I think the term trans woman is misleading and confusing to many. It should be TIM (trans identifying male). Irrespective of how much a man “passes” as a woman, due to surgery, hormones, etc, he is still no kind of woman. Language is important, and we find ourselves in this situation because of the consequences of not treating it as such…
I think the term trans woman is misleading and confusing to many. It should be TIM (trans identifying male). Irrespective of how much a man “passes” as a woman, due to surgery, hormones, etc, he is still no kind of woman. Language is important, and we find ourselves in this situation because of the consequences of not treating it as such. I can call my dog a trans cat, dress him up as such, but he is just a dressed up dog.
"Language is important, and we find ourselves in this situation because of the consequences of not treating it as such."
I agree. But I think the opposite end of the spectrum is just as impractical. There are lots of situations in life where we aren't absolutely precise about the language we use. Black people aren't black, white people aren't white, we call adoptive parents "parents" and Adam Sandler a "comedian."
The whole "TiM" thing is a reflection of how much trans activists have eroded the goodwill people have/had towards trans people. I understand that erosion, it's really hard to maintain equanimity once you've been in the online trenches for a while.
I just think it's important to bear in mind that most trans people are just out there living their lives. They're not making these insane demands. they're not perverts or rapists. In most cases, people would never know they're trans. Even in a weirdo like Willoughby's case, without prior knowledge, I think a lot of people would perceive him as a woman.
The main purpose of language is to communicate clearly, which isn't always the same as being perfectly scientifically accurate. The reason why "preferred" pronouns are an issue is precisely because language works best when we say what we honestly perceive, not what we're ideologically motivated to say. I think that cuts both ways.
You are correct. My goodwill toward trans women has eroded. I am much less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt these days. Which is sad. At heart, I am a humanist and wish for all people to thrive and enjoy the highest level of human rights we can muster. But, I will not allow well-being arbitrage to be the rule of the day. Intersectionality has led to the idea that some people deserve more rights than others - that in order for one group to enjoy "x" rights, another group must lose or reduce their rights. This, I will never support. In fact, I will actively fight against it.
Yep, absolutely. I understand why more trans people don't speak up, the discourse is unbelievably toxic, but I also think they should really consider why such vile misogynists end up being their spokespeople.
Yes, that is the troubling side of this. It feels like what happened to the Republican party. MAGA drowned out anyone willing to have a reasonable conversation on their side.
I know reasonable trans people, but they are never going to speak up.
While what you wrote is true, it is difficult for me. A military and engineering background is a place where ambiguity is intolerable. It can get people killed. Exception handling is crucial in software that does anything important. There are exceptions, and they must be treated as such. It is a mindset that spills over into everyday life.
But I do thank that we understand those cases where the inexactness is obvious. The trouble with trans speak is that it is purposefully disingenuous for the sake of an agenda.
I think you're right. If they'd been reasonable, level-headed people I think most of us would just say transman or transwoman and it would be understood that they're not the same as a bio man or woman. Instead the language has gotten hostile on both sides, and I too say trans-identified man now because no, they're not women and never will.
Interesting, as it is always, that trans-identified women stay out of the debate. I wonder why.
I think the term trans woman is misleading and confusing to many. It should be TIM (trans identifying male). Irrespective of how much a man “passes” as a woman, due to surgery, hormones, etc, he is still no kind of woman. Language is important, and we find ourselves in this situation because of the consequences of not treating it as such. I can call my dog a trans cat, dress him up as such, but he is just a dressed up dog.
"Language is important, and we find ourselves in this situation because of the consequences of not treating it as such."
I agree. But I think the opposite end of the spectrum is just as impractical. There are lots of situations in life where we aren't absolutely precise about the language we use. Black people aren't black, white people aren't white, we call adoptive parents "parents" and Adam Sandler a "comedian."
The whole "TiM" thing is a reflection of how much trans activists have eroded the goodwill people have/had towards trans people. I understand that erosion, it's really hard to maintain equanimity once you've been in the online trenches for a while.
I just think it's important to bear in mind that most trans people are just out there living their lives. They're not making these insane demands. they're not perverts or rapists. In most cases, people would never know they're trans. Even in a weirdo like Willoughby's case, without prior knowledge, I think a lot of people would perceive him as a woman.
The main purpose of language is to communicate clearly, which isn't always the same as being perfectly scientifically accurate. The reason why "preferred" pronouns are an issue is precisely because language works best when we say what we honestly perceive, not what we're ideologically motivated to say. I think that cuts both ways.
You are correct. My goodwill toward trans women has eroded. I am much less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt these days. Which is sad. At heart, I am a humanist and wish for all people to thrive and enjoy the highest level of human rights we can muster. But, I will not allow well-being arbitrage to be the rule of the day. Intersectionality has led to the idea that some people deserve more rights than others - that in order for one group to enjoy "x" rights, another group must lose or reduce their rights. This, I will never support. In fact, I will actively fight against it.
"Intersectionality has lead to the idea that some people deserve more rights than others"
Very succinctly put.
Thanks. Also, corrected my spelling error. Led, not lead. Typing too fast.
They would perceive him as a woman, maybe, until he opens his mouth. Such misogyny.
Yep, absolutely. I understand why more trans people don't speak up, the discourse is unbelievably toxic, but I also think they should really consider why such vile misogynists end up being their spokespeople.
Yes
Yes, that is the troubling side of this. It feels like what happened to the Republican party. MAGA drowned out anyone willing to have a reasonable conversation on their side.
I know reasonable trans people, but they are never going to speak up.
I knew several transsexuals in the USA before the “trans” fad. They didn’t say they were women and were adamantly uninterested in pronouns.
While what you wrote is true, it is difficult for me. A military and engineering background is a place where ambiguity is intolerable. It can get people killed. Exception handling is crucial in software that does anything important. There are exceptions, and they must be treated as such. It is a mindset that spills over into everyday life.
But I do thank that we understand those cases where the inexactness is obvious. The trouble with trans speak is that it is purposefully disingenuous for the sake of an agenda.
I think you're right. If they'd been reasonable, level-headed people I think most of us would just say transman or transwoman and it would be understood that they're not the same as a bio man or woman. Instead the language has gotten hostile on both sides, and I too say trans-identified man now because no, they're not women and never will.
Interesting, as it is always, that trans-identified women stay out of the debate. I wonder why.