"And dressing as a woman, getting hormone treatments, and surgical castration don't make a man a woman either."
Yes, you're right. But I wonder how many women would object to sharing a space with a male who'd had these procedures done. I'm absolutely certain it would be lower than the number who have objections to sharing a space with a m…
"And dressing as a woman, getting hormone treatments, and surgical castration don't make a man a woman either."
Yes, you're right. But I wonder how many women would object to sharing a space with a male who'd had these procedures done. I'm absolutely certain it would be lower than the number who have objections to sharing a space with a male who hasn't undergone any changes whatsoever.
That's the whole point of this conversation for me; finding a reasonable middle ground. I think that's the point for most women too. The idea that you can be treated as a woman simply by saying you are one is preposterous. But the idea that you can be treated as a woman if you do everything you can to rid yourself of your "maleness"? Personally, I don't find that unreasonable.
Now, of course, it's not about what *I* find reasonable. The most infuriating aspect of his whole situation is seeing how women are being ignored and abused for expressing their feelings on what a woman is. Women, and only women, should have the final say on where the line of "womanhood" lies.
But given that I genuinely do want trans women to be protected and affirmed to the greatest degree that's reasonably possible, I hope this conversation detoxifies enough that a solution that satisfies the maximum number of people can be reached.
well, ignoring the viewpoints of women is hardly without precedent, now is it.
I don't think formally or legally redefining even a fully feminized man as a woman is going to convince everyone, male or female that this former male should be accepted into the most private of woman-only areas e.g. bathrooms. I don't think niological men should be in women's sports at all. And having so many shrieking about misogyny and "transphobia" (what a stupid word, it should be transmisia, homomisia, etc.) isn't helping at all.
You will never get unanimity, but progress is possible. That progress recedes when you count cosplay as gender identity,
I presume in your final paragraph that you are referring to the authentically dysphoric, in which case I agree; I can't bring myself to extend the same to the nonbinary, who should never be allowed into female "spaces" (ugh).
"I don't think formally or legally redefining even a fully feminized man as a woman is going to convince everyone"
Yeah, absolutely. *Nothing* is going to convince everyone. 'Twas ever thus. Some women are going to be unhappy if trans women are permanently excluded from female spaces. Some will be unhappy if even fully transitioned trans women are allowed to use bathrooms. That's why I'm hammering on the word "reasonable." And I actually think bathrooms are the least controversial spaces for most women.
Unlike us floor-pissing neanderthals, women always have private stalls in which to use the bathroom. There are certainly some women who still object to trans women using bathrooms, and I get it, but once we recognise the fact that trans people exist, the most logical solution, in my opinion, is that trans people use the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
I've written about this in more detail here (https://steveqj.substack.com/p/every-time-i-think-the-left-has-jumped?s=w) but the short version is, if you're forcing trans women to use men's bathrooms, you're also forcing trans men to use women's bathrooms. But there's a problem. Trans men, in many cases, look absolutely indistinguishable from men. Beards and all. So what you're really doing is normalising the sight of completely masculine looking people walking into female bathrooms.
There's the trope of the pervy man in a dress trying to sneak into women's bathrooms, but what you'd end up with, is pervy men not even having to bother with the dress. Bathrooms aren't segregated by sex, they're segregated by gender expression (masculinity/femininity). Butch women already find themselves questioned in female bathrooms sometimes. And trans women who "pass" sail right in unchallenged.
But while bathrooms are segregated by gender expression, changing rooms, sports and rape crisis centres are segregated by biological sex. So a different conversation needs to be had there.
And yes, I'm always only referring to genuinely gender dysphoric people when I say trans. "Non-binary" people, and everybody else who likes to "dismantle categories" because they think it's "edgy", while giving no thought to the implications of their stupid, postmodernist games, can take a running jump.
"And dressing as a woman, getting hormone treatments, and surgical castration don't make a man a woman either."
Yes, you're right. But I wonder how many women would object to sharing a space with a male who'd had these procedures done. I'm absolutely certain it would be lower than the number who have objections to sharing a space with a male who hasn't undergone any changes whatsoever.
That's the whole point of this conversation for me; finding a reasonable middle ground. I think that's the point for most women too. The idea that you can be treated as a woman simply by saying you are one is preposterous. But the idea that you can be treated as a woman if you do everything you can to rid yourself of your "maleness"? Personally, I don't find that unreasonable.
Now, of course, it's not about what *I* find reasonable. The most infuriating aspect of his whole situation is seeing how women are being ignored and abused for expressing their feelings on what a woman is. Women, and only women, should have the final say on where the line of "womanhood" lies.
But given that I genuinely do want trans women to be protected and affirmed to the greatest degree that's reasonably possible, I hope this conversation detoxifies enough that a solution that satisfies the maximum number of people can be reached.
well, ignoring the viewpoints of women is hardly without precedent, now is it.
I don't think formally or legally redefining even a fully feminized man as a woman is going to convince everyone, male or female that this former male should be accepted into the most private of woman-only areas e.g. bathrooms. I don't think niological men should be in women's sports at all. And having so many shrieking about misogyny and "transphobia" (what a stupid word, it should be transmisia, homomisia, etc.) isn't helping at all.
You will never get unanimity, but progress is possible. That progress recedes when you count cosplay as gender identity,
I presume in your final paragraph that you are referring to the authentically dysphoric, in which case I agree; I can't bring myself to extend the same to the nonbinary, who should never be allowed into female "spaces" (ugh).
"I don't think formally or legally redefining even a fully feminized man as a woman is going to convince everyone"
Yeah, absolutely. *Nothing* is going to convince everyone. 'Twas ever thus. Some women are going to be unhappy if trans women are permanently excluded from female spaces. Some will be unhappy if even fully transitioned trans women are allowed to use bathrooms. That's why I'm hammering on the word "reasonable." And I actually think bathrooms are the least controversial spaces for most women.
Unlike us floor-pissing neanderthals, women always have private stalls in which to use the bathroom. There are certainly some women who still object to trans women using bathrooms, and I get it, but once we recognise the fact that trans people exist, the most logical solution, in my opinion, is that trans people use the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
I've written about this in more detail here (https://steveqj.substack.com/p/every-time-i-think-the-left-has-jumped?s=w) but the short version is, if you're forcing trans women to use men's bathrooms, you're also forcing trans men to use women's bathrooms. But there's a problem. Trans men, in many cases, look absolutely indistinguishable from men. Beards and all. So what you're really doing is normalising the sight of completely masculine looking people walking into female bathrooms.
There's the trope of the pervy man in a dress trying to sneak into women's bathrooms, but what you'd end up with, is pervy men not even having to bother with the dress. Bathrooms aren't segregated by sex, they're segregated by gender expression (masculinity/femininity). Butch women already find themselves questioned in female bathrooms sometimes. And trans women who "pass" sail right in unchallenged.
But while bathrooms are segregated by gender expression, changing rooms, sports and rape crisis centres are segregated by biological sex. So a different conversation needs to be had there.
And yes, I'm always only referring to genuinely gender dysphoric people when I say trans. "Non-binary" people, and everybody else who likes to "dismantle categories" because they think it's "edgy", while giving no thought to the implications of their stupid, postmodernist games, can take a running jump.
Some good points in there, I take to heart the one about rape crisis centers over bathrooms.
Some countries only have one bathroom for everyone. Not here.
Love your final sentence.