"The opportunity to claim I'm cherrypicking is always there, but I've seen countless posts along these lines on the internet. That you think these young men are *choosing* not to find connection out of some kind of laziness is a symptom of how unseriously we think about and empathise with them."
"The opportunity to claim I'm cherrypicking is always there, but I've seen countless posts along these lines on the internet. That you think these young men are *choosing* not to find connection out of some kind of laziness is a symptom of how unseriously we think about and empathise with them."
Tate's misogyny is so blatant that it's hard to "empathize" with anyone who would be into him. And make no mistake about it, it's his misogyny that attracts these types of boys and men. They think it's "edgy". Otherwise, like already stated, there is a plethora of self-help gurus and motivational speakers online that they could follow who don't spew hateful misogyny. Who give actual practical tips on how to improve lives and make money that bypass the idiotic drop-shipping 2 pimping pipeline. These boys will be in for a rude awakening when and if they ever do try to connect with girls and women. They will be ghosted and totally iced out of the mating pool. Let's see what happens 5 years from now when these awkward teen boys get out there in the real world and try to spew this crap . If you think they're lonely and desperate now - just wait.
Also, why is it the responsibility OF WOMEN to solve this problem? There's this thing called "the Manosphere". For years now they sat online complaining about a "matriarchal gynocracy" where the global system was built by and for women. Really? Complaining that there are no "domestic violence shelters" for men. Complaining about the "male empathy gap" (which by the way, originally meant that there was a gap in men expressing empathy, but they twisted the meaning). Complaining that there was a lack of concern for men and boys.
OK. Let's say all this is true. So what has "the Manosphere" done about it in all these years? Well the majority of Manosphere have been volunteering in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They've been out feeding homeless men at shelters. They've been busy opening domestic violence shelters across the world for men. They've been opening their homes up to fostering and adopting baby boys and teens.
Oh wait, they've not done any of this you say? Mmm hmmm. They've done nothing but sit on their butts complaining on the internet. All. These. Years.
"And make no mistake about it, it's his misogyny that attracts these types of boys and men."
No, it's you who's making the mistake here. You are seemingly determined to believe this. In which case, it's probably a waste of my time repeatedly giving you examples of why it's not true. But I'll make one last try.
Yes, many of Tate's fans are probably misogynists. But when a 15-year-old is a misogynist, it's not some deeply held belief in women's inferiority, it's the poorly thought out, simplistic view of a child who hasn't learned better.
Telling this child he's complicit in the actions of men who lived and died before he was born, or telling him he just isn't trying hard enough to find connection, is not going to inspire him to think more carefully. He'll meet this simplistic thinking with simplistic thinking of his own. But talking to him with compassion, listening to him, trying to understand is experience instead of simply asserting that he's just not trying to find connection or he's just drawn to misogyny, will undoubtedly lead to better results. You might also learn something.
You stating that there are lots of people offering better guidance doesn't make it true. It's not true. At least in my experience. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course, but I can't think of anybody even close to the fame of Peterson or Tate giving young men good advice. Especially not on the topics that matter to them. Can you?
Young men in general aren't "the manosphere." They're just people. Childish collectivist terms like these are the excuse lazy people Gove to not examine their lazy thinking. They're exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, the same type of nonsense as the incels who can only think of women as bitter, man-hating, "feminazis" or hypergamous, sluts riding the "cock carousel." Therms like these are used to avoid recognising the individual humanity of people and instead, to lump them under a banner that you are comfortable demonising.
Lastly, I didn't say it was the responsibility of women to solve this. The amount of projection I constantly have to bat way in discussion like these is exhausting. We're talking about the next generation. The children who will eventually become leaders and parents and activists.
*All* of us adults therefore, men and women, have a responsibility to help *all* the members of the generation, boys and girls, to maximise their potential and navigate their struggles. Men and women aren't these distinct silos in society with no overlap. There aren't, in any sane person's mind, women's responsibility and men's responsibilities.
But we do, as a society, seem much more willing to listen to and focus on the issues girls face. That's not to say we always solve them. Clearly we don't. But you don't have to have a two-day long conversation to try to convince somebody that teenage girls are worth of empathy and aren't responsible for the mistakes of every other woman throughout history.
"The opportunity to claim I'm cherrypicking is always there, but I've seen countless posts along these lines on the internet. That you think these young men are *choosing* not to find connection out of some kind of laziness is a symptom of how unseriously we think about and empathise with them."
Tate's misogyny is so blatant that it's hard to "empathize" with anyone who would be into him. And make no mistake about it, it's his misogyny that attracts these types of boys and men. They think it's "edgy". Otherwise, like already stated, there is a plethora of self-help gurus and motivational speakers online that they could follow who don't spew hateful misogyny. Who give actual practical tips on how to improve lives and make money that bypass the idiotic drop-shipping 2 pimping pipeline. These boys will be in for a rude awakening when and if they ever do try to connect with girls and women. They will be ghosted and totally iced out of the mating pool. Let's see what happens 5 years from now when these awkward teen boys get out there in the real world and try to spew this crap . If you think they're lonely and desperate now - just wait.
Also, why is it the responsibility OF WOMEN to solve this problem? There's this thing called "the Manosphere". For years now they sat online complaining about a "matriarchal gynocracy" where the global system was built by and for women. Really? Complaining that there are no "domestic violence shelters" for men. Complaining about the "male empathy gap" (which by the way, originally meant that there was a gap in men expressing empathy, but they twisted the meaning). Complaining that there was a lack of concern for men and boys.
OK. Let's say all this is true. So what has "the Manosphere" done about it in all these years? Well the majority of Manosphere have been volunteering in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They've been out feeding homeless men at shelters. They've been busy opening domestic violence shelters across the world for men. They've been opening their homes up to fostering and adopting baby boys and teens.
Oh wait, they've not done any of this you say? Mmm hmmm. They've done nothing but sit on their butts complaining on the internet. All. These. Years.
"And make no mistake about it, it's his misogyny that attracts these types of boys and men."
No, it's you who's making the mistake here. You are seemingly determined to believe this. In which case, it's probably a waste of my time repeatedly giving you examples of why it's not true. But I'll make one last try.
Yes, many of Tate's fans are probably misogynists. But when a 15-year-old is a misogynist, it's not some deeply held belief in women's inferiority, it's the poorly thought out, simplistic view of a child who hasn't learned better.
Telling this child he's complicit in the actions of men who lived and died before he was born, or telling him he just isn't trying hard enough to find connection, is not going to inspire him to think more carefully. He'll meet this simplistic thinking with simplistic thinking of his own. But talking to him with compassion, listening to him, trying to understand is experience instead of simply asserting that he's just not trying to find connection or he's just drawn to misogyny, will undoubtedly lead to better results. You might also learn something.
You stating that there are lots of people offering better guidance doesn't make it true. It's not true. At least in my experience. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course, but I can't think of anybody even close to the fame of Peterson or Tate giving young men good advice. Especially not on the topics that matter to them. Can you?
Young men in general aren't "the manosphere." They're just people. Childish collectivist terms like these are the excuse lazy people Gove to not examine their lazy thinking. They're exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, the same type of nonsense as the incels who can only think of women as bitter, man-hating, "feminazis" or hypergamous, sluts riding the "cock carousel." Therms like these are used to avoid recognising the individual humanity of people and instead, to lump them under a banner that you are comfortable demonising.
Lastly, I didn't say it was the responsibility of women to solve this. The amount of projection I constantly have to bat way in discussion like these is exhausting. We're talking about the next generation. The children who will eventually become leaders and parents and activists.
*All* of us adults therefore, men and women, have a responsibility to help *all* the members of the generation, boys and girls, to maximise their potential and navigate their struggles. Men and women aren't these distinct silos in society with no overlap. There aren't, in any sane person's mind, women's responsibility and men's responsibilities.
But we do, as a society, seem much more willing to listen to and focus on the issues girls face. That's not to say we always solve them. Clearly we don't. But you don't have to have a two-day long conversation to try to convince somebody that teenage girls are worth of empathy and aren't responsible for the mistakes of every other woman throughout history.