formed to deal with Black men’s violence within their communities in my city alone.
"But what happens when we add in “and says nothing to stop it”?"
Yeah, this is a fair point. I'm just not sure that sexual assault is the kind of problem you can form a group to prevent. I don't know of any groups by women formed for this purpose either. The groups that exist are generally for dealing with the aftermath, no? Maybe I'm missing something there though.
I've had this conversation a few times. Sexual violence is a problem caused by men. No argument from me. But I have yet to hear anybody come up with an idea about how to solve that problem. Because a) as I said, I think it's actually only a tiny minority of men who are guilty of it, and b) the men doing it know it's wrong. It's like people who murder or people who steal. How do you form an organisation to stop them?
I'm not being glib here. I'd love to write about any methods that have shown results. I've genuinely given this a lot of thought myself too. I just don't have any answers unfortunately.
Off the top of my head, I know there are groups for male batterers to help them stop from reoffending. I think there may be some campus groups where male students walk women to their cars a night.
There are also numerous groups formed by women to both prevent and deal with the aftermath of male violence. RAINN, NCADV, groups that talk to high school and college kids, Take Back the Night groups.
So, my point is that men are not spearheading this. And if over 25% of women experience male violence, it cannot be just 1-2% of men who are doing this. It has only been recently that we have talked as a country about how having sex with a woman too drunk to say no is rape.
I know men who have done this. They did not consider it to be rape. They were not “criminals.” Many of them were frat brothers or football teams. So, I think it is a different situation than dealing with murdered or thieves.
"And if over 25% of women experience male violence, it cannot be just 1-2% of men who are doing this."
Yeah, I'd have found it equally difficult to believe, until I crunched the numbers, that 0.008% of African Americans (at most) are responsible for 51% of homicides in America. I expected it to be pretty low, but I had to re-check the figures numerous times before I could convince myself it was *that* low. The type of man who would do something like this isn't likely to stop at doing it to one woman.
But look, no part of me wants to quibble with you here. Or minimise the efforts that are being made to deal with this problem. And especially not the problem itself. Education about consent is incredibly important. But the reason I made the comparison to murder or theft is that there is already a huge amount of messaging in society telling men that rape is wrong. Not to mention the law of course.
These men do what they do *despite* the messaging. Not because they honestly didn't realise that having sex with a woman who has passed out is wrong. I think those men you're talking about absolutely know what they did is wrong. They're just not going to admit it out loud.
Again, I'm not trying to minimise sexual violence in any way. Or deny that it's infuriating that more men don't step up in some way to deal with it. Even if that's just when they see something happening in front of them. My issue here is simply with broadening responsibility out to everybody who shares a particular trait with the person causing the problem.
I appreciate the dialogue. I admin a group on FB called Headstrong Lesbians and this is our goal, too. Good dialogue exploring contentious topics, not making each other the enemy. Allow others to feel valued even when we disagree with them.
"“All men are trash” is perhaps less about condemning a group for their biology than it is about stating that a class of people cause most of the violence against women and the ones that don’t, do little to stop it."
Right, I've made the point numerous times recently that men commit something like 99% of all sexual assault. But that's very different from saying that 99% of men commit sexual assault. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's the mistake that I think get's made here.
Just because I have the figures to hand, I made a similar argument about black crime recently.
Racists just loooove to point out that African Americans, while only 13% of the population, commit over 50% of the homicides. And this is, unfortunately, a fact. So they make the case that such disproportionality proves that black people are all criminals by nature.
But if you look at it a little more intelligently, you see that of the 46.8 million African Americans, even if every "black" homicide was committed by a different black person (i.e. there were no repeat offenders), that entire 51% of homicides is committed by 0.008% of the black community. It's very difficult to claim that something that only 0.008% of a population does is a representative problem for that group.
I don't know how sexual assault statistics among men shake out. But I'm pretty confident we'd end up with a similar situation. Even if the figure were closer to 1 or 2% of men. We need to be much smarter about lumping entire categories of people in with the evil actions of certain members.
Yes, I agree we need to tease out the reality of violence when an entire group gets painted with the label.
But what happens when we add in “and says nothing to stop it”?
Black communities decry the violence in their communities. Groups are formed to address the problem.
Rarely do we see a group of men decrying violence against women. It is just not the norm. Silence more often is. I mean, can we name even ten groups, comprised of men, that formed to address the problem of male violence against women? I can probably name several Black groups formed to deal with Black men’s violence within their communities in my city alone.
"But what happens when we add in “and says nothing to stop it”?"
Yeah, this is a fair point. I'm just not sure that sexual assault is the kind of problem you can form a group to prevent. I don't know of any groups by women formed for this purpose either. The groups that exist are generally for dealing with the aftermath, no? Maybe I'm missing something there though.
I've had this conversation a few times. Sexual violence is a problem caused by men. No argument from me. But I have yet to hear anybody come up with an idea about how to solve that problem. Because a) as I said, I think it's actually only a tiny minority of men who are guilty of it, and b) the men doing it know it's wrong. It's like people who murder or people who steal. How do you form an organisation to stop them?
I'm not being glib here. I'd love to write about any methods that have shown results. I've genuinely given this a lot of thought myself too. I just don't have any answers unfortunately.
Off the top of my head, I know there are groups for male batterers to help them stop from reoffending. I think there may be some campus groups where male students walk women to their cars a night.
There are also numerous groups formed by women to both prevent and deal with the aftermath of male violence. RAINN, NCADV, groups that talk to high school and college kids, Take Back the Night groups.
So, my point is that men are not spearheading this. And if over 25% of women experience male violence, it cannot be just 1-2% of men who are doing this. It has only been recently that we have talked as a country about how having sex with a woman too drunk to say no is rape.
I know men who have done this. They did not consider it to be rape. They were not “criminals.” Many of them were frat brothers or football teams. So, I think it is a different situation than dealing with murdered or thieves.
"And if over 25% of women experience male violence, it cannot be just 1-2% of men who are doing this."
Yeah, I'd have found it equally difficult to believe, until I crunched the numbers, that 0.008% of African Americans (at most) are responsible for 51% of homicides in America. I expected it to be pretty low, but I had to re-check the figures numerous times before I could convince myself it was *that* low. The type of man who would do something like this isn't likely to stop at doing it to one woman.
But look, no part of me wants to quibble with you here. Or minimise the efforts that are being made to deal with this problem. And especially not the problem itself. Education about consent is incredibly important. But the reason I made the comparison to murder or theft is that there is already a huge amount of messaging in society telling men that rape is wrong. Not to mention the law of course.
These men do what they do *despite* the messaging. Not because they honestly didn't realise that having sex with a woman who has passed out is wrong. I think those men you're talking about absolutely know what they did is wrong. They're just not going to admit it out loud.
Again, I'm not trying to minimise sexual violence in any way. Or deny that it's infuriating that more men don't step up in some way to deal with it. Even if that's just when they see something happening in front of them. My issue here is simply with broadening responsibility out to everybody who shares a particular trait with the person causing the problem.
I appreciate the dialogue. I admin a group on FB called Headstrong Lesbians and this is our goal, too. Good dialogue exploring contentious topics, not making each other the enemy. Allow others to feel valued even when we disagree with them.
Keep up the good work, Steve!