Steve, you are on point with your discussion w/ Celine. Two points to that I think add nuance here:
(1) Not all biases are created equal. Humans are driven to make tribal associations and make them matter. AND humans have a perceptual system that by default attend to certain sensory inputs over others. e. g. if you traveled to a fore…
Steve, you are on point with your discussion w/ Celine. Two points to that I think add nuance here:
(1) Not all biases are created equal. Humans are driven to make tribal associations and make them matter. AND humans have a perceptual system that by default attend to certain sensory inputs over others. e. g. if you traveled to a foreign land where some folks treated you with great respect and others tried to kill you. Among the various differences observed you notice all folks were either dressed in all white or in all black. Likely you would attend to this difference before noticing the different shoes they were wearing, etc. So it is natural that skin tone would be a frequent attribute for random attribution of importance. as opposed to other visible differences. (and of course less visible differences would be even less likely to be selected.) (NOTE: I am merely explaining why this particular random attribute would be preferentially selected at important, I of course am not trying to argue that it actually IS important.)
(2) You are right to notice that capitalizing Black is a racist thing to do. Just understand, the majority of blacks that I have discussed this topic with, actually WANT to maintain this distinction. They view Blackness as a point of commonality as a key part of their identity.
The would NOT want to remove that part of their identity, further they see banding together with other blacks as an important power move which strengthens them and is a key part of SOLVING the injustices perpetrated against African Americans.
This is sort of a "fight fire with fire" kind of approach. I definitely agree with you, that using this approach does perpetuate racism itself, since it highlights and ensconces the centrality of this color distinction. Rarely do I get understanding of this unintended consequence. Occasionally I do managed to get acknowledgement of the unintended consequence, but even when I do get acknowledgement of this. The black listener is generally UNWILLING to part with this identity, nor part with having a black-based response to racism.
your thinking on this matter is singular in my experience. but 'birds of a feather' .... perhaps you have met and know others who feel as you do???
you should ask them if they would be ok just erasing their black identity. e.g. they still have their same tastes and friends, but now, no one even conceives of any of this as being connected to skin color... that is just erased as an identity. would they be ok with this. I think most would not.
Btw, I hold no judgement on this point. We all have identities that are more happenstance than essential. So who am I to judge another's identity? I am just NOTICING what each person is holding as central.
1. Yeah, your example makes sense. The real world just doesn't really map onto it though. Especially in the case of the white racists who enslaved and then segregated themselves from black people. What exactly were they afraid of? What did black people ever do to them? And why on Earth would whatever that was resonate even today? I'm not defending racism in either case, but at least many black people in America have a legitimate gripe about the way their ancestors were treated.
I just don't see being black as an identity. I like my skin, I wouldn't want to wake up tomorrow with different coloured skin, but it doesn't carry the weight it does for some other people (most people I know, black and otherwise, feel the same way. But as you say, birds of a feather...).
I don't think capitalising the "b" in "black" is racist. It's just stupid. It collectivises people who aren't a collective. It's like capitalising the "t" in "tall" or even the "g" in "gay."
- 100% agree on the legitimate gripe point. Indeed the biggest gripe is not the historical racism, but the racism & bias that is alive today.
- Yes, I have noticed that your view on being black as VERY unusual, AND at your best you can be extremely articulate. It is these two things together that got me to join your channel, and to contribute.
American society (and many African American sub communities) have a challenge:
- on the one hand, as a group, it is true that blacks are at a systematic disadvantage.
- Naturally this galvanizes and reinforces an identity among those oppressed.
- But blacks viewing themselves as importantly different, causes NON-blacks to view them as importantly different.
- Thus in the end, this identification response ends up perpetuating the importance of this identity.
NOTICE: I am not "blaming" blacks for white beliefs here, just noticing a natural cause and effect that is in play.
Your point of view is the anecdote:
- You are quick to acknowledge the many injustices that disproportionally affect blacks.
- Still you reject tying it to black itself, you notice that non-blacks (often to a lesser degree statistically) are also affected by the same injustices.
- Thus your frame the problem, and those to be helped in NON-racial terms.
- If it is done in this way, I think it can gain broader acceptance, so action can happen.
- But also it lessens the white black divide, since it notices whites that are on the disadvantage side and blacks on the advantage side. It makes many different splits.
- If all blacks and whites began framing problems as you see them, then two advantages would come:
(1) black as a critical identity would become less in the minds of all... which naturally would lessen all oppression based on that identity.
(2) shifting the discussion from us and them, to with and without is more likely to gain action from those in the 'with' category. After all, I am presently a 'with' but someday I might be a 'without', but while presently white, I will never be black. that is just 'not my crew' in the same way.
But I think the propagator of your perspective needs to come from a black person.
According to those who believe in Black identity, a non Black person has no authority to speak.
Now I know **YOU** reject this perspective, but that is irrelevant. If that is the listener's perspective, then I as a non-black can never legitimately present evidence to reject the perspective. The well is already poisoned. (if you know the name of that particular debating fallacy).
So you are in a unique position given your (1) color, (2) beliefs, and (3) articulate way with words.
what exactly to do with this uniqueness??? well I dunno! but it seems precious.
Steve, you are on point with your discussion w/ Celine. Two points to that I think add nuance here:
(1) Not all biases are created equal. Humans are driven to make tribal associations and make them matter. AND humans have a perceptual system that by default attend to certain sensory inputs over others. e. g. if you traveled to a foreign land where some folks treated you with great respect and others tried to kill you. Among the various differences observed you notice all folks were either dressed in all white or in all black. Likely you would attend to this difference before noticing the different shoes they were wearing, etc. So it is natural that skin tone would be a frequent attribute for random attribution of importance. as opposed to other visible differences. (and of course less visible differences would be even less likely to be selected.) (NOTE: I am merely explaining why this particular random attribute would be preferentially selected at important, I of course am not trying to argue that it actually IS important.)
(2) You are right to notice that capitalizing Black is a racist thing to do. Just understand, the majority of blacks that I have discussed this topic with, actually WANT to maintain this distinction. They view Blackness as a point of commonality as a key part of their identity.
The would NOT want to remove that part of their identity, further they see banding together with other blacks as an important power move which strengthens them and is a key part of SOLVING the injustices perpetrated against African Americans.
This is sort of a "fight fire with fire" kind of approach. I definitely agree with you, that using this approach does perpetuate racism itself, since it highlights and ensconces the centrality of this color distinction. Rarely do I get understanding of this unintended consequence. Occasionally I do managed to get acknowledgement of the unintended consequence, but even when I do get acknowledgement of this. The black listener is generally UNWILLING to part with this identity, nor part with having a black-based response to racism.
your thinking on this matter is singular in my experience. but 'birds of a feather' .... perhaps you have met and know others who feel as you do???
you should ask them if they would be ok just erasing their black identity. e.g. they still have their same tastes and friends, but now, no one even conceives of any of this as being connected to skin color... that is just erased as an identity. would they be ok with this. I think most would not.
Btw, I hold no judgement on this point. We all have identities that are more happenstance than essential. So who am I to judge another's identity? I am just NOTICING what each person is holding as central.
--d
(2)
1. Yeah, your example makes sense. The real world just doesn't really map onto it though. Especially in the case of the white racists who enslaved and then segregated themselves from black people. What exactly were they afraid of? What did black people ever do to them? And why on Earth would whatever that was resonate even today? I'm not defending racism in either case, but at least many black people in America have a legitimate gripe about the way their ancestors were treated.
2. Yeah, Pew did some research on this recently (https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2022/04/14/race-is-central-to-identity-for-black-americans-and-affects-how-they-connect-with-each-other/). Fully 76% of black people see being black as extremely or very important to how they see themselves. Somewhere in the recesses of my memory I remember seeing a similar question asked to white people and the percentage was waaaay lower.
I just don't see being black as an identity. I like my skin, I wouldn't want to wake up tomorrow with different coloured skin, but it doesn't carry the weight it does for some other people (most people I know, black and otherwise, feel the same way. But as you say, birds of a feather...).
I don't think capitalising the "b" in "black" is racist. It's just stupid. It collectivises people who aren't a collective. It's like capitalising the "t" in "tall" or even the "g" in "gay."
- 100% agree on the legitimate gripe point. Indeed the biggest gripe is not the historical racism, but the racism & bias that is alive today.
- Yes, I have noticed that your view on being black as VERY unusual, AND at your best you can be extremely articulate. It is these two things together that got me to join your channel, and to contribute.
American society (and many African American sub communities) have a challenge:
- on the one hand, as a group, it is true that blacks are at a systematic disadvantage.
- Naturally this galvanizes and reinforces an identity among those oppressed.
- But blacks viewing themselves as importantly different, causes NON-blacks to view them as importantly different.
- Thus in the end, this identification response ends up perpetuating the importance of this identity.
NOTICE: I am not "blaming" blacks for white beliefs here, just noticing a natural cause and effect that is in play.
Your point of view is the anecdote:
- You are quick to acknowledge the many injustices that disproportionally affect blacks.
- Still you reject tying it to black itself, you notice that non-blacks (often to a lesser degree statistically) are also affected by the same injustices.
- Thus your frame the problem, and those to be helped in NON-racial terms.
- If it is done in this way, I think it can gain broader acceptance, so action can happen.
- But also it lessens the white black divide, since it notices whites that are on the disadvantage side and blacks on the advantage side. It makes many different splits.
- If all blacks and whites began framing problems as you see them, then two advantages would come:
(1) black as a critical identity would become less in the minds of all... which naturally would lessen all oppression based on that identity.
(2) shifting the discussion from us and them, to with and without is more likely to gain action from those in the 'with' category. After all, I am presently a 'with' but someday I might be a 'without', but while presently white, I will never be black. that is just 'not my crew' in the same way.
But I think the propagator of your perspective needs to come from a black person.
According to those who believe in Black identity, a non Black person has no authority to speak.
Now I know **YOU** reject this perspective, but that is irrelevant. If that is the listener's perspective, then I as a non-black can never legitimately present evidence to reject the perspective. The well is already poisoned. (if you know the name of that particular debating fallacy).
So you are in a unique position given your (1) color, (2) beliefs, and (3) articulate way with words.
what exactly to do with this uniqueness??? well I dunno! but it seems precious.
Cheers!!