"OK, let's do our very best to reset as you say. I'm enthusiastically agreeing. I will try to stop caveating, and we will both make a conscious effort to err on the side of assuming best intentions and being polite and generous - and we'll both attempt to avoid seeming condescending, OK?
Practice topic: Are white women the primary benefic…
"OK, let's do our very best to reset as you say. I'm enthusiastically agreeing. I will try to stop caveating, and we will both make a conscious effort to err on the side of assuming best intentions and being polite and generous - and we'll both attempt to avoid seeming condescending, OK?
Practice topic: Are white women the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action? Let's do our best." And later "Let's have a civil and productive conversation."
I'm smiling as I write this, I'm not annoyed at all, and I certainly don't think you're doing this on purpose, but the above is a great example of the tone I'm talking about. Do you see how this might read as:
"Let me reassert that we'll both attempt to do the thing you've already said you were going to do. OK?"
Or:
"Let's have a civil and productive discussion. Even though you've just said that you're going to attempt do that in future."
This is one aspect of the caveating I'm talking about. Comments like these feel as if I'm being gently guided by the hand by an encouraging parent because I can't handle a civil discussion without that guidance. Which doesn't feel so great coming from a stranger on the internet when you're an adult. As I said, I'm going to do my best to ignore this in future, but I'm trying to point out that you might be contributing to the reactions that are frustrating you.
Steve, this experience is nearly unique in my life.
I realize that I've on occasion expressed frustration at how my words (and those of many others, even you) can be twisted by others, no matter how carefully we attempt to avoid that - whether in honest misunderstanding or bad faith pretense of misunderstanding. I'm sure you have observed the same thing.
However, that is NOT what happens between us here. I highly value your insights and trust your sincerity and intelligence. I almost never in my life have had the kind of dynamic I've had here with anybody else with those characteristics. I can see how one might conflate the two, but my occasional experience of impatience with foolishness or bad faith, and the way you and I seem to trigger each other, are quite distinct for me. And the experience with you is a rare opportunity for me.
I think the issues between us are more due to our similarities. That's one reason (besides my respect for your writing) that I've bothered to respond to these issues. I see it as something I can learn from, a mirror. Not in the sense that you have sometimes seemed to take it - that it's your mission to repeatedly tell me what's wrong with me. I'm getting better at ignoring the tone of that as a distraction from the possible learning; I can see now that I have sometimes done poorly at that in the past. Being defensive does not serve me. The learning I'm getting about myself is more from your need to treat me the way you do, and from your not being aware of that - I see myself in that, I see that I have some similar flaws. I do not feel superior; there is no flaw I've observed in you that I do not see in myself. And if we can be civil, I can learn from that.
One of the differences I observe in myself, is that when you treat me condescendingly (as I perceive it), it got under my skin more than usual precisely because of the high regard I have for you. It's like being harshly criticized by somebody whose esteem one values, not just some internet rando. That's not a frequent experience for me. It has taken some reflection to observe this in myself.
Whether you learn something about yourself and your part (or perceive any opportunity to do so) is up to you and not my concern. I am not trying to fix you.
> "Comments like these feel as if I'm being gently guided by the hand by an encouraging parent because I can't handle a civil discussion without that guidance. "
I hear that you feel that way, and I can see how that could be unpleasant. That however is not the emotion nor intellectual perspective I experience, however. I've heard your interpretation,
can I share mine? The comments you apparently interpret as talking down to you, were not so intended. I meant to affirm our mutual positive intentions. We are trying to break some habits, and in my life, when I'm trying to do that, it has been helpful to keep reaffirming the new perspective as part of avoiding falling into a familiar rut. It's easy to slip into defensiveness. I am speaking as much to myself as to you, and trying to be allies in making a shift. My reflection is not turning up, so far anyway, the kind of talking down (parent to child, etc) energy which you appear to be reacting to
And the reaction you have to the words from me (in my previous post), is very unusual in my life. Really. In that mode (not speaking about every mode in which I write, sometimes I am less conscious and more reactive), most people hear me as reaching out as an equal, seeking a mutually respectful interchange between imperfect but well intentioned people. My experience is that it usually de-escalates and reassures. It has worked *many times*.
In this case, something else is going on. It feels to me thus: if there is any possible way to interpret my words as talking down to you, you will seize upon that interpretation and not give consideration or weight to any more benign interpretation. And that you are expecting me to phrase things in ways that cannot possibly be so interpreted, and holding me responsible for your reactions. I don't see much slack, or presumption of good will and intention, in your choice among plausible interpretations of my words.
SQJ> "Do you see how this might read as: "Let me reassert that we'll both attempt to do the thing you've already said you were going to do. OK?"
That strikes me as the most negative interpretation possible, not as a generous one. I can see how my words could be so interpreted, but it doesn't seem to be the only possible interpretation, the most accurate interpretation, or the most generous one. It seems as if it's looking for something negative, rather than (even tentatively) assuming the best.
And in light of what I said about mirroring, at this point I'm seeing that as an opportunity to reflect upon the times when *I* may be unconsciously looking for a putdown (whether or not that is true of you now). Right now, I'm feeling pretty reflective and humble. But other times in some of our interactions, I'm realizing that I was feeling defensive and attacked without being very conscious of that, and that unconsciously influenced the tone and framing of my responses. I'm owning that, not blaming you for it.
And I apologize for my lack of awareness in those times. I can understand how those reactions may have crystalized some of your current propensity (as I perceive it) towards dark interpretations of even my most conciliatory outreaches. You have some reason for that, I was not being conscious enough.
But I'm ready to change that. I am sincerely ready for a reset and reframing. I don't think the "reset" has yet penetrated fully for us, there are some priors still influencing our interactions, influencing our interpretations of each other (we are humans after all). But I'm feeling patient with us. We can dig ourselves out. I'm becoming less reactive (albeit always imperfect).
It would help if you could read my words a second time when you feel I'm talking down to you, and ask "How would this land if I believed PGBR was trying to connect as an equal?". Or at least think about more than one interpretation, including some benign ones.
"if there is any possible way to interpret my words as talking down to you, you will seize upon that interpretation and not give consideration or weight to any more benign interpretation."
Let me start by saying that on reflection, I shouldn't have added that bit about "the reactions that are frustrating you." I see how that could easily be interpreted as a snipe. I apologise.
I think a significant part of this reset, at least for me, will be to stop analysing past disagreements or misinterpretations. We obviously have our own ways of communicating and view the words we read through our own lenses, so as you say here, the best way forward is just to assume good intent from each other.
Even if I wasn't already convinced of your sincerity, which I was, your reply here underlines your desire to move forward more positively. A desire which I absolutely share.
My only real quibble is with the quote above. I can promise you that there is no intent or desire to interpret your words as talking down to me. And I don't think the interpretation has anything to do with anything in our past. I believe I'd interpret them the same way even if this was the first time I'd seen them and they were directed at somebody else. Again, to be clear, not as deliberately condescending, they just come across as kind of patronising. I 100% believe that isn't your intention, and that settles the matter as far as I'm concerned.
Having all your interactions with somebody be as words on a screen removes all of the nuance that would, I'm sure, immediately resolve these misunderstandings. And often, we don't even write the same way we speak, so more scope for misunderstanding presents itself. I really appreciate your reply. If you're happy to, I'm ready to close the door on this and be internet buds.
I have great appreciation for you and the products of your amazing mind. Even if I disagree at times, much more often I agree with at least the main points, maybe everything.
(Alas, I do realize that I spend more words on trying to describe and explain the disagreements, while just briefly noting the agreements - so it could seem as if I'm mostly at odds with you. It's more that when I agree, there us usually much less to say! If you nailed it; I don't have to go over that point by point; at most I might add some additional facets at times. But if I disagree, even with 1/20 of what you wrote, I try to explain *why*, the shape of it. I can see how that might give a distorted view).
I would be honored to be internet buds. I'd likely enjoy being in person buds even more if you were local, with the greater richness of communication compared to "words on a screen", as you say.
"OK, let's do our very best to reset as you say. I'm enthusiastically agreeing. I will try to stop caveating, and we will both make a conscious effort to err on the side of assuming best intentions and being polite and generous - and we'll both attempt to avoid seeming condescending, OK?
Practice topic: Are white women the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action? Let's do our best." And later "Let's have a civil and productive conversation."
I'm smiling as I write this, I'm not annoyed at all, and I certainly don't think you're doing this on purpose, but the above is a great example of the tone I'm talking about. Do you see how this might read as:
"Let me reassert that we'll both attempt to do the thing you've already said you were going to do. OK?"
Or:
"Let's have a civil and productive discussion. Even though you've just said that you're going to attempt do that in future."
This is one aspect of the caveating I'm talking about. Comments like these feel as if I'm being gently guided by the hand by an encouraging parent because I can't handle a civil discussion without that guidance. Which doesn't feel so great coming from a stranger on the internet when you're an adult. As I said, I'm going to do my best to ignore this in future, but I'm trying to point out that you might be contributing to the reactions that are frustrating you.
Steve, this experience is nearly unique in my life.
I realize that I've on occasion expressed frustration at how my words (and those of many others, even you) can be twisted by others, no matter how carefully we attempt to avoid that - whether in honest misunderstanding or bad faith pretense of misunderstanding. I'm sure you have observed the same thing.
However, that is NOT what happens between us here. I highly value your insights and trust your sincerity and intelligence. I almost never in my life have had the kind of dynamic I've had here with anybody else with those characteristics. I can see how one might conflate the two, but my occasional experience of impatience with foolishness or bad faith, and the way you and I seem to trigger each other, are quite distinct for me. And the experience with you is a rare opportunity for me.
I think the issues between us are more due to our similarities. That's one reason (besides my respect for your writing) that I've bothered to respond to these issues. I see it as something I can learn from, a mirror. Not in the sense that you have sometimes seemed to take it - that it's your mission to repeatedly tell me what's wrong with me. I'm getting better at ignoring the tone of that as a distraction from the possible learning; I can see now that I have sometimes done poorly at that in the past. Being defensive does not serve me. The learning I'm getting about myself is more from your need to treat me the way you do, and from your not being aware of that - I see myself in that, I see that I have some similar flaws. I do not feel superior; there is no flaw I've observed in you that I do not see in myself. And if we can be civil, I can learn from that.
One of the differences I observe in myself, is that when you treat me condescendingly (as I perceive it), it got under my skin more than usual precisely because of the high regard I have for you. It's like being harshly criticized by somebody whose esteem one values, not just some internet rando. That's not a frequent experience for me. It has taken some reflection to observe this in myself.
Whether you learn something about yourself and your part (or perceive any opportunity to do so) is up to you and not my concern. I am not trying to fix you.
> "Comments like these feel as if I'm being gently guided by the hand by an encouraging parent because I can't handle a civil discussion without that guidance. "
I hear that you feel that way, and I can see how that could be unpleasant. That however is not the emotion nor intellectual perspective I experience, however. I've heard your interpretation,
can I share mine? The comments you apparently interpret as talking down to you, were not so intended. I meant to affirm our mutual positive intentions. We are trying to break some habits, and in my life, when I'm trying to do that, it has been helpful to keep reaffirming the new perspective as part of avoiding falling into a familiar rut. It's easy to slip into defensiveness. I am speaking as much to myself as to you, and trying to be allies in making a shift. My reflection is not turning up, so far anyway, the kind of talking down (parent to child, etc) energy which you appear to be reacting to
And the reaction you have to the words from me (in my previous post), is very unusual in my life. Really. In that mode (not speaking about every mode in which I write, sometimes I am less conscious and more reactive), most people hear me as reaching out as an equal, seeking a mutually respectful interchange between imperfect but well intentioned people. My experience is that it usually de-escalates and reassures. It has worked *many times*.
In this case, something else is going on. It feels to me thus: if there is any possible way to interpret my words as talking down to you, you will seize upon that interpretation and not give consideration or weight to any more benign interpretation. And that you are expecting me to phrase things in ways that cannot possibly be so interpreted, and holding me responsible for your reactions. I don't see much slack, or presumption of good will and intention, in your choice among plausible interpretations of my words.
SQJ> "Do you see how this might read as: "Let me reassert that we'll both attempt to do the thing you've already said you were going to do. OK?"
That strikes me as the most negative interpretation possible, not as a generous one. I can see how my words could be so interpreted, but it doesn't seem to be the only possible interpretation, the most accurate interpretation, or the most generous one. It seems as if it's looking for something negative, rather than (even tentatively) assuming the best.
And in light of what I said about mirroring, at this point I'm seeing that as an opportunity to reflect upon the times when *I* may be unconsciously looking for a putdown (whether or not that is true of you now). Right now, I'm feeling pretty reflective and humble. But other times in some of our interactions, I'm realizing that I was feeling defensive and attacked without being very conscious of that, and that unconsciously influenced the tone and framing of my responses. I'm owning that, not blaming you for it.
And I apologize for my lack of awareness in those times. I can understand how those reactions may have crystalized some of your current propensity (as I perceive it) towards dark interpretations of even my most conciliatory outreaches. You have some reason for that, I was not being conscious enough.
But I'm ready to change that. I am sincerely ready for a reset and reframing. I don't think the "reset" has yet penetrated fully for us, there are some priors still influencing our interactions, influencing our interpretations of each other (we are humans after all). But I'm feeling patient with us. We can dig ourselves out. I'm becoming less reactive (albeit always imperfect).
It would help if you could read my words a second time when you feel I'm talking down to you, and ask "How would this land if I believed PGBR was trying to connect as an equal?". Or at least think about more than one interpretation, including some benign ones.
Warmly, PGBR
"if there is any possible way to interpret my words as talking down to you, you will seize upon that interpretation and not give consideration or weight to any more benign interpretation."
Let me start by saying that on reflection, I shouldn't have added that bit about "the reactions that are frustrating you." I see how that could easily be interpreted as a snipe. I apologise.
I think a significant part of this reset, at least for me, will be to stop analysing past disagreements or misinterpretations. We obviously have our own ways of communicating and view the words we read through our own lenses, so as you say here, the best way forward is just to assume good intent from each other.
Even if I wasn't already convinced of your sincerity, which I was, your reply here underlines your desire to move forward more positively. A desire which I absolutely share.
My only real quibble is with the quote above. I can promise you that there is no intent or desire to interpret your words as talking down to me. And I don't think the interpretation has anything to do with anything in our past. I believe I'd interpret them the same way even if this was the first time I'd seen them and they were directed at somebody else. Again, to be clear, not as deliberately condescending, they just come across as kind of patronising. I 100% believe that isn't your intention, and that settles the matter as far as I'm concerned.
Having all your interactions with somebody be as words on a screen removes all of the nuance that would, I'm sure, immediately resolve these misunderstandings. And often, we don't even write the same way we speak, so more scope for misunderstanding presents itself. I really appreciate your reply. If you're happy to, I'm ready to close the door on this and be internet buds.
Absolutely.
I have great appreciation for you and the products of your amazing mind. Even if I disagree at times, much more often I agree with at least the main points, maybe everything.
(Alas, I do realize that I spend more words on trying to describe and explain the disagreements, while just briefly noting the agreements - so it could seem as if I'm mostly at odds with you. It's more that when I agree, there us usually much less to say! If you nailed it; I don't have to go over that point by point; at most I might add some additional facets at times. But if I disagree, even with 1/20 of what you wrote, I try to explain *why*, the shape of it. I can see how that might give a distorted view).
I would be honored to be internet buds. I'd likely enjoy being in person buds even more if you were local, with the greater richness of communication compared to "words on a screen", as you say.
If we stumble, let's pick ourselves up.