You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. International law in this case is a joke. International institutions are so stacked against Israel that half of them wanted a cease fire on October 8th, and assassinations of Hamas-- totally justice with no collateral dam…
You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. International law in this case is a joke. International institutions are so stacked against Israel that half of them wanted a cease fire on October 8th, and assassinations of Hamas-- totally justice with no collateral damage-- would also get almost universal international condemnation.
"No, my solution is to stop innocent people being killed and find a way to share this piece of land that is more than big enough for everybody involved. It's exactly the same solution that was on the table on October 6th. " Come on, man, you're smarter than this. That's why I pay for your writing. A solution says HOW. This is a goal at best, a dream at worst. If you say "find a way," you are not offering a solution. A solution has details.
I don't know whether people call the Israeli hostages human shields or not. I don't know why they wouldn't. Maybe because it's too OBVIOUS? But in any case, I was obviously referring to the "innocent Gazans" as human shields.
And yes, it was inevitable because while there is lots of "find a way to avoid this" and what is "fair" and "international law." There was no other possibility other than an invasion here. Against an enemy that unlike in a hurricane, literally forces its civilian onto the battlefield. And have succeed in making their enemy the bad guy, while the naive want to pursue this with the precision of a bank robbery investigation. When you start a war, that's not what happens. And when you respond to an act of war on this scale in that way, you've signed your death warrant.
What's cowardly is to hide behind, "This is awful, find a way to make it pretty and fair with no innocents being killed."
“You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. ”
😄Tell that to South Africa.
Also, was this comment meant for someone else? I haven’t used the words “fair” or “just.” Interesting to learn you think these concepts are “childlike” though. I confess, I think they’re quite important.
I have my intelligence insulted on an almost daily basis. It has absolutely no effect at this point. But sure, a solution has details. Again, what is Israel’s solution to the question of its security? Oh yes, to “wipe out Hamas.” Very clear on details there.
The UN resolution has plenty of detail. I linked to it in the conversation. Feel free to read it. Of course there would be logistical issues. Just as there will be in Gaza whenever Israel eventually deigns to stop bombing it. Just as there will be if the members of the Israeli government who want Gazans to “relocate” get their way. Just as there were when Israel kindly dropped leaflets on a million Gazans ordering them to “move South” with no explanation as to where they were supposed to go or how they were supposed to make this miles-long journey, on foot, with their children and sick and elderly in tow, in a matter of days.
Oh, are we not talking about those details?
And no, it’s cowardly to continue to hide behind this straw man. As I’ve already said, I understand that civilian casualties are inevitable in war. My issue isn’t simply that innocent people have been killed or that Israel isn’t perfect. It’s that 25,000(!!!) innocent people have been killed, in 100 days, with no end in sight, and no serious answer to the question of how this in any way achieves Israel’s military objectives. Or even, in any *detailed way* what those objectives are.
I say right at the top of this post that I understood Israel would respond. I knew it would be bloody. I can accept that as the price for Hamas’ atrocities. What I can’t accept is an unlimited number of civilian casualties and a complete disdain for innocent life. I’m truly astonished to learn that so many people are so comfortable with blindly defending apparently anything that Israel does.
As I asked, when is it enough? Is there ANY line Israel could cross where you’d say, “enough”?
25,000 says WHO? How was it determined they were "innocent?' Minors? Again, soldiers are a lot younger there. Hell, we get stupid stats about "Teenagers" in the US that include 18-19 year olds. EVERY PERSON KILLED IN THIS WAR IS RACKED UP AND AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN BY HAMAS.
Again, lots of details about what makes you mad, no details on anything realistic to make it stop. Other than stopping. October 6th doesn't work for Israel. I'm not nearly as pro-Israel as you think, I just haven't heard anything that would get me to stop if I were them.
But in keeping with my new year's resolution to stop engaging in obviously unproductive conversations, I'm bowing out here. You're clearly not willing to discuss this issue in good faith. In fact, it often feels as if you're not even talking to me.
You ignore almost every question I ask, even when they relate directly to your accusations or criticisms of my comments, you accuse me of being "childlike" for using words I haven't used, and you keep circling back around to points we've already covered ad nauseam.
For example, this is the third time you've accused me of not including details of a solution when I've repeatedly done so. Even going so far as to provide a link to a UN resolution that lays out, in detail, the specifics of what I think Israel should do. And I think Israel should do these things because, right now, Israel is breaking international law, and has done for decades, and this is obviously a significant contributing factor to the hatred directed towards them in the region.
There are only two things about this situation that make me mad.
1. The fact that innocent civilians are being killed by the hundreds every day as the International community watches impotently.
2. The fact that people like yourself are willing to blithely defend this, even going so far as to trivialise the deaths of children (yes, people who are 14-years-old and younger are children. Even if, as you're so desperate to believe, they've been radicalised).
As I've said to you before, Hamas has provided casualty figures several times over the years during outbreaks of fighting. Those figures have always been independently verified, including by Israel and the US, to be accurate.
You could, if you're at all interested in the truth, do a quick Google search about whether Hamas figures can be trusted. Every single humanitarian body (not just WHO) has confirmed they believe the figures are accurate too. But you haven't, preferring instead to use this trope to deny the horror of what's happening in front of your eyes.
And as I've also said repeatedly, if you want to pretend that even 50% of those 0-14-year-old children are gun-toting, raping terrorists, which would be ridiculous, fine. Because that's still 5,000 children dead, in 100 days, for no discernible military purpose. You keep asking for details, yet you don't seem to mind that Israel is murdering these people without offering a single detail of its plan for stopping Hamas or what it plans to do (and what it expects the Gazan people to do) once Hamas (and Gaza) have been "destroyed."
I mean, think about it, how can you *ever* say that Hamas have been destroyed? Has Al-Qaeda been destroyed? Were the Taliban destroyed? Have ISIS been destroyed? How would you verify that? You cannot destroy an ideological group with bombs. The best you can hope to do is have them change their name after a few years when they replenish their numbers with the orphans of the innocent people you just killed.
So Israel will simply bomb Gaza into the dust, killing as many civilians as they like, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they haven't achieved their impossible, totally undefined goal. Then, when enough Gazans are dead and the area is uninhabitable, Israel will occupy it and subject Gazans to even more draconian control, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they need to make sure Hamas don't strike again. And they'll continue in their decades-long effort to take control of the whole of the region. Will you defend that too?
Anyway, as I said, above, I won't be replying any further here. I'd just ask you to think seriously about where, specifically, the line is where you'd agree that Israel has gone too far. If there isn't one, you'd save yourself, and everybody else, a lot of time by simply admitting that up front.
Gee, you called me cowardly, and I didn't bring it up 5 more times. You might want to chill for a second.
Now you're arguing like the people you criticize. I'm not "desperate" to believe anything. And a 14 year old with a gun is a soldier in this situation. I'm just asking you to recognize how the word "child" and "teenager" of spun based on the situation.
Also, after the last several years, anyone who doesn't think WHO numbers are subject to politicization is indeed using childlike arguments.
“ Gee, you called me cowardly, and I didn't bring it up 5 more times”
Man, again, it’s as if you’re arguing with someone else!😅 When did I bring anything up five times? I’m totally “chilled.” No hard feelings. Just going around in circles and arguing with someone who wants to somehow imply that any meaningful number of the 10,000 dead children who are 14 and under are child soldiers is very obviously a waste of time.
Again, it’s not just WHO. It’s every single organisation who has ever verified Hamas’ numbers. Including Israel. You could verify this easily. But then you’d have to let go of this particular deflection tool.
Anyway, I really am dropping this now. Just didn’t want you to think I was mad.
You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. International law in this case is a joke. International institutions are so stacked against Israel that half of them wanted a cease fire on October 8th, and assassinations of Hamas-- totally justice with no collateral damage-- would also get almost universal international condemnation.
"No, my solution is to stop innocent people being killed and find a way to share this piece of land that is more than big enough for everybody involved. It's exactly the same solution that was on the table on October 6th. " Come on, man, you're smarter than this. That's why I pay for your writing. A solution says HOW. This is a goal at best, a dream at worst. If you say "find a way," you are not offering a solution. A solution has details.
I don't know whether people call the Israeli hostages human shields or not. I don't know why they wouldn't. Maybe because it's too OBVIOUS? But in any case, I was obviously referring to the "innocent Gazans" as human shields.
And yes, it was inevitable because while there is lots of "find a way to avoid this" and what is "fair" and "international law." There was no other possibility other than an invasion here. Against an enemy that unlike in a hurricane, literally forces its civilian onto the battlefield. And have succeed in making their enemy the bad guy, while the naive want to pursue this with the precision of a bank robbery investigation. When you start a war, that's not what happens. And when you respond to an act of war on this scale in that way, you've signed your death warrant.
What's cowardly is to hide behind, "This is awful, find a way to make it pretty and fair with no innocents being killed."
“You're acting like this is a civil court action or something. Words like "fair" and "just" are almost childlike here. ”
😄Tell that to South Africa.
Also, was this comment meant for someone else? I haven’t used the words “fair” or “just.” Interesting to learn you think these concepts are “childlike” though. I confess, I think they’re quite important.
I have my intelligence insulted on an almost daily basis. It has absolutely no effect at this point. But sure, a solution has details. Again, what is Israel’s solution to the question of its security? Oh yes, to “wipe out Hamas.” Very clear on details there.
The UN resolution has plenty of detail. I linked to it in the conversation. Feel free to read it. Of course there would be logistical issues. Just as there will be in Gaza whenever Israel eventually deigns to stop bombing it. Just as there will be if the members of the Israeli government who want Gazans to “relocate” get their way. Just as there were when Israel kindly dropped leaflets on a million Gazans ordering them to “move South” with no explanation as to where they were supposed to go or how they were supposed to make this miles-long journey, on foot, with their children and sick and elderly in tow, in a matter of days.
Oh, are we not talking about those details?
And no, it’s cowardly to continue to hide behind this straw man. As I’ve already said, I understand that civilian casualties are inevitable in war. My issue isn’t simply that innocent people have been killed or that Israel isn’t perfect. It’s that 25,000(!!!) innocent people have been killed, in 100 days, with no end in sight, and no serious answer to the question of how this in any way achieves Israel’s military objectives. Or even, in any *detailed way* what those objectives are.
I say right at the top of this post that I understood Israel would respond. I knew it would be bloody. I can accept that as the price for Hamas’ atrocities. What I can’t accept is an unlimited number of civilian casualties and a complete disdain for innocent life. I’m truly astonished to learn that so many people are so comfortable with blindly defending apparently anything that Israel does.
As I asked, when is it enough? Is there ANY line Israel could cross where you’d say, “enough”?
25,000 says WHO? How was it determined they were "innocent?' Minors? Again, soldiers are a lot younger there. Hell, we get stupid stats about "Teenagers" in the US that include 18-19 year olds. EVERY PERSON KILLED IN THIS WAR IS RACKED UP AND AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN BY HAMAS.
Again, lots of details about what makes you mad, no details on anything realistic to make it stop. Other than stopping. October 6th doesn't work for Israel. I'm not nearly as pro-Israel as you think, I just haven't heard anything that would get me to stop if I were them.
"25,000 says WHO?"
Well, you gave me a laugh at least; yes, WHO says Hamas' figures are accurate (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/10/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-benjamin-netanyahu-gaza-fighting-pauses-un-palestine?page=with:block-654eb2538f08a95ef07ec5c9&filterKeyEvents=false).
But in keeping with my new year's resolution to stop engaging in obviously unproductive conversations, I'm bowing out here. You're clearly not willing to discuss this issue in good faith. In fact, it often feels as if you're not even talking to me.
You ignore almost every question I ask, even when they relate directly to your accusations or criticisms of my comments, you accuse me of being "childlike" for using words I haven't used, and you keep circling back around to points we've already covered ad nauseam.
For example, this is the third time you've accused me of not including details of a solution when I've repeatedly done so. Even going so far as to provide a link to a UN resolution that lays out, in detail, the specifics of what I think Israel should do. And I think Israel should do these things because, right now, Israel is breaking international law, and has done for decades, and this is obviously a significant contributing factor to the hatred directed towards them in the region.
There are only two things about this situation that make me mad.
1. The fact that innocent civilians are being killed by the hundreds every day as the International community watches impotently.
2. The fact that people like yourself are willing to blithely defend this, even going so far as to trivialise the deaths of children (yes, people who are 14-years-old and younger are children. Even if, as you're so desperate to believe, they've been radicalised).
As I've said to you before, Hamas has provided casualty figures several times over the years during outbreaks of fighting. Those figures have always been independently verified, including by Israel and the US, to be accurate.
You could, if you're at all interested in the truth, do a quick Google search about whether Hamas figures can be trusted. Every single humanitarian body (not just WHO) has confirmed they believe the figures are accurate too. But you haven't, preferring instead to use this trope to deny the horror of what's happening in front of your eyes.
And as I've also said repeatedly, if you want to pretend that even 50% of those 0-14-year-old children are gun-toting, raping terrorists, which would be ridiculous, fine. Because that's still 5,000 children dead, in 100 days, for no discernible military purpose. You keep asking for details, yet you don't seem to mind that Israel is murdering these people without offering a single detail of its plan for stopping Hamas or what it plans to do (and what it expects the Gazan people to do) once Hamas (and Gaza) have been "destroyed."
I mean, think about it, how can you *ever* say that Hamas have been destroyed? Has Al-Qaeda been destroyed? Were the Taliban destroyed? Have ISIS been destroyed? How would you verify that? You cannot destroy an ideological group with bombs. The best you can hope to do is have them change their name after a few years when they replenish their numbers with the orphans of the innocent people you just killed.
So Israel will simply bomb Gaza into the dust, killing as many civilians as they like, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they haven't achieved their impossible, totally undefined goal. Then, when enough Gazans are dead and the area is uninhabitable, Israel will occupy it and subject Gazans to even more draconian control, and you'll defend them as they do it, because they need to make sure Hamas don't strike again. And they'll continue in their decades-long effort to take control of the whole of the region. Will you defend that too?
Anyway, as I said, above, I won't be replying any further here. I'd just ask you to think seriously about where, specifically, the line is where you'd agree that Israel has gone too far. If there isn't one, you'd save yourself, and everybody else, a lot of time by simply admitting that up front.
Gee, you called me cowardly, and I didn't bring it up 5 more times. You might want to chill for a second.
Now you're arguing like the people you criticize. I'm not "desperate" to believe anything. And a 14 year old with a gun is a soldier in this situation. I'm just asking you to recognize how the word "child" and "teenager" of spun based on the situation.
Also, after the last several years, anyone who doesn't think WHO numbers are subject to politicization is indeed using childlike arguments.
“ Gee, you called me cowardly, and I didn't bring it up 5 more times”
Man, again, it’s as if you’re arguing with someone else!😅 When did I bring anything up five times? I’m totally “chilled.” No hard feelings. Just going around in circles and arguing with someone who wants to somehow imply that any meaningful number of the 10,000 dead children who are 14 and under are child soldiers is very obviously a waste of time.
Again, it’s not just WHO. It’s every single organisation who has ever verified Hamas’ numbers. Including Israel. You could verify this easily. But then you’d have to let go of this particular deflection tool.
Anyway, I really am dropping this now. Just didn’t want you to think I was mad.
I didn't count, but the childlike thing came up a bunch. It wasn't even completely directed to you, but to many of the reasons.
Again, I'm sad that Hamas uses children as human shields and considers every dead child as a plus in the war.