Actually, America had an oil embargo on Japan and was definitely tilted toward China in the region, (there were these dudes called The Flying Tigers, etc.) though nothing quite approaching Lend Lease in Europe...
Actually, America had an oil embargo on Japan and was definitely tilted toward China in the region, (there were these dudes called The Flying Tigers, etc.) though nothing quite approaching Lend Lease in Europe...
Exactly, this is why people like myself are objecting to so many of the people Israel is killing being innocent Palestinians. Who, we're constantly assured everybody understands, are not Hamas. This is also why comparisons to the number of civilians killed in WWII don't quite stack up.
And yes, I agree, Israel's priority should be to make another attack like October 7th as unlikely as possible. How is it possible you think the way to achieve this is to radicalise thousands of Palestinians by killing their children and mothers?
Now it's just getting silly. October 7th happened BEFORE all this. So less likely in the future is that all the infrastructure is gone. Period. And probably half of Hamas fighters qualify as "children" in these counts.
How is it possible that you're so sure this isn't the way but have ZERO suggestions of a way?
Israel has been doing half measures for years. The horrific -- and organized-- nature of October 7th made total war inevitable. I feel sorry for the victims of hurricanes, too. But I don't rail at Earth's weather systems. I don't feel good about it, and I don't rah rah every day saying, "Good shot, Israel!" other than when I hear some Hamas asshole got surgically targeted. It was just obvious this was how it was going to go. Iran KNEW this was how it was going to go when they played their Gaza pawn.
And you have spent all your time lately blaming Israel for the deaths of Hamas's HUMAN SHIELDS. In Mogadishu, Adid lined up civilians to shoot at the trapped Americans. We didn't expect our guys to not shoot their way out. (Maybe that's just a Muslim warlord thing?) But it all happened in one night and there wasn't a permanent Somali refugee infrastructure in place.
I mean seriously. The Palestinian refugee infrastructure is 70 years old! Everybody in Eastern Europe and Indochina was expected to settle somewhere in that time and we didn't set aside places for them to claim. Much of this ongoing situation is deliberately using Palestinians by their "own side" as pawns in the anti-colonialism Third World UN coalition to strike at what they view as the last Western colonial power (mixed in with Islamic anti-semitism, which is considered a legit point of view in those circles-- as Ivy League schools have shown.
So I'm not buying that all this is caused by Israel's decades of mistreatment. Even Arafat admitted at the end to the Clinton Administration that he was getting 90plus percent of what he wanted in the negotiations, but if he accepted them, he was a "dead man."
"Now it's just getting silly. October 7th happened BEFORE all this. So less likely in the future is that all the infrastructure is gone. Period. And probably half of Hamas fighters qualify as "children" in these counts."
David, can you possibly be this short-sighted? Making attacks less likely in the future is surely about motivation, no? Not just infrastructure. If Gazans have the infrastructure to attack Israel, but nobody *wants* to attack, everybody in Israel is safe.
If Gaza's all *want* to attack Israel, but temporarily lack the infrastructure, Israel is only somewhat safe for the time it takes for them to rebuild that infrastructure. And as Israel well knows, it doesn't take much infrastructure to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a bus. Or even to break through a fence and rape and kill civilians.
I have suggested a way over and over again. Including in this article:
Israel should end the blockade and occupation, agree a return to the 1967 borders, reign in the settlers, and extend equal rights to Arab population living in Israel. They should make this conditional on the removal of Hamas, and, say, some kind of non-aggression treaty that makes the Palestinian state responsible (and punishable) for any aggression by terrorist actors within its birders. Oh, and they should remove Netanyahu from power as soon as possible.
p.s. are you seriously comparing Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign to a natural disaster?
Your solution is to make the October 7th attack a success, and take Israel back to the days when you could hit a baseball from the border to the sea, to coin a phrase.
And your "ifs" are just pure fantasy.
I'm not saying it's the moral same as a hurricane, I'm saying it's as inevitable. As is Netanyahu's removal from power when this is over. And you haven't seen indiscriminate, it's just not as discriminate as you (and I, for that matter) would like. This isn't Dresden, yet.
And your "plan" further incentivizes using civilian populations as human shields. You can say it's worth it, but it is also inevitable.
"Your solution is to make the October 7th attack a success, and take Israel back to the days when you could hit a baseball from the border to the sea, to coin a phrase."
No, my solution is to stop innocent people being killed and find a way to share this piece of land that is more than big enough for everybody involved. It's exactly the same solution that was on the table on October 6th. And for decades before that. It's the solution that actually follows international law. It's the solution that takes Israel back to the days before it was breaking international law.
And no, it's absolutely cowardly to claim that this was inevitable (though even in the case of a hurricane we make efforts to evacuate the civilian population and provide for them). This was a very deliberate choice, made by people who have been quite open about their intent to destroy Gaza and remove the people of Gaza from their land. It's not just about Netanyahu. It's about the people who defend his atrocities and refuse to place any responsibility on Israel for the way it's prosecuting this war.
Funny how I've never heard any of his apologists call the Israeli hostages "human shields." Here, we're quite clear, they're innocent people who have been dragged into an appalling situation and don't deserve to die.
p.s. what is fantasy about my "ifs"? This seems like pretty basic logic to me.
You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. International law in this case is a joke. International institutions are so stacked against Israel that half of them wanted a cease fire on October 8th, and assassinations of Hamas-- totally justice with no collateral damage-- would also get almost universal international condemnation.
"No, my solution is to stop innocent people being killed and find a way to share this piece of land that is more than big enough for everybody involved. It's exactly the same solution that was on the table on October 6th. " Come on, man, you're smarter than this. That's why I pay for your writing. A solution says HOW. This is a goal at best, a dream at worst. If you say "find a way," you are not offering a solution. A solution has details.
I don't know whether people call the Israeli hostages human shields or not. I don't know why they wouldn't. Maybe because it's too OBVIOUS? But in any case, I was obviously referring to the "innocent Gazans" as human shields.
And yes, it was inevitable because while there is lots of "find a way to avoid this" and what is "fair" and "international law." There was no other possibility other than an invasion here. Against an enemy that unlike in a hurricane, literally forces its civilian onto the battlefield. And have succeed in making their enemy the bad guy, while the naive want to pursue this with the precision of a bank robbery investigation. When you start a war, that's not what happens. And when you respond to an act of war on this scale in that way, you've signed your death warrant.
What's cowardly is to hide behind, "This is awful, find a way to make it pretty and fair with no innocents being killed."
тАЬYou're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. тАЭ
ЁЯШДTell that to South Africa.
Also, was this comment meant for someone else? I havenтАЩt used the words тАЬfairтАЭ or тАЬjust.тАЭ Interesting to learn you think these concepts are тАЬchildlikeтАЭ though. I confess, I think theyтАЩre quite important.
I have my intelligence insulted on an almost daily basis. It has absolutely no effect at this point. But sure, a solution has details. Again, what is IsraelтАЩs solution to the question of its security? Oh yes, to тАЬwipe out Hamas.тАЭ Very clear on details there.
The UN resolution has plenty of detail. I linked to it in the conversation. Feel free to read it. Of course there would be logistical issues. Just as there will be in Gaza whenever Israel eventually deigns to stop bombing it. Just as there will be if the members of the Israeli government who want Gazans to тАЬrelocateтАЭ get their way. Just as there were when Israel kindly dropped leaflets on a million Gazans ordering them to тАЬmove SouthтАЭ with no explanation as to where they were supposed to go or how they were supposed to make this miles-long journey, on foot, with their children and sick and elderly in tow, in a matter of days.
Oh, are we not talking about those details?
And no, itтАЩs cowardly to continue to hide behind this straw man. As IтАЩve already said, I understand that civilian casualties are inevitable in war. My issue isnтАЩt simply that innocent people have been killed or that Israel isnтАЩt perfect. ItтАЩs that 25,000(!!!) innocent people have been killed, in 100 days, with no end in sight, and no serious answer to the question of how this in any way achieves IsraelтАЩs military objectives. Or even, in any *detailed way* what those objectives are.
I say right at the top of this post that I understood Israel would respond. I knew it would be bloody. I can accept that as the price for HamasтАЩ atrocities. What I canтАЩt accept is an unlimited number of civilian casualties and a complete disdain for innocent life. IтАЩm truly astonished to learn that so many people are so comfortable with blindly defending apparently anything that Israel does.
As I asked, when is it enough? Is there ANY line Israel could cross where youтАЩd say, тАЬenoughтАЭ?
25,000 says WHO? How was it determined they were "innocent?' Minors? Again, soldiers are a lot younger there. Hell, we get stupid stats about "Teenagers" in the US that include 18-19 year olds. EVERY PERSON KILLED IN THIS WAR IS RACKED UP AND AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN BY HAMAS.
Again, lots of details about what makes you mad, no details on anything realistic to make it stop. Other than stopping. October 6th doesn't work for Israel. I'm not nearly as pro-Israel as you think, I just haven't heard anything that would get me to stop if I were them.
But in keeping with my new year's resolution to stop engaging in obviously unproductive conversations, I'm bowing out here. You're clearly not willing to discuss this issue in good faith. In fact, it often feels as if you're not even talking to me.
You ignore almost every question I ask, even when they relate directly to your accusations or criticisms of my comments, you accuse me of being "childlike" for using words I haven't used, and you keep circling back around to points we've already covered ad nauseam.
For example, this is the third time you've accused me of not including details of a solution when I've repeatedly done so. Even going so far as to provide a link to a UN resolution that lays out, in detail, the specifics of what I think Israel should do. And I think Israel should do these things because, right now, Israel is breaking international law, and has done for decades, and this is obviously a significant contributing factor to the hatred directed towards them in the region.
There are only two things about this situation that make me mad.
1. The fact that innocent civilians are being killed by the hundreds every day as the International community watches impotently.
2. The fact that people like yourself are willing to blithely defend this, even going so far as to trivialise the deaths of children (yes, people who are 14-years-old and younger are children. Even if, as you're so desperate to believe, they've been radicalised).
As I've said to you before, Hamas has provided casualty figures several times over the years during outbreaks of fighting. Those figures have always been independently verified, including by Israel and the US, to be accurate.
You could, if you're at all interested in the truth, do a quick Google search about whether Hamas figures can be trusted. Every single humanitarian body (not just WHO) has confirmed they believe the figures are accurate too. But you haven't, preferring instead to use this trope to deny the horror of what's happening in front of your eyes.
And as I've also said repeatedly, if you want to pretend that even 50% of those 0-14-year-old children are gun-toting, raping terrorists, which would be ridiculous, fine. Because that's still 5,000 children dead, in 100 days, for no discernible military purpose. You keep asking for details, yet you don't seem to mind that Israel is murdering these people without offering a single detail of its plan for stopping Hamas or what it plans to do (and what it expects the Gazan people to do) once Hamas (and Gaza) have been "destroyed."
I mean, think about it, how can you *ever* say that Hamas have been destroyed? Has Al-Qaeda been destroyed? Were the Taliban destroyed? Have ISIS been destroyed? How would you verify that? You cannot destroy an ideological group with bombs. The best you can hope to do is have them change their name after a few years when they replenish their numbers with the orphans of the innocent people you just killed.
So Israel will simply bomb Gaza into the dust, killing as many civilians as they like, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they haven't achieved their impossible, totally undefined goal. Then, when enough Gazans are dead and the area is uninhabitable, Israel will occupy it and subject Gazans to even more draconian control, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they need to make sure Hamas don't strike again. And they'll continue in their decades-long effort to take control of the whole of the region. Will you defend that too?
Anyway, as I said, above, I won't be replying any further here. I'd just ask you to think seriously about where, specifically, the line is where you'd agree that Israel has gone too far. If there isn't one, you'd save yourself, and everybody else, a lot of time by simply admitting that up front.
Gee, you called me cowardly, and I didn't bring it up 5 more times. You might want to chill for a second.
Now you're arguing like the people you criticize. I'm not "desperate" to believe anything. And a 14 year old with a gun is a soldier in this situation. I'm just asking you to recognize how the word "child" and "teenager" of spun based on the situation.
Also, after the last several years, anyone who doesn't think WHO numbers are subject to politicization is indeed using childlike arguments.
Also, the sheer numbers involved in October 7th without a leak REQUIRED support from the vast majority of Gazans. NO ONE phoned in a tip? NO ONE was worried enough about their children being bombed in response to slip a quick note to Mossad while they were working in Israel on their work permit? NO ONE.
Ooh, careful, you're dangerously close to having to ask yourself how NO ONE in Israel's government or security forces was aware of this unprecedentedly large, multi-front attack. Or, in fact, why they *were* aware of it, I think I'm right in saying a year in advance, and yet NO ONE did anything. It's almost as if this atrocity played perfectly into the hands of extremists in the Israeli government looking for an excuse to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
It's almost as if Israeli intelligence was far more likely to know about this attack than some random schmo living in Gaza.
Actually, America had an oil embargo on Japan and was definitely tilted toward China in the region, (there were these dudes called The Flying Tigers, etc.) though nothing quite approaching Lend Lease in Europe...
And Israel is a war with Hamas.
"And Israel is a war with Hamas"
Exactly, this is why people like myself are objecting to so many of the people Israel is killing being innocent Palestinians. Who, we're constantly assured everybody understands, are not Hamas. This is also why comparisons to the number of civilians killed in WWII don't quite stack up.
And yes, I agree, Israel's priority should be to make another attack like October 7th as unlikely as possible. How is it possible you think the way to achieve this is to radicalise thousands of Palestinians by killing their children and mothers?
Now it's just getting silly. October 7th happened BEFORE all this. So less likely in the future is that all the infrastructure is gone. Period. And probably half of Hamas fighters qualify as "children" in these counts.
How is it possible that you're so sure this isn't the way but have ZERO suggestions of a way?
Israel has been doing half measures for years. The horrific -- and organized-- nature of October 7th made total war inevitable. I feel sorry for the victims of hurricanes, too. But I don't rail at Earth's weather systems. I don't feel good about it, and I don't rah rah every day saying, "Good shot, Israel!" other than when I hear some Hamas asshole got surgically targeted. It was just obvious this was how it was going to go. Iran KNEW this was how it was going to go when they played their Gaza pawn.
And you have spent all your time lately blaming Israel for the deaths of Hamas's HUMAN SHIELDS. In Mogadishu, Adid lined up civilians to shoot at the trapped Americans. We didn't expect our guys to not shoot their way out. (Maybe that's just a Muslim warlord thing?) But it all happened in one night and there wasn't a permanent Somali refugee infrastructure in place.
I mean seriously. The Palestinian refugee infrastructure is 70 years old! Everybody in Eastern Europe and Indochina was expected to settle somewhere in that time and we didn't set aside places for them to claim. Much of this ongoing situation is deliberately using Palestinians by their "own side" as pawns in the anti-colonialism Third World UN coalition to strike at what they view as the last Western colonial power (mixed in with Islamic anti-semitism, which is considered a legit point of view in those circles-- as Ivy League schools have shown.
So I'm not buying that all this is caused by Israel's decades of mistreatment. Even Arafat admitted at the end to the Clinton Administration that he was getting 90plus percent of what he wanted in the negotiations, but if he accepted them, he was a "dead man."
"Now it's just getting silly. October 7th happened BEFORE all this. So less likely in the future is that all the infrastructure is gone. Period. And probably half of Hamas fighters qualify as "children" in these counts."
David, can you possibly be this short-sighted? Making attacks less likely in the future is surely about motivation, no? Not just infrastructure. If Gazans have the infrastructure to attack Israel, but nobody *wants* to attack, everybody in Israel is safe.
If Gaza's all *want* to attack Israel, but temporarily lack the infrastructure, Israel is only somewhat safe for the time it takes for them to rebuild that infrastructure. And as Israel well knows, it doesn't take much infrastructure to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a bus. Or even to break through a fence and rape and kill civilians.
I have suggested a way over and over again. Including in this article:
Israel should end the blockade and occupation, agree a return to the 1967 borders, reign in the settlers, and extend equal rights to Arab population living in Israel. They should make this conditional on the removal of Hamas, and, say, some kind of non-aggression treaty that makes the Palestinian state responsible (and punishable) for any aggression by terrorist actors within its birders. Oh, and they should remove Netanyahu from power as soon as possible.
p.s. are you seriously comparing Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign to a natural disaster?
Your solution is to make the October 7th attack a success, and take Israel back to the days when you could hit a baseball from the border to the sea, to coin a phrase.
And your "ifs" are just pure fantasy.
I'm not saying it's the moral same as a hurricane, I'm saying it's as inevitable. As is Netanyahu's removal from power when this is over. And you haven't seen indiscriminate, it's just not as discriminate as you (and I, for that matter) would like. This isn't Dresden, yet.
And your "plan" further incentivizes using civilian populations as human shields. You can say it's worth it, but it is also inevitable.
"Your solution is to make the October 7th attack a success, and take Israel back to the days when you could hit a baseball from the border to the sea, to coin a phrase."
No, my solution is to stop innocent people being killed and find a way to share this piece of land that is more than big enough for everybody involved. It's exactly the same solution that was on the table on October 6th. And for decades before that. It's the solution that actually follows international law. It's the solution that takes Israel back to the days before it was breaking international law.
And no, it's absolutely cowardly to claim that this was inevitable (though even in the case of a hurricane we make efforts to evacuate the civilian population and provide for them). This was a very deliberate choice, made by people who have been quite open about their intent to destroy Gaza and remove the people of Gaza from their land. It's not just about Netanyahu. It's about the people who defend his atrocities and refuse to place any responsibility on Israel for the way it's prosecuting this war.
Funny how I've never heard any of his apologists call the Israeli hostages "human shields." Here, we're quite clear, they're innocent people who have been dragged into an appalling situation and don't deserve to die.
p.s. what is fantasy about my "ifs"? This seems like pretty basic logic to me.
You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. International law in this case is a joke. International institutions are so stacked against Israel that half of them wanted a cease fire on October 8th, and assassinations of Hamas-- totally justice with no collateral damage-- would also get almost universal international condemnation.
"No, my solution is to stop innocent people being killed and find a way to share this piece of land that is more than big enough for everybody involved. It's exactly the same solution that was on the table on October 6th. " Come on, man, you're smarter than this. That's why I pay for your writing. A solution says HOW. This is a goal at best, a dream at worst. If you say "find a way," you are not offering a solution. A solution has details.
I don't know whether people call the Israeli hostages human shields or not. I don't know why they wouldn't. Maybe because it's too OBVIOUS? But in any case, I was obviously referring to the "innocent Gazans" as human shields.
And yes, it was inevitable because while there is lots of "find a way to avoid this" and what is "fair" and "international law." There was no other possibility other than an invasion here. Against an enemy that unlike in a hurricane, literally forces its civilian onto the battlefield. And have succeed in making their enemy the bad guy, while the naive want to pursue this with the precision of a bank robbery investigation. When you start a war, that's not what happens. And when you respond to an act of war on this scale in that way, you've signed your death warrant.
What's cowardly is to hide behind, "This is awful, find a way to make it pretty and fair with no innocents being killed."
тАЬYou're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. тАЭ
ЁЯШДTell that to South Africa.
Also, was this comment meant for someone else? I havenтАЩt used the words тАЬfairтАЭ or тАЬjust.тАЭ Interesting to learn you think these concepts are тАЬchildlikeтАЭ though. I confess, I think theyтАЩre quite important.
I have my intelligence insulted on an almost daily basis. It has absolutely no effect at this point. But sure, a solution has details. Again, what is IsraelтАЩs solution to the question of its security? Oh yes, to тАЬwipe out Hamas.тАЭ Very clear on details there.
The UN resolution has plenty of detail. I linked to it in the conversation. Feel free to read it. Of course there would be logistical issues. Just as there will be in Gaza whenever Israel eventually deigns to stop bombing it. Just as there will be if the members of the Israeli government who want Gazans to тАЬrelocateтАЭ get their way. Just as there were when Israel kindly dropped leaflets on a million Gazans ordering them to тАЬmove SouthтАЭ with no explanation as to where they were supposed to go or how they were supposed to make this miles-long journey, on foot, with their children and sick and elderly in tow, in a matter of days.
Oh, are we not talking about those details?
And no, itтАЩs cowardly to continue to hide behind this straw man. As IтАЩve already said, I understand that civilian casualties are inevitable in war. My issue isnтАЩt simply that innocent people have been killed or that Israel isnтАЩt perfect. ItтАЩs that 25,000(!!!) innocent people have been killed, in 100 days, with no end in sight, and no serious answer to the question of how this in any way achieves IsraelтАЩs military objectives. Or even, in any *detailed way* what those objectives are.
I say right at the top of this post that I understood Israel would respond. I knew it would be bloody. I can accept that as the price for HamasтАЩ atrocities. What I canтАЩt accept is an unlimited number of civilian casualties and a complete disdain for innocent life. IтАЩm truly astonished to learn that so many people are so comfortable with blindly defending apparently anything that Israel does.
As I asked, when is it enough? Is there ANY line Israel could cross where youтАЩd say, тАЬenoughтАЭ?
25,000 says WHO? How was it determined they were "innocent?' Minors? Again, soldiers are a lot younger there. Hell, we get stupid stats about "Teenagers" in the US that include 18-19 year olds. EVERY PERSON KILLED IN THIS WAR IS RACKED UP AND AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN BY HAMAS.
Again, lots of details about what makes you mad, no details on anything realistic to make it stop. Other than stopping. October 6th doesn't work for Israel. I'm not nearly as pro-Israel as you think, I just haven't heard anything that would get me to stop if I were them.
"25,000 says WHO?"
Well, you gave me a laugh at least; yes, WHO says Hamas' figures are accurate (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/10/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-benjamin-netanyahu-gaza-fighting-pauses-un-palestine?page=with:block-654eb2538f08a95ef07ec5c9&filterKeyEvents=false).
But in keeping with my new year's resolution to stop engaging in obviously unproductive conversations, I'm bowing out here. You're clearly not willing to discuss this issue in good faith. In fact, it often feels as if you're not even talking to me.
You ignore almost every question I ask, even when they relate directly to your accusations or criticisms of my comments, you accuse me of being "childlike" for using words I haven't used, and you keep circling back around to points we've already covered ad nauseam.
For example, this is the third time you've accused me of not including details of a solution when I've repeatedly done so. Even going so far as to provide a link to a UN resolution that lays out, in detail, the specifics of what I think Israel should do. And I think Israel should do these things because, right now, Israel is breaking international law, and has done for decades, and this is obviously a significant contributing factor to the hatred directed towards them in the region.
There are only two things about this situation that make me mad.
1. The fact that innocent civilians are being killed by the hundreds every day as the International community watches impotently.
2. The fact that people like yourself are willing to blithely defend this, even going so far as to trivialise the deaths of children (yes, people who are 14-years-old and younger are children. Even if, as you're so desperate to believe, they've been radicalised).
As I've said to you before, Hamas has provided casualty figures several times over the years during outbreaks of fighting. Those figures have always been independently verified, including by Israel and the US, to be accurate.
You could, if you're at all interested in the truth, do a quick Google search about whether Hamas figures can be trusted. Every single humanitarian body (not just WHO) has confirmed they believe the figures are accurate too. But you haven't, preferring instead to use this trope to deny the horror of what's happening in front of your eyes.
And as I've also said repeatedly, if you want to pretend that even 50% of those 0-14-year-old children are gun-toting, raping terrorists, which would be ridiculous, fine. Because that's still 5,000 children dead, in 100 days, for no discernible military purpose. You keep asking for details, yet you don't seem to mind that Israel is murdering these people without offering a single detail of its plan for stopping Hamas or what it plans to do (and what it expects the Gazan people to do) once Hamas (and Gaza) have been "destroyed."
I mean, think about it, how can you *ever* say that Hamas have been destroyed? Has Al-Qaeda been destroyed? Were the Taliban destroyed? Have ISIS been destroyed? How would you verify that? You cannot destroy an ideological group with bombs. The best you can hope to do is have them change their name after a few years when they replenish their numbers with the orphans of the innocent people you just killed.
So Israel will simply bomb Gaza into the dust, killing as many civilians as they like, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they haven't achieved their impossible, totally undefined goal. Then, when enough Gazans are dead and the area is uninhabitable, Israel will occupy it and subject Gazans to even more draconian control, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they need to make sure Hamas don't strike again. And they'll continue in their decades-long effort to take control of the whole of the region. Will you defend that too?
Anyway, as I said, above, I won't be replying any further here. I'd just ask you to think seriously about where, specifically, the line is where you'd agree that Israel has gone too far. If there isn't one, you'd save yourself, and everybody else, a lot of time by simply admitting that up front.
Gee, you called me cowardly, and I didn't bring it up 5 more times. You might want to chill for a second.
Now you're arguing like the people you criticize. I'm not "desperate" to believe anything. And a 14 year old with a gun is a soldier in this situation. I'm just asking you to recognize how the word "child" and "teenager" of spun based on the situation.
Also, after the last several years, anyone who doesn't think WHO numbers are subject to politicization is indeed using childlike arguments.
Also, the sheer numbers involved in October 7th without a leak REQUIRED support from the vast majority of Gazans. NO ONE phoned in a tip? NO ONE was worried enough about their children being bombed in response to slip a quick note to Mossad while they were working in Israel on their work permit? NO ONE.
Ooh, careful, you're dangerously close to having to ask yourself how NO ONE in Israel's government or security forces was aware of this unprecedentedly large, multi-front attack. Or, in fact, why they *were* aware of it, I think I'm right in saying a year in advance, and yet NO ONE did anything. It's almost as if this atrocity played perfectly into the hands of extremists in the Israeli government looking for an excuse to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
It's almost as if Israeli intelligence was far more likely to know about this attack than some random schmo living in Gaza.