I can't express how much this irritates me. "Life began" billions of years ago in the primordial ocean. Are gametes dead? Do they acquire a mystical "life force" upon union? I don't share your determination, Steve, to find some way to respect nearly everyone, but the compulsive expression of idiocies like this …
I can't express how much this irritates me. "Life began" billions of years ago in the primordial ocean. Are gametes dead? Do they acquire a mystical "life force" upon union? I don't share your determination, Steve, to find some way to respect nearly everyone, but the compulsive expression of idiocies like this ensures I will never have cause to change my mind.
Second, I have zero moral qualms about abortion. I just don't see any issue for one simple reason: there is no consciousness being eliminated. I see vastly greater sin in euthanizing a healthy cat than in ending the life of a fetus that is months away from self-awareness, or even mindless taxic response. It is consciousness, experience, and thought, that is the fundamental immorality of murder, not the fact of its species. This is my firm belief.
Yet most people wouldn't have a moment of reflection at having a cat PTS because treatment costs a few more dollars.
In the end, "pro-life" is founded on "humans are special." Since I do not share that view (go to a mall or a bowling alley if you doubt), I find the "sanctity of human life" to be a religious absurdity. OK, I am not religious and I am savagely misanthropic but I have almost ever had reason to change my mind about either.
Legally. I have to accept five-minutes-before-birth, because that is a clear and clean division. Morally, not so much, not with the evidence that infants in the womb respond to sounds and to music. I would much rather all abortions were while the fetus has a tail.
But anyone who passionately opposes abortion and who would leave a pet to starve in the woods is someone I wouldn't throw a life preserver to.
"I have zero moral qualms about abortion. I just don't see any issue for one simple reason: there is no consciousness being eliminated."
Yeah, here's the sticky point for me and I think most people who are pro-choice but also kind of centrist on the issue. I completely agree with you that the issue of murder is about consciousness rather than the species. But consciousness is a pretty slippery concept.
I think most people would agree that a baby is conscious. And most would equally agree that a fertilised egg isn't. Something mysterious happens between those two points and I've never heard a good answer as to *when* it happens.
Morally speaking, I'd like to err on the side of "definitely not conscious" side of things (which is why I have no qualms about dismissing the "5 minutes before birth" people). But alongside that, I want there to be as much leeway as possible for women to control their destinies and their bodies.
Again, the frustrating thing is that Roe had all of this pretty well balanced in my opinion.
I am going to reveal something I don't talk about much.
I remember becoming self-aware. At this point I am remembering the remembering but there was one time when I was breast-feeding and crying when I suddenly had the thought, translating to words, "why am I crying?" A moment before I had been nothing but drives. Suddenly there was someone there. I was put on the floor and I crawled and began to lay down memories.
I am not making this up. I clearly remember awakening to self-awareness. I won't call it consciousness.
When I search for fMRI (functional MRI) and fetuses, I get the impression that your magic consciousness point is around 4-5 months, depending upon exactly what parts of the brain a particular study is examining.
Not to badmouth my Christian anti-abortion crusader friend but it is interesting that when he was in the Navy he served in a nuclear submarine with a mission, if ordered by the government, to launch nuclear missiles to wherever.
Nukes are not a precision, they kill everyone in their radius, including pregnant women. I don't know if that generated cognitive dissonance in him. Thou shalt not kill unless the government says so.
"life begins at conception"
I can't express how much this irritates me. "Life began" billions of years ago in the primordial ocean. Are gametes dead? Do they acquire a mystical "life force" upon union? I don't share your determination, Steve, to find some way to respect nearly everyone, but the compulsive expression of idiocies like this ensures I will never have cause to change my mind.
Second, I have zero moral qualms about abortion. I just don't see any issue for one simple reason: there is no consciousness being eliminated. I see vastly greater sin in euthanizing a healthy cat than in ending the life of a fetus that is months away from self-awareness, or even mindless taxic response. It is consciousness, experience, and thought, that is the fundamental immorality of murder, not the fact of its species. This is my firm belief.
Yet most people wouldn't have a moment of reflection at having a cat PTS because treatment costs a few more dollars.
In the end, "pro-life" is founded on "humans are special." Since I do not share that view (go to a mall or a bowling alley if you doubt), I find the "sanctity of human life" to be a religious absurdity. OK, I am not religious and I am savagely misanthropic but I have almost ever had reason to change my mind about either.
Legally. I have to accept five-minutes-before-birth, because that is a clear and clean division. Morally, not so much, not with the evidence that infants in the womb respond to sounds and to music. I would much rather all abortions were while the fetus has a tail.
But anyone who passionately opposes abortion and who would leave a pet to starve in the woods is someone I wouldn't throw a life preserver to.
"I have zero moral qualms about abortion. I just don't see any issue for one simple reason: there is no consciousness being eliminated."
Yeah, here's the sticky point for me and I think most people who are pro-choice but also kind of centrist on the issue. I completely agree with you that the issue of murder is about consciousness rather than the species. But consciousness is a pretty slippery concept.
I think most people would agree that a baby is conscious. And most would equally agree that a fertilised egg isn't. Something mysterious happens between those two points and I've never heard a good answer as to *when* it happens.
Morally speaking, I'd like to err on the side of "definitely not conscious" side of things (which is why I have no qualms about dismissing the "5 minutes before birth" people). But alongside that, I want there to be as much leeway as possible for women to control their destinies and their bodies.
Again, the frustrating thing is that Roe had all of this pretty well balanced in my opinion.
I am going to reveal something I don't talk about much.
I remember becoming self-aware. At this point I am remembering the remembering but there was one time when I was breast-feeding and crying when I suddenly had the thought, translating to words, "why am I crying?" A moment before I had been nothing but drives. Suddenly there was someone there. I was put on the floor and I crawled and began to lay down memories.
I am not making this up. I clearly remember awakening to self-awareness. I won't call it consciousness.
When I search for fMRI (functional MRI) and fetuses, I get the impression that your magic consciousness point is around 4-5 months, depending upon exactly what parts of the brain a particular study is examining.
Not to badmouth my Christian anti-abortion crusader friend but it is interesting that when he was in the Navy he served in a nuclear submarine with a mission, if ordered by the government, to launch nuclear missiles to wherever.
Nukes are not a precision, they kill everyone in their radius, including pregnant women. I don't know if that generated cognitive dissonance in him. Thou shalt not kill unless the government says so.
Partitioning. How many pastors who rant against gays from the pulpit do you think ever reflect on their hypocrisy as they pay for male prostitutes?
Love your brutal honesty here. It's refreshing.