I would like to address a point you made to me on the other thread(s) where discussion of Andrew Tate being attractive to young men because supposedly there's no one else out there saying the things they need to hear (albeit mixed with misogyny). My stance was that the misogyny was what draws these young men, since there are countless mo…
I would like to address a point you made to me on the other thread(s) where discussion of Andrew Tate being attractive to young men because supposedly there's no one else out there saying the things they need to hear (albeit mixed with misogyny). My stance was that the misogyny was what draws these young men, since there are countless motivational speakers and life coaches online inspiring boys and men to improve themselves and live their best lives (without misogyny) that these people could choose to tune into instead.
You insinuated that I must not really care about boys and men. On the contrary I am currently working with a small group of the same to acquire land where they can live and work, commune style. Where they can form real life bonds and create a life long brotherhood. All these years the Manosphere spent whining and fighting online, they could have created, dozens, hundreds, of such communities across this country, Maybe even thousands around the world. Nothing positive and practical for boys and men has come out of the Manosphere and we certainly never saw Tate do anything for us.
This idea that mens' problems are everyone's problems, including women, is not acceptable. Sure, women who are closely related to boys and men, like their mothers, are responsible to a certain degree to care for them, but at some point OTHER MEN have to step up and provide friendship and brotherhood for each other. Real life bonds. Real life community. This isn't women's responsibility.
Tate, and here's where "identity" comes in, is currently playing the Muslim card. Even before his "conversion" to Islam he was boldly declaring that "Islam fixes all social problems." So now he's aggressively pushing "the ummah" on his viewers,, falsely giving the impression to naive fans that "here lies true brotherhood and community for you and you will get your young, hot, submissive wife (or wives, up to 4) and live alpha ever after".
Young, naive men, lacking in identity and who have no prior knowledge of Islam are falling for it.
But how long will Tate "identify" as a Muslim? I give 2 years.
"My stance was that the misogyny was what draws these young men, since there are countless motivational speakers and life coaches online inspiring boys and men to improve themselves and live their best lives"
Yeah, as I remember, I asked you who these people were. Because I can't think of anybody with anything close to Andrew Tate's platform except Jordan Peterson. Peterson is a better, but definitely not good option. Especially recently. And as I said, most of the people I *can* think of who try to speak about men's issues are derided as misogynists and creeps and attacked by so-called feminists (If I didn't mention her already, Cassie Jaye is a classic example of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY&t=766s).
So yeah, who are these "countless people"? It's easy to say they're out there, but where? And are they being heard by young people? Sadly, in today's information landscape, being controversial and stirring up people's emotions is a shortcut to popularity. The sensible, considered people do get heard, but it's a longer road. And this goes at least quadruple for the information young people, men and women, are exposed to.
I don't know whether you care about men and boys. I'm sure that there are specific men and boys who you care about. But I know that the way you talk about men and boys in general suggests you don't (and don't want to) think about them very carefully. You seem very happy to conflate masculinity in general and the "manosphere." And in most cases, one has nothing to do with the other.
Your criticism of Tate are spot on though. And yeah, lots of "influencers are doing the reborn Muslim/Christian thing at the moment. I've never in my life said a word in defence of Tate. He's a parasite taking advantage of the struggles and insecurities of young men (not to mention the women he's taking advantage of). But the *reason* it works is not (simply or even mostly) misogyny.
It's because there are lots of young men out there who are genuinely struggling in life. Romantically, socially, psychologically, in finding purpose. And lots of people making simplistic, dismissive and empathy-free assertions about why that is. It's because there are people who find it "unacceptable" to suggest that every adult should be trying to help young people, regardless of what they have between their legs, to grow up happy and loved and mentally healthy. In an environment where any group of people feel that their problems aren't taken seriously, they're more susceptible to grifters and their terrible ideas.
I never said it was women's responsibility to fix this. But I don't think you, or anybody else, wants a society where women's problems are siloed off to be dealt with just by women and men's problems are filed off to be dealt with just by men. This would be an insane and awful society. Instead, I'd encourage everybody to take the next generation's problems seriously. And to think about them as carefully as they can.
Google and Youtube search box with "motivational speaker" can help you find a lot of these people. It's been years since I tuned in but the internet is crawling with them. Tate paid people to manipulate the algorithm which shot him to the top and that's why out of nowhere his clips were popping up.
I see the problems young men and women are facing today as natural outcomes of Capitalism. But people want to blame them on Feminism instead. Also to note, if you travel around the world there are many countries where unmarried young adults who are not "dating" don't "feel lonely" because social life is comprised mainly of immediate and extended family members. One has to ask why "incels" are not socializing with their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, nieces and nephews? In other countries young people experience joy from doing so. Why not in the USA or similar countries? There are nursing and old age homes here with lonely elders who would LOVE to be visited by these young men. Why isn't that happening? At some point, at least for some (I think many) loneliness becomes a lifestyle choice. Go visit family members. Volunteer locally with kids, elders, the homeless. I don't get this sitting alone in a room with closed curtains and whining about "loneliness" all day on the internet. If someone needs a few months to vent, fine. But at some point we have to ask why they are not making connections with other humans in need and volunteering in their towns.
“ Google and Youtube search box with "motivational speaker" can help you find a lot of these people”
Come on now, this is silly. The fact that there are lots of motivational speakers in the world does not mean there are lots of people speaking accurately and empathetic ally to young men about the problems they face.
“ One has to ask why "incels" are not socializing with their parents,”
One has to ask why the only way you can conceive of struggling young men is that they’re incels or part of the “manosphere.” I know the clue is in your name, but come on. How are you so comfortable embracing such a one dimensional view?
I’m right in the middle of writing an article that starts with the story of Elliott Rodger. I’m familiar with incels. If you think those freaks represent young men, you’ve lost the plot.
All that said, yes, Dr. K is absolutely fantastic. I really admire him and the work he’s doing. Not familiar with Hamza. But yes, better than Tate isn’t too high a bar. I would love to see more people like Dr K out there. Truly. Sadly, I think the reason his audience isn’t ten times larger is just that he doesn’t attest the drama that kids of all ages and sexes are drawn to.
Incel just means involuntarily celibate, not necessarily homicidal maniac. The media keeps pushing out this narrative of "young men are sexless, young men are lonely" and that's the root of their issues. That's why I refer to "incels" a lot. Hamza is far above Tate as he's not a criminal and doesn't spew hateful rhetoric .
"Incel just means involuntarily celibate, not necessarily homicidal maniac."
This is a bit like arguing that Nazi just means national socialist, no? Incel is widely used in a pejorative sense to describe weak, bitter, failed men whose self-loathing has turned--or is just about to turn--into a deep hatred of women.
It functions in exactly the same way as terms like "Karen" and "feminazi" and "woke"; to collectivise a bunch of people to avoid the danger of thinking about them seriously and accidentally humanising them.
Maybe you're in a different bubble to me, but I very rarely see the narrative you're describing. The news media very rarely talks about young men in any meaningful, empathetic way. And even more rarely in a positive or productive way.
Incels in the online world have only themselves to blame for their bad reputation considering that forums are chockful of comments and posts praising Eliot Rodger and other killers, what to speak of the general hateful rants about "foids" and others.
The term "incel" was first coined over a decade ago by a WOMAN (if I recall correctly, a lesbian) who used it to describe her situation.
The news media are churning out a lot of pieces about the "epidemic" of loneliness and, get this, sexlessness, of young men today. Especially conservatives and the right wing somehow think sexlessness amongst unmarried men is now somehow a problem.
“Incels in the online world have only themselves to blame for their bad reputation”
I’m not sure how to make this point any clearer than I already have. I’m not defending “incels.” I’m not speaking up for the people idolising Rodger or going on hateful rants about women. I’m trying, in what feels increasingly like a futile effort, to help you see that the vast majority of young men don’t fall into this category.
The commonly understood meanings of words change. “Woke” didn’t always mean what it generally means today. Nor did “Karen.”
I’ve not seen the pieces you’re talking about. Again, we probably get our news from different algorithms. But whether or not you think it’s silly, sexual (and the attendant romantic), relationships are really important to most young men. The changing rules of these relationships, brought on by many factors including the rise of online dating and the unrealistic expectations of social media, are extremely difficult for many men to navigate. And are worth talking about as far as they’re concerned (especially given that men are still almost exclusively *expected* to navigate them).
I strongly suspect the way conservative media is talking about it isn’t the way I’d like to see it talked about. But that doesn’t make the whole issue meaningless.
"I’ve not seen the pieces you’re talking about. Again, we probably get our news from different algorithms. "
I'm not talking about "news" I'm talking about incel forums.
"the vast majority of young men don’t fall into this category."
I work with some to help them develop male friendships, communal living spaces, bond with their families of origin as well as volunteer in their neighborhoods. These are things these young men need and they are doable. Romantic relationships may never happen for many of them and they need to acknowledge that, move on, and create relationships where they can instead of living in a fantasy world that devolves into depression.
Well, he's not a motivational speaker, he's a therapist, but he often focuses on men's issues, incels, etc., and a lot of viewers say they've been helped by him. Dr. K The Healthy Gamer;
I would like to address a point you made to me on the other thread(s) where discussion of Andrew Tate being attractive to young men because supposedly there's no one else out there saying the things they need to hear (albeit mixed with misogyny). My stance was that the misogyny was what draws these young men, since there are countless motivational speakers and life coaches online inspiring boys and men to improve themselves and live their best lives (without misogyny) that these people could choose to tune into instead.
You insinuated that I must not really care about boys and men. On the contrary I am currently working with a small group of the same to acquire land where they can live and work, commune style. Where they can form real life bonds and create a life long brotherhood. All these years the Manosphere spent whining and fighting online, they could have created, dozens, hundreds, of such communities across this country, Maybe even thousands around the world. Nothing positive and practical for boys and men has come out of the Manosphere and we certainly never saw Tate do anything for us.
This idea that mens' problems are everyone's problems, including women, is not acceptable. Sure, women who are closely related to boys and men, like their mothers, are responsible to a certain degree to care for them, but at some point OTHER MEN have to step up and provide friendship and brotherhood for each other. Real life bonds. Real life community. This isn't women's responsibility.
Tate, and here's where "identity" comes in, is currently playing the Muslim card. Even before his "conversion" to Islam he was boldly declaring that "Islam fixes all social problems." So now he's aggressively pushing "the ummah" on his viewers,, falsely giving the impression to naive fans that "here lies true brotherhood and community for you and you will get your young, hot, submissive wife (or wives, up to 4) and live alpha ever after".
Young, naive men, lacking in identity and who have no prior knowledge of Islam are falling for it.
But how long will Tate "identify" as a Muslim? I give 2 years.
"My stance was that the misogyny was what draws these young men, since there are countless motivational speakers and life coaches online inspiring boys and men to improve themselves and live their best lives"
Yeah, as I remember, I asked you who these people were. Because I can't think of anybody with anything close to Andrew Tate's platform except Jordan Peterson. Peterson is a better, but definitely not good option. Especially recently. And as I said, most of the people I *can* think of who try to speak about men's issues are derided as misogynists and creeps and attacked by so-called feminists (If I didn't mention her already, Cassie Jaye is a classic example of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY&t=766s).
So yeah, who are these "countless people"? It's easy to say they're out there, but where? And are they being heard by young people? Sadly, in today's information landscape, being controversial and stirring up people's emotions is a shortcut to popularity. The sensible, considered people do get heard, but it's a longer road. And this goes at least quadruple for the information young people, men and women, are exposed to.
I don't know whether you care about men and boys. I'm sure that there are specific men and boys who you care about. But I know that the way you talk about men and boys in general suggests you don't (and don't want to) think about them very carefully. You seem very happy to conflate masculinity in general and the "manosphere." And in most cases, one has nothing to do with the other.
Your criticism of Tate are spot on though. And yeah, lots of "influencers are doing the reborn Muslim/Christian thing at the moment. I've never in my life said a word in defence of Tate. He's a parasite taking advantage of the struggles and insecurities of young men (not to mention the women he's taking advantage of). But the *reason* it works is not (simply or even mostly) misogyny.
It's because there are lots of young men out there who are genuinely struggling in life. Romantically, socially, psychologically, in finding purpose. And lots of people making simplistic, dismissive and empathy-free assertions about why that is. It's because there are people who find it "unacceptable" to suggest that every adult should be trying to help young people, regardless of what they have between their legs, to grow up happy and loved and mentally healthy. In an environment where any group of people feel that their problems aren't taken seriously, they're more susceptible to grifters and their terrible ideas.
I never said it was women's responsibility to fix this. But I don't think you, or anybody else, wants a society where women's problems are siloed off to be dealt with just by women and men's problems are filed off to be dealt with just by men. This would be an insane and awful society. Instead, I'd encourage everybody to take the next generation's problems seriously. And to think about them as carefully as they can.
Google and Youtube search box with "motivational speaker" can help you find a lot of these people. It's been years since I tuned in but the internet is crawling with them. Tate paid people to manipulate the algorithm which shot him to the top and that's why out of nowhere his clips were popping up.
I see the problems young men and women are facing today as natural outcomes of Capitalism. But people want to blame them on Feminism instead. Also to note, if you travel around the world there are many countries where unmarried young adults who are not "dating" don't "feel lonely" because social life is comprised mainly of immediate and extended family members. One has to ask why "incels" are not socializing with their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, nieces and nephews? In other countries young people experience joy from doing so. Why not in the USA or similar countries? There are nursing and old age homes here with lonely elders who would LOVE to be visited by these young men. Why isn't that happening? At some point, at least for some (I think many) loneliness becomes a lifestyle choice. Go visit family members. Volunteer locally with kids, elders, the homeless. I don't get this sitting alone in a room with closed curtains and whining about "loneliness" all day on the internet. If someone needs a few months to vent, fine. But at some point we have to ask why they are not making connections with other humans in need and volunteering in their towns.
“ Google and Youtube search box with "motivational speaker" can help you find a lot of these people”
Come on now, this is silly. The fact that there are lots of motivational speakers in the world does not mean there are lots of people speaking accurately and empathetic ally to young men about the problems they face.
“ One has to ask why "incels" are not socializing with their parents,”
One has to ask why the only way you can conceive of struggling young men is that they’re incels or part of the “manosphere.” I know the clue is in your name, but come on. How are you so comfortable embracing such a one dimensional view?
I’m right in the middle of writing an article that starts with the story of Elliott Rodger. I’m familiar with incels. If you think those freaks represent young men, you’ve lost the plot.
All that said, yes, Dr. K is absolutely fantastic. I really admire him and the work he’s doing. Not familiar with Hamza. But yes, better than Tate isn’t too high a bar. I would love to see more people like Dr K out there. Truly. Sadly, I think the reason his audience isn’t ten times larger is just that he doesn’t attest the drama that kids of all ages and sexes are drawn to.
Incel just means involuntarily celibate, not necessarily homicidal maniac. The media keeps pushing out this narrative of "young men are sexless, young men are lonely" and that's the root of their issues. That's why I refer to "incels" a lot. Hamza is far above Tate as he's not a criminal and doesn't spew hateful rhetoric .
"Incel just means involuntarily celibate, not necessarily homicidal maniac."
This is a bit like arguing that Nazi just means national socialist, no? Incel is widely used in a pejorative sense to describe weak, bitter, failed men whose self-loathing has turned--or is just about to turn--into a deep hatred of women.
It functions in exactly the same way as terms like "Karen" and "feminazi" and "woke"; to collectivise a bunch of people to avoid the danger of thinking about them seriously and accidentally humanising them.
Maybe you're in a different bubble to me, but I very rarely see the narrative you're describing. The news media very rarely talks about young men in any meaningful, empathetic way. And even more rarely in a positive or productive way.
Incels in the online world have only themselves to blame for their bad reputation considering that forums are chockful of comments and posts praising Eliot Rodger and other killers, what to speak of the general hateful rants about "foids" and others.
The term "incel" was first coined over a decade ago by a WOMAN (if I recall correctly, a lesbian) who used it to describe her situation.
The news media are churning out a lot of pieces about the "epidemic" of loneliness and, get this, sexlessness, of young men today. Especially conservatives and the right wing somehow think sexlessness amongst unmarried men is now somehow a problem.
“Incels in the online world have only themselves to blame for their bad reputation”
I’m not sure how to make this point any clearer than I already have. I’m not defending “incels.” I’m not speaking up for the people idolising Rodger or going on hateful rants about women. I’m trying, in what feels increasingly like a futile effort, to help you see that the vast majority of young men don’t fall into this category.
The commonly understood meanings of words change. “Woke” didn’t always mean what it generally means today. Nor did “Karen.”
I’ve not seen the pieces you’re talking about. Again, we probably get our news from different algorithms. But whether or not you think it’s silly, sexual (and the attendant romantic), relationships are really important to most young men. The changing rules of these relationships, brought on by many factors including the rise of online dating and the unrealistic expectations of social media, are extremely difficult for many men to navigate. And are worth talking about as far as they’re concerned (especially given that men are still almost exclusively *expected* to navigate them).
I strongly suspect the way conservative media is talking about it isn’t the way I’d like to see it talked about. But that doesn’t make the whole issue meaningless.
"I’ve not seen the pieces you’re talking about. Again, we probably get our news from different algorithms. "
I'm not talking about "news" I'm talking about incel forums.
"the vast majority of young men don’t fall into this category."
I work with some to help them develop male friendships, communal living spaces, bond with their families of origin as well as volunteer in their neighborhoods. These are things these young men need and they are doable. Romantic relationships may never happen for many of them and they need to acknowledge that, move on, and create relationships where they can instead of living in a fantasy world that devolves into depression.
Well, he's not a motivational speaker, he's a therapist, but he often focuses on men's issues, incels, etc., and a lot of viewers say they've been helped by him. Dr. K The Healthy Gamer;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPnWbj70TTY
Then there's Hamza who is kind of controversial for various reasons, but much better than Tate;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlRMAZ0lB0