I agree with many of the issues you raise. Alas, it is really too late for the international community to raise them NOW! These issues have been brewing for more than 75 years, ever since the creation of the state of Israel and the complete refusal of Palestinians and other Arab countries to accept the two state solution. Look at the par…
I agree with many of the issues you raise. Alas, it is really too late for the international community to raise them NOW! These issues have been brewing for more than 75 years, ever since the creation of the state of Israel and the complete refusal of Palestinians and other Arab countries to accept the two state solution. Look at the partition plan for 1947! The Palestinian side was more than adequate for the one million (or so, as there are no real statistics from that time) Palestinian Muslims who claimed the land, but when they rejected the plan and declared war to Israel the international community didn't raise a finger! They started conflicts with Israel in 1948, 1967, 1971, 1973, 1985, 1987, 2000, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 and now 2023, helped by the Arab neighbors. Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land? The PLO was created in 1964, when Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan, who also controlled the East Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and the Temple Mount! In 1964 there were no Israeli settlements in Gaza, nor in Judea or Samaria (The West Bank) and they had no intention to send their people in a new war! What land did PLO want to "liberate" in 1964? After the 1967 Six Day war, the PLO launched attacks from Jordan. In 1970, to save his country, King Hussein of Jordan expelled PLO to Lebanon (where they helped start the civil war that destroyed the country, the only country with a Christian majority in the Middle East). Wanna guess why Jordan expelled them? Don't take it from me, take it from the horse's mouth, the "brave" Zuheir Mohsen, one of the members of the PLO Executive Council : " The creation of a Palestinian State is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Jaffa and Haifa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine (my note: the wonderful from the river to the sea), we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan". It was NEVER about the land (a land that used to belong to Jews and Palestinians equally)! They just wanted to kill the Jews - just search for all the pogroms Jews went through while they were inhabiting that land before the creation of Israel and the destruction of Jewish settlements between 1920 and 1940: Bnei Yehuda, Tel Hai, Metula, Kfar Saba, Kfar Malal, Kfar Uria, Ruhama, Hartuv, Hulda, Motza, Poria, Gaza, Beit She'an. Nakba was a human tragedy caused by ALL forces involved in the conflict! The 700,000 Palestinians who lost their lives or were forced to flee have their equivalent in the more than 850,000 Jews who were killed or expelled at the same time from the neighbouring Arab states. The difference is that while the Jews found a haven in Israel, the Palestinians were stuffed into refugee camps and denied citizenship wherever they would go. They are and have always been pawns in the effort of Arab countries from the Middle East to refuse any autonomy to Jewish population. Yes, of course, Palestinians have the right to inhabit land that belonged to their ancestors. How far back should we go for that claim? British Empire? Ottoman Empire? Byzantine Empire? Roman Empire? Persian Empire? Achaemenid Empire? Neo-Assyrian Empire? Kingdom of Israel? Egyptian Empire? Akkadian Empire? Frankly, Palestinians will never own that land fully if they continue to claim it belongs to them only, and no Jews will ever be allowed to be there. This is the ONLY fixation political forces in that part of the world have had or will have, and I know it because I've lived there. Once you learn the history of that land and you live in Israel your optics change dramatically. So yes, my friend, that train has left the station a long time ago. That land is not blessed, it's damned by the murderous ideation of a pan-Arabic coalition that wants no Jews in their middle.
"Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land?"
No, I'm not kidding at all! I don't even have to look to history.
As I mentioned to Tom, Benjamin Netanyahu stood on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly, before October 7th, and held up a map with Palestine completely erased and Israel occupying all the land from the "river to the sea".
Israeli settlers have been stealing Palestinian land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eac1l1ozfLc), by force, for decades. And with the help of the IDF, have stolen more, in the West Bank, since October 7th. Forcing people from their houses at gunpoint in some cases. Again, this is justified by the claim that the land is theirs and ignored, and sometimes aided, by the Israeli government.
I'm not denying at all that there are Muslim extremists who want to kill Jews. Hamas among them. But let's not pretend Israelis are all moderates.
Netanyahu is not Israel, and you know that very well, please don't be disingenuous! Of course there are extremists in every single country, and maybe in Israel more than elsewhere, for good reasons - you cannot live under the threat of daily rockets thrown at you by a neighbor who hates you to the point of beheading your children, and still love this neighbor. But while this idea of a "greater Israel" is an extremist view in Israel, it is mainstream among Palestinians to hold the view that "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free"... of Jews. The reality is that Jews can live side by side or integrated peacefully with others (20%+ of the ISRAELI population is Muslim or Druze or Christian, holding full rights and representation) but Muslims cannot, when they are in charge. Name any Muslim majority democracy in which non-Muslims exist and have equal status. 950,000 Jews were expelled from middle eastern Muslim countries in the 20th century. Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews cannot return to those places where they had many generations of relatives. But non-Jews can absolutely live in Israel peacefully. Maybe if the citizens of Gaza and West Bank stopped acting like terrorists, led by corrupt and genocidal Palestinian governments in blind rage towards Israeli Jews (vs Egypt or Jordan that also controlled these areas at times), they too could live in freedom to pursue their best lives. How did those Muslim Arab-Israelis come to be there? Because they or their forefathers were not "driven out," but instead chose to remain and become Israeli citizens.
On Arabs living in Israel, here's a piece from Wiki about Jerusalem:
"Under Israeli law, Arab residents of East Jerusalem and Druze residents of the Golan Heights (both Israeli-occupied territories) have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights; this status is upheld due to Israel's effective annexation of the former through the Jerusalem Law of 1980 and of the latter through the Golan Heights Law of 1981.[22] Both groups have largely foregone applying for Israeli citizenship, with the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the Syrians of the Golan Heights mostly holding residency status."
I agree with many of the issues you raise. Alas, it is really too late for the international community to raise them NOW! These issues have been brewing for more than 75 years, ever since the creation of the state of Israel and the complete refusal of Palestinians and other Arab countries to accept the two state solution. Look at the partition plan for 1947! The Palestinian side was more than adequate for the one million (or so, as there are no real statistics from that time) Palestinian Muslims who claimed the land, but when they rejected the plan and declared war to Israel the international community didn't raise a finger! They started conflicts with Israel in 1948, 1967, 1971, 1973, 1985, 1987, 2000, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 and now 2023, helped by the Arab neighbors. Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land? The PLO was created in 1964, when Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan, who also controlled the East Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and the Temple Mount! In 1964 there were no Israeli settlements in Gaza, nor in Judea or Samaria (The West Bank) and they had no intention to send their people in a new war! What land did PLO want to "liberate" in 1964? After the 1967 Six Day war, the PLO launched attacks from Jordan. In 1970, to save his country, King Hussein of Jordan expelled PLO to Lebanon (where they helped start the civil war that destroyed the country, the only country with a Christian majority in the Middle East). Wanna guess why Jordan expelled them? Don't take it from me, take it from the horse's mouth, the "brave" Zuheir Mohsen, one of the members of the PLO Executive Council : " The creation of a Palestinian State is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Jaffa and Haifa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine (my note: the wonderful from the river to the sea), we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan". It was NEVER about the land (a land that used to belong to Jews and Palestinians equally)! They just wanted to kill the Jews - just search for all the pogroms Jews went through while they were inhabiting that land before the creation of Israel and the destruction of Jewish settlements between 1920 and 1940: Bnei Yehuda, Tel Hai, Metula, Kfar Saba, Kfar Malal, Kfar Uria, Ruhama, Hartuv, Hulda, Motza, Poria, Gaza, Beit She'an. Nakba was a human tragedy caused by ALL forces involved in the conflict! The 700,000 Palestinians who lost their lives or were forced to flee have their equivalent in the more than 850,000 Jews who were killed or expelled at the same time from the neighbouring Arab states. The difference is that while the Jews found a haven in Israel, the Palestinians were stuffed into refugee camps and denied citizenship wherever they would go. They are and have always been pawns in the effort of Arab countries from the Middle East to refuse any autonomy to Jewish population. Yes, of course, Palestinians have the right to inhabit land that belonged to their ancestors. How far back should we go for that claim? British Empire? Ottoman Empire? Byzantine Empire? Roman Empire? Persian Empire? Achaemenid Empire? Neo-Assyrian Empire? Kingdom of Israel? Egyptian Empire? Akkadian Empire? Frankly, Palestinians will never own that land fully if they continue to claim it belongs to them only, and no Jews will ever be allowed to be there. This is the ONLY fixation political forces in that part of the world have had or will have, and I know it because I've lived there. Once you learn the history of that land and you live in Israel your optics change dramatically. So yes, my friend, that train has left the station a long time ago. That land is not blessed, it's damned by the murderous ideation of a pan-Arabic coalition that wants no Jews in their middle.
"Are you kidding when you claim Israel has the desire to take all the land?"
No, I'm not kidding at all! I don't even have to look to history.
As I mentioned to Tom, Benjamin Netanyahu stood on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly, before October 7th, and held up a map with Palestine completely erased and Israel occupying all the land from the "river to the sea".
In October, an Israeli concept paper laid out a plan to remove all of Gaza's population into Egypt (https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a).
In March, another member of Netanyahu's government claimed there was no such thing as the Palestinian people (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-says-no-such-thing-palestinian-people-2023-03-20/) laying claim to Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and even Jordan!
You can find countless videos (this one contains several examples - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61MjES_3iNE&t=101s) of Israeli's insisting that the land is all theirs.
Israeli settlers have been stealing Palestinian land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eac1l1ozfLc), by force, for decades. And with the help of the IDF, have stolen more, in the West Bank, since October 7th. Forcing people from their houses at gunpoint in some cases. Again, this is justified by the claim that the land is theirs and ignored, and sometimes aided, by the Israeli government.
I'm not denying at all that there are Muslim extremists who want to kill Jews. Hamas among them. But let's not pretend Israelis are all moderates.
Netanyahu is not Israel, and you know that very well, please don't be disingenuous! Of course there are extremists in every single country, and maybe in Israel more than elsewhere, for good reasons - you cannot live under the threat of daily rockets thrown at you by a neighbor who hates you to the point of beheading your children, and still love this neighbor. But while this idea of a "greater Israel" is an extremist view in Israel, it is mainstream among Palestinians to hold the view that "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free"... of Jews. The reality is that Jews can live side by side or integrated peacefully with others (20%+ of the ISRAELI population is Muslim or Druze or Christian, holding full rights and representation) but Muslims cannot, when they are in charge. Name any Muslim majority democracy in which non-Muslims exist and have equal status. 950,000 Jews were expelled from middle eastern Muslim countries in the 20th century. Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews cannot return to those places where they had many generations of relatives. But non-Jews can absolutely live in Israel peacefully. Maybe if the citizens of Gaza and West Bank stopped acting like terrorists, led by corrupt and genocidal Palestinian governments in blind rage towards Israeli Jews (vs Egypt or Jordan that also controlled these areas at times), they too could live in freedom to pursue their best lives. How did those Muslim Arab-Israelis come to be there? Because they or their forefathers were not "driven out," but instead chose to remain and become Israeli citizens.
On Arabs living in Israel, here's a piece from Wiki about Jerusalem:
"Under Israeli law, Arab residents of East Jerusalem and Druze residents of the Golan Heights (both Israeli-occupied territories) have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights; this status is upheld due to Israel's effective annexation of the former through the Jerusalem Law of 1980 and of the latter through the Golan Heights Law of 1981.[22] Both groups have largely foregone applying for Israeli citizenship, with the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the Syrians of the Golan Heights mostly holding residency status."