I agree with you on basically everything, but here I am very split. I am a firm believer in the right of Israel to exist and to protect its citizens, and, more importantly, I know the history of the region. As long as Arab states use Palestinians as a proxy in a war to drive the Jews out, this conflict has no end. And, fuck, they have! F…
I agree with you on basically everything, but here I am very split. I am a firm believer in the right of Israel to exist and to protect its citizens, and, more importantly, I know the history of the region. As long as Arab states use Palestinians as a proxy in a war to drive the Jews out, this conflict has no end. And, fuck, they have! From the beginning! From the very moment they decided Jews have no right to be there or to have their own country in a place they have been inhabited from the dawn of times, and they invented the nation of "Palestine" and made up a "warrior" with Arafat's face, who was in fact trained and schooled by the KGB and other helpful actors from the Communist bloc. Every time they have rejected the 2-state solution (regardless of your childish argument of "it was not good enough for them") they used Palestinians as pawns in a hate game. Also, your claim that Hamas is not in control in the West Banks, is correct in theory only; in reality, Hamas pushes an ideology embraced by the majority of Palestinians, including (or even especially) those in the West Banks (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/22/1207863782/who-governs-the-west-bank-understanding-palestinian-political-leadership)
Yes, it is absolutely horrific that so many innocent people die as scapegoats in a war they don't want, and it happens every single damn time! It is estimated that between 500,000 and 2 million German civilians died in WWII from ally bombardings and Soviet war crimes, without counting the over 200,000 that Nazis killed in euthanasia programs. I am afraid this conflict is headed that way, just like the Iraq war, or the bloody Syrian civil war, or the one in Yemen. There is a way to put an end to this, though, one that you discount here, for whatever reasons you might have: what if Qatar, Egypt and a coalition of Arab states said "enough" and decided to expel all Hamas leaders and support the return of all hostages to Israel, and work together with Israel towards a peaceful resolution? Would that be acceptable for you? What if, instead of wanting the total destruction of Israel, they would leave the Jewish state alone, and support the reconstruction and development of a Palestinian State that would build schools instead of tunnels?
I am heartbroken for the thousands of people who were killed on both sides during this monstrous conflict, but I also understand that for all Jews in Israel this is a question of life and death, now or never, you or me. I don't agree with it, but I won't pretend to be in their shoes and to know better than themselves what is best for them. As heartless and awful as it sounds, Palestinians could all be given safe haven in any of the Arab countries in the area, at least temporarily, until a solution is worked out. The Israeli Jews cannot say the same, and you know it very well. If the pogrom of October 7 was possible on their own territory, imagine what would happen to them in their declared enemy's space!
"what if Qatar, Egypt and a coalition of Arab states said "enough" and decided to expel all Hamas leaders and support the return of all hostages to Israel, and work together with Israel towards a peaceful resolution? Would that be acceptable for you?"
Yes, this would be perfectly acceptable to me. I want the hostages released (preferably before Hamas or the IDF kills any more of them). I want Hamas to be destroyed. I support any solution that gets those ~130 hostages released that doesn't, for some abstract reason, involve the slaughter of ~24,000 equally innocent people. I don't understand how this math is working differently for anybody else. Heck, I'd even *kind of* understand if the 24,000 innocent deaths were guaranteed to bring those 130 hostages home but it hasn't even achieved that.
But also, your solution is only half a solution.
There would still remain the question of the borders of that Jewish state (a question that Israeli governments have repeatedly refused to answer).
There would still be the question of Israel retuning the land that is not and never hs been officially part of the Jewish state (something that Netanyahu has openly refused to do, even though holding it is against international law).
There would still be the question of the blockade of Gaza and the West Bank barrier and the discrimination against and disenfranchisement of Arabs in Israel.
Israel have proposed precisely zero solutions to any of these major issues. And, in fact, have been openly hostile to addressing them.
The 2 million people in Gaza could not be given safe haven in a neighbouring state. This is only possible to say when you think in numbers and not in human beings. It's practically impossible. Not only that, but it's exactly what the extremists in Netanyahu's government want (and what some of the have proposed). But if those people leave their land, they will never get it back. Just as we saw in the Nakba. A significant part of this conflict is built around Israel's clear desire to take all of the land from the river to the sea.
But that is not Israel's land.
I keep hearing people say that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. I agree. But why is it that the people who say this can't see that the Palestinian people have the same rights? And the they will inevitably fight for them.
I agree with many of the issues you raise. Alas, it is really too late for the international community to raise them NOW! These issues have been brewing for more than 75 years, ever since the creation of the state of Israel and the complete refusal of Palestinians and other Arab countries to accept the two state solution. Look at the partition plan for 1947! The Palestinian side was more than adequate for the one million (or so, as there are no real statistics from that time) Palestinian Muslims who claimed the land, but when they rejected the plan and declared war to Israel the international community didn't raise a finger! They started conflicts with Israel in 1948, 1967, 1971, 1973, 1985, 1987, 2000, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 and now 2023, helped by the Arab neighbors. Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land? The PLO was created in 1964, when Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan, who also controlled the East Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and the Temple Mount! In 1964 there were no Israeli settlements in Gaza, nor in Judea or Samaria (The West Bank) and they had no intention to send their people in a new war! What land did PLO want to "liberate" in 1964? After the 1967 Six Day war, the PLO launched attacks from Jordan. In 1970, to save his country, King Hussein of Jordan expelled PLO to Lebanon (where they helped start the civil war that destroyed the country, the only country with a Christian majority in the Middle East). Wanna guess why Jordan expelled them? Don't take it from me, take it from the horse's mouth, the "brave" Zuheir Mohsen, one of the members of the PLO Executive Council : " The creation of a Palestinian State is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Jaffa and Haifa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine (my note: the wonderful from the river to the sea), we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan". It was NEVER about the land (a land that used to belong to Jews and Palestinians equally)! They just wanted to kill the Jews - just search for all the pogroms Jews went through while they were inhabiting that land before the creation of Israel and the destruction of Jewish settlements between 1920 and 1940: Bnei Yehuda, Tel Hai, Metula, Kfar Saba, Kfar Malal, Kfar Uria, Ruhama, Hartuv, Hulda, Motza, Poria, Gaza, Beit She'an. Nakba was a human tragedy caused by ALL forces involved in the conflict! The 700,000 Palestinians who lost their lives or were forced to flee have their equivalent in the more than 850,000 Jews who were killed or expelled at the same time from the neighbouring Arab states. The difference is that while the Jews found a haven in Israel, the Palestinians were stuffed into refugee camps and denied citizenship wherever they would go. They are and have always been pawns in the effort of Arab countries from the Middle East to refuse any autonomy to Jewish population. Yes, of course, Palestinians have the right to inhabit land that belonged to their ancestors. How far back should we go for that claim? British Empire? Ottoman Empire? Byzantine Empire? Roman Empire? Persian Empire? Achaemenid Empire? Neo-Assyrian Empire? Kingdom of Israel? Egyptian Empire? Akkadian Empire? Frankly, Palestinians will never own that land fully if they continue to claim it belongs to them only, and no Jews will ever be allowed to be there. This is the ONLY fixation political forces in that part of the world have had or will have, and I know it because I've lived there. Once you learn the history of that land and you live in Israel your optics change dramatically. So yes, my friend, that train has left the station a long time ago. That land is not blessed, it's damned by the murderous ideation of a pan-Arabic coalition that wants no Jews in their middle.
"Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land?"
No, I'm not kidding at all! I don't even have to look to history.
As I mentioned to Tom, Benjamin Netanyahu stood on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly, before October 7th, and held up a map with Palestine completely erased and Israel occupying all the land from the "river to the sea".
Israeli settlers have been stealing Palestinian land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eac1l1ozfLc), by force, for decades. And with the help of the IDF, have stolen more, in the West Bank, since October 7th. Forcing people from their houses at gunpoint in some cases. Again, this is justified by the claim that the land is theirs and ignored, and sometimes aided, by the Israeli government.
I'm not denying at all that there are Muslim extremists who want to kill Jews. Hamas among them. But let's not pretend Israelis are all moderates.
Netanyahu is not Israel, and you know that very well, please don't be disingenuous! Of course there are extremists in every single country, and maybe in Israel more than elsewhere, for good reasons - you cannot live under the threat of daily rockets thrown at you by a neighbor who hates you to the point of beheading your children, and still love this neighbor. But while this idea of a "greater Israel" is an extremist view in Israel, it is mainstream among Palestinians to hold the view that "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free"... of Jews. The reality is that Jews can live side by side or integrated peacefully with others (20%+ of the ISRAELI population is Muslim or Druze or Christian, holding full rights and representation) but Muslims cannot, when they are in charge. Name any Muslim majority democracy in which non-Muslims exist and have equal status. 950,000 Jews were expelled from middle eastern Muslim countries in the 20th century. Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews cannot return to those places where they had many generations of relatives. But non-Jews can absolutely live in Israel peacefully. Maybe if the citizens of Gaza and West Bank stopped acting like terrorists, led by corrupt and genocidal Palestinian governments in blind rage towards Israeli Jews (vs Egypt or Jordan that also controlled these areas at times), they too could live in freedom to pursue their best lives. How did those Muslim Arab-Israelis come to be there? Because they or their forefathers were not "driven out," but instead chose to remain and become Israeli citizens.
On Arabs living in Israel, here's a piece from Wiki about Jerusalem:
"Under Israeli law, Arab residents of East Jerusalem and Druze residents of the Golan Heights (both Israeli-occupied territories) have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights; this status is upheld due to Israel's effective annexation of the former through the Jerusalem Law of 1980 and of the latter through the Golan Heights Law of 1981.[22] Both groups have largely foregone applying for Israeli citizenship, with the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the Syrians of the Golan Heights mostly holding residency status."
Do you really believe that such an action would result in either:
1 -- Palestinians in the West Bank getting to vote in Israeli elections, and have the right to keep their land in the West Bank?
2 -- A real Palestinian state where residents of the West Bank controlled land ownership and the justice system in that area, which would probably result in many Israeli settlements in the West Bank having to be abandoned?
Because I don't. I don't see Israel granting any rights to Palestinians, either in the WB or Israel proper.
And yet, this means that Israel's 7 million Jews need to keep 5 million non-citizen Palestinians oppressed forever. There's no way that ends well.
You mirror my thoughts pretty clearly here. Dan Senor’s weekly conversations with Israeli’s offers nuanced, sensible, historically accurate discussion.
You also should note that within a few years of the end of WW2, (West) Germans were indeed voting in their own elections, and controlled their own destiny.
Indeed. But they didn't do that just because, they did it because other nations (especially the US) made it possible. We are talking about West Germany, of course, as the Soviets blocked aid from the Marshall Plan to any Communist country in the area, including East Germany. West Germany went on to become intrinsically connected with other countries in the West, especially France, to avoid a subsequent war. This could only be possible in the Middle East if the Arab countries would love their citizens more than they hate the Jews in Israel. So you are partially right, this might not be possible, but not because Israel is opposed to peace. The ball is not in their court on this.
I agree with you on basically everything, but here I am very split. I am a firm believer in the right of Israel to exist and to protect its citizens, and, more importantly, I know the history of the region. As long as Arab states use Palestinians as a proxy in a war to drive the Jews out, this conflict has no end. And, fuck, they have! From the beginning! From the very moment they decided Jews have no right to be there or to have their own country in a place they have been inhabited from the dawn of times, and they invented the nation of "Palestine" and made up a "warrior" with Arafat's face, who was in fact trained and schooled by the KGB and other helpful actors from the Communist bloc. Every time they have rejected the 2-state solution (regardless of your childish argument of "it was not good enough for them") they used Palestinians as pawns in a hate game. Also, your claim that Hamas is not in control in the West Banks, is correct in theory only; in reality, Hamas pushes an ideology embraced by the majority of Palestinians, including (or even especially) those in the West Banks (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/22/1207863782/who-governs-the-west-bank-understanding-palestinian-political-leadership)
Yes, it is absolutely horrific that so many innocent people die as scapegoats in a war they don't want, and it happens every single damn time! It is estimated that between 500,000 and 2 million German civilians died in WWII from ally bombardings and Soviet war crimes, without counting the over 200,000 that Nazis killed in euthanasia programs. I am afraid this conflict is headed that way, just like the Iraq war, or the bloody Syrian civil war, or the one in Yemen. There is a way to put an end to this, though, one that you discount here, for whatever reasons you might have: what if Qatar, Egypt and a coalition of Arab states said "enough" and decided to expel all Hamas leaders and support the return of all hostages to Israel, and work together with Israel towards a peaceful resolution? Would that be acceptable for you? What if, instead of wanting the total destruction of Israel, they would leave the Jewish state alone, and support the reconstruction and development of a Palestinian State that would build schools instead of tunnels?
I am heartbroken for the thousands of people who were killed on both sides during this monstrous conflict, but I also understand that for all Jews in Israel this is a question of life and death, now or never, you or me. I don't agree with it, but I won't pretend to be in their shoes and to know better than themselves what is best for them. As heartless and awful as it sounds, Palestinians could all be given safe haven in any of the Arab countries in the area, at least temporarily, until a solution is worked out. The Israeli Jews cannot say the same, and you know it very well. If the pogrom of October 7 was possible on their own territory, imagine what would happen to them in their declared enemy's space!
"what if Qatar, Egypt and a coalition of Arab states said "enough" and decided to expel all Hamas leaders and support the return of all hostages to Israel, and work together with Israel towards a peaceful resolution? Would that be acceptable for you?"
Yes, this would be perfectly acceptable to me. I want the hostages released (preferably before Hamas or the IDF kills any more of them). I want Hamas to be destroyed. I support any solution that gets those ~130 hostages released that doesn't, for some abstract reason, involve the slaughter of ~24,000 equally innocent people. I don't understand how this math is working differently for anybody else. Heck, I'd even *kind of* understand if the 24,000 innocent deaths were guaranteed to bring those 130 hostages home but it hasn't even achieved that.
But also, your solution is only half a solution.
There would still remain the question of the borders of that Jewish state (a question that Israeli governments have repeatedly refused to answer).
There would still be the question of Israel retuning the land that is not and never hs been officially part of the Jewish state (something that Netanyahu has openly refused to do, even though holding it is against international law).
There would still be the question of the blockade of Gaza and the West Bank barrier and the discrimination against and disenfranchisement of Arabs in Israel.
Israel have proposed precisely zero solutions to any of these major issues. And, in fact, have been openly hostile to addressing them.
The 2 million people in Gaza could not be given safe haven in a neighbouring state. This is only possible to say when you think in numbers and not in human beings. It's practically impossible. Not only that, but it's exactly what the extremists in Netanyahu's government want (and what some of the have proposed). But if those people leave their land, they will never get it back. Just as we saw in the Nakba. A significant part of this conflict is built around Israel's clear desire to take all of the land from the river to the sea.
But that is not Israel's land.
I keep hearing people say that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. I agree. But why is it that the people who say this can't see that the Palestinian people have the same rights? And the they will inevitably fight for them.
I agree with many of the issues you raise. Alas, it is really too late for the international community to raise them NOW! These issues have been brewing for more than 75 years, ever since the creation of the state of Israel and the complete refusal of Palestinians and other Arab countries to accept the two state solution. Look at the partition plan for 1947! The Palestinian side was more than adequate for the one million (or so, as there are no real statistics from that time) Palestinian Muslims who claimed the land, but when they rejected the plan and declared war to Israel the international community didn't raise a finger! They started conflicts with Israel in 1948, 1967, 1971, 1973, 1985, 1987, 2000, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 and now 2023, helped by the Arab neighbors. Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land? The PLO was created in 1964, when Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan, who also controlled the East Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and the Temple Mount! In 1964 there were no Israeli settlements in Gaza, nor in Judea or Samaria (The West Bank) and they had no intention to send their people in a new war! What land did PLO want to "liberate" in 1964? After the 1967 Six Day war, the PLO launched attacks from Jordan. In 1970, to save his country, King Hussein of Jordan expelled PLO to Lebanon (where they helped start the civil war that destroyed the country, the only country with a Christian majority in the Middle East). Wanna guess why Jordan expelled them? Don't take it from me, take it from the horse's mouth, the "brave" Zuheir Mohsen, one of the members of the PLO Executive Council : " The creation of a Palestinian State is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Jaffa and Haifa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine (my note: the wonderful from the river to the sea), we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan". It was NEVER about the land (a land that used to belong to Jews and Palestinians equally)! They just wanted to kill the Jews - just search for all the pogroms Jews went through while they were inhabiting that land before the creation of Israel and the destruction of Jewish settlements between 1920 and 1940: Bnei Yehuda, Tel Hai, Metula, Kfar Saba, Kfar Malal, Kfar Uria, Ruhama, Hartuv, Hulda, Motza, Poria, Gaza, Beit She'an. Nakba was a human tragedy caused by ALL forces involved in the conflict! The 700,000 Palestinians who lost their lives or were forced to flee have their equivalent in the more than 850,000 Jews who were killed or expelled at the same time from the neighbouring Arab states. The difference is that while the Jews found a haven in Israel, the Palestinians were stuffed into refugee camps and denied citizenship wherever they would go. They are and have always been pawns in the effort of Arab countries from the Middle East to refuse any autonomy to Jewish population. Yes, of course, Palestinians have the right to inhabit land that belonged to their ancestors. How far back should we go for that claim? British Empire? Ottoman Empire? Byzantine Empire? Roman Empire? Persian Empire? Achaemenid Empire? Neo-Assyrian Empire? Kingdom of Israel? Egyptian Empire? Akkadian Empire? Frankly, Palestinians will never own that land fully if they continue to claim it belongs to them only, and no Jews will ever be allowed to be there. This is the ONLY fixation political forces in that part of the world have had or will have, and I know it because I've lived there. Once you learn the history of that land and you live in Israel your optics change dramatically. So yes, my friend, that train has left the station a long time ago. That land is not blessed, it's damned by the murderous ideation of a pan-Arabic coalition that wants no Jews in their middle.
"Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land?"
No, I'm not kidding at all! I don't even have to look to history.
As I mentioned to Tom, Benjamin Netanyahu stood on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly, before October 7th, and held up a map with Palestine completely erased and Israel occupying all the land from the "river to the sea".
In October, an Israeli concept paper laid out a plan to remove all of Gaza's population into Egypt (https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a).
In March, another member of Netanyahu's government claimed there was no such thing as the Palestinian people (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-says-no-such-thing-palestinian-people-2023-03-20/) laying claim to Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and even Jordan!
You can find countless videos (this one contains several examples - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61MjES_3iNE&t=101s) of Israeli's insisting that the land is all theirs.
Israeli settlers have been stealing Palestinian land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eac1l1ozfLc), by force, for decades. And with the help of the IDF, have stolen more, in the West Bank, since October 7th. Forcing people from their houses at gunpoint in some cases. Again, this is justified by the claim that the land is theirs and ignored, and sometimes aided, by the Israeli government.
I'm not denying at all that there are Muslim extremists who want to kill Jews. Hamas among them. But let's not pretend Israelis are all moderates.
Netanyahu is not Israel, and you know that very well, please don't be disingenuous! Of course there are extremists in every single country, and maybe in Israel more than elsewhere, for good reasons - you cannot live under the threat of daily rockets thrown at you by a neighbor who hates you to the point of beheading your children, and still love this neighbor. But while this idea of a "greater Israel" is an extremist view in Israel, it is mainstream among Palestinians to hold the view that "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free"... of Jews. The reality is that Jews can live side by side or integrated peacefully with others (20%+ of the ISRAELI population is Muslim or Druze or Christian, holding full rights and representation) but Muslims cannot, when they are in charge. Name any Muslim majority democracy in which non-Muslims exist and have equal status. 950,000 Jews were expelled from middle eastern Muslim countries in the 20th century. Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews cannot return to those places where they had many generations of relatives. But non-Jews can absolutely live in Israel peacefully. Maybe if the citizens of Gaza and West Bank stopped acting like terrorists, led by corrupt and genocidal Palestinian governments in blind rage towards Israeli Jews (vs Egypt or Jordan that also controlled these areas at times), they too could live in freedom to pursue their best lives. How did those Muslim Arab-Israelis come to be there? Because they or their forefathers were not "driven out," but instead chose to remain and become Israeli citizens.
On Arabs living in Israel, here's a piece from Wiki about Jerusalem:
"Under Israeli law, Arab residents of East Jerusalem and Druze residents of the Golan Heights (both Israeli-occupied territories) have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights; this status is upheld due to Israel's effective annexation of the former through the Jerusalem Law of 1980 and of the latter through the Golan Heights Law of 1981.[22] Both groups have largely foregone applying for Israeli citizenship, with the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the Syrians of the Golan Heights mostly holding residency status."
Do you really believe that such an action would result in either:
1 -- Palestinians in the West Bank getting to vote in Israeli elections, and have the right to keep their land in the West Bank?
2 -- A real Palestinian state where residents of the West Bank controlled land ownership and the justice system in that area, which would probably result in many Israeli settlements in the West Bank having to be abandoned?
Because I don't. I don't see Israel granting any rights to Palestinians, either in the WB or Israel proper.
And yet, this means that Israel's 7 million Jews need to keep 5 million non-citizen Palestinians oppressed forever. There's no way that ends well.
You mirror my thoughts pretty clearly here. Dan Senor’s weekly conversations with Israeli’s offers nuanced, sensible, historically accurate discussion.
You also should note that within a few years of the end of WW2, (West) Germans were indeed voting in their own elections, and controlled their own destiny.
Indeed. But they didn't do that just because, they did it because other nations (especially the US) made it possible. We are talking about West Germany, of course, as the Soviets blocked aid from the Marshall Plan to any Communist country in the area, including East Germany. West Germany went on to become intrinsically connected with other countries in the West, especially France, to avoid a subsequent war. This could only be possible in the Middle East if the Arab countries would love their citizens more than they hate the Jews in Israel. So you are partially right, this might not be possible, but not because Israel is opposed to peace. The ball is not in their court on this.
Israel doesn't require democracy in Syria in order to resolve the issue of democracy in Israel.