Hmm, I struggle with this idea a bit. I mean I agree, race isn't real and we'd do well to stop pretending it is. But racism isn't based on ancestry--we all share a common ancestor after all--it's based on group affiliation, and that affiliation is based on the colour of our skin.
When we get down to it, I don't think any racists are givi…
Hmm, I struggle with this idea a bit. I mean I agree, race isn't real and we'd do well to stop pretending it is. But racism isn't based on ancestry--we all share a common ancestor after all--it's based on group affiliation, and that affiliation is based on the colour of our skin.
When we get down to it, I don't think any racists are giving much thought to the amount of diversity in "black" people or "white" people. They take a glance at the colour of somebody's skin and they're immediately oppressors or colonisers or criminals or subhumans.
Above all, they're not "one of us".
I think that the notion of shared identity based on skin colour underpins racism, and it's weird considering how trivially it can be proven false. So maybe a double standard based on skin colour? It seems strange to pretend that's not what this is really about.
I'm still in the middle of the book, but I think what they are saying is that, we've come to believe race is real, because of what they call racecraft, makes it seem real, that its a conjure game without a conjurer, a bunch of interviews with them, the Fields sisters, are on Jacobin if you want to check it out. They go a bit further than saying race is a "social construct" If I'm understanding what they are saying correctly, a would be racist looks at someone's skin and other attributes, makes a decision about one's ancestry (which it and of itself has a bunch of associations) and then practice a double standard based on that, and that many of us are doing this, reproducing this, kinda all the time, so much so that we are living in a collective conjure (hence the use of the metaphor of witchcraft) They tease out differences between bigotry and attitutdes and racism (which they see as acts/practices) They seem to disagree that internal sense of identity either as white or something else or as a racist has all to do with the practice of racism and they give a bunch of examples. I'm not an expert on what they call Racecraft, but its a pretty compelling argument when you are inside of it. They talk a LOT about political economy as well...to think through inequality as they are marxists. Its a framework that helps understand how people come in and out of being the victims of racism, depending on time, location etc. My southern Italian ancestors are good case study, at one point they were perceived as not white, something other and experienced racism, then that shifted over time between the 1920s and 1960s, it still happens to some of us, depending on how we appear. Jews are another example...
Yeah it's true. There are all kinds of subtle ways we enforce the belief in race through our words and stereotypes. And I mean, statistically there are differences between various ancestries. It's the ascribing of meaning to those differences where we run into trouble.
As for an internal sense of identity, I really hate that concept as applied to race or gender or anything else. I can't make any sense of it, and indeed think it's a prime example of "racecraft" (or gender stereotyping). There's no such thing as "feeling black" unless you limit blackness to a box of certain allowed things and go from there. It's crazy to me that some black people so eagerly embrace this idea.
Looking forward to hearing the cases they make for this.
Yeah, the marxists (like the Fields and Adolph Reed) are big on their analytical categories and the historical and capitalist why of race, they call it ascriptive identity category, like you mentioned. I think their work is the key to undoing a lot of this antiracism mess, as they show why its so popular, it serves neoliberalism
it should also be noted, MLK was moving in this direction, in 68, talking about redistributive economics as the way to deal with inequality amongst blacks. So, we come back around to Kingian politics and takes as ultimately being more radical really, than nationalist takes.
" I think that the notion of shared identity based on skin colour underpins racism, and it's weird considering how trivially it can be proven false."
Sure.
"So maybe a double standard based on skin colour? It seems strange to pretend that's not what this is really about."
Yeah, I see this in whites and Blacks. Kendi? Kimberlé Crenshaw? I'm guessing a fair percentage of Blacks? Not gonna attempt to define "fair number," at this time.
While insisting that Blacks be looked at as individuals, instead of a monolith, they simultaneously stress the importance of "the lived experience" of Blacks. Implying ALL Blacks. Their shared monolithic experience of racism. While, at the same time, CHOOSING to see whites as a monolith. VERY strange, indeed.
Yep, I couldn't agree more. Though I will say, when I see a problem in both white people and black people, I usually try to point out how both sides manifest that problem. You seem to have focused exclusively on what some black people are doing wrong here.
Again, I agree with your points, just seems a little one-sided.
But I'll further ask You whether You see this problem of having a double standard primarily in white people or Black people. As a percentage. You see, I'm GUESSING that, as a percentage, You think white people are more likely to have a double standard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
First, I think it's really unhelpful to try to ascribe percentages to this kind of thing. Neither of us could possibly support whatever number we chose statistically. We'd just be picking a number out of the air based on our feelings.
Second, we'd have to define what we're talking about when we talk about racism. Mean articles on the internet? Yep, almost exclusively anti-white. I'd be hard pressed to even find anything written online against black people.
Criticism of "whiteness" in public discourse? Again, the majority of that kind of stereotyping is anti-white. This kind of stuff is in the air, a generalised feeling that white people are collectively guilty for something. I'm sure all white people can feel it, but very few white people have experienced any of it personally. There is, in fact, data to support this. 55% of white Americans think that there's racism against white people, yet less than 20% can give a single example of racism targeted against them personally.
*This* is the distinction I'm trying to make. Black people, I think, are far more likely to experience racism that materially affects their lives. White people are more likely to experience racism that affects their feelings. And this only if they spend too much time online.
White people who don't read Medium or use Twitter and aren't college age will have had almost all of the current nonsense pass them by. But black people? There's no escape. As I wrote in an article not long ago, *every black person* has a story about racism. Not a mean blog post on Medium. Somebody, in their actual daily life, who discriminated against them personally. Again, very few white people have experienced this.
There are ways in which this is changing. Especially in schools. Which is why I've spent more time recently talking about anti-white racism in schools. I'm sickened by what I'm seeing there. These white children are experiencing racism which is actually affecting their lives negatively. But black people experience this all the time. And have been for generations.
Hmm, I struggle with this idea a bit. I mean I agree, race isn't real and we'd do well to stop pretending it is. But racism isn't based on ancestry--we all share a common ancestor after all--it's based on group affiliation, and that affiliation is based on the colour of our skin.
When we get down to it, I don't think any racists are giving much thought to the amount of diversity in "black" people or "white" people. They take a glance at the colour of somebody's skin and they're immediately oppressors or colonisers or criminals or subhumans.
Above all, they're not "one of us".
I think that the notion of shared identity based on skin colour underpins racism, and it's weird considering how trivially it can be proven false. So maybe a double standard based on skin colour? It seems strange to pretend that's not what this is really about.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nwCSs0T5Tbk This gets into it all a bit, esp from minute 36/37 on
I'm still in the middle of the book, but I think what they are saying is that, we've come to believe race is real, because of what they call racecraft, makes it seem real, that its a conjure game without a conjurer, a bunch of interviews with them, the Fields sisters, are on Jacobin if you want to check it out. They go a bit further than saying race is a "social construct" If I'm understanding what they are saying correctly, a would be racist looks at someone's skin and other attributes, makes a decision about one's ancestry (which it and of itself has a bunch of associations) and then practice a double standard based on that, and that many of us are doing this, reproducing this, kinda all the time, so much so that we are living in a collective conjure (hence the use of the metaphor of witchcraft) They tease out differences between bigotry and attitutdes and racism (which they see as acts/practices) They seem to disagree that internal sense of identity either as white or something else or as a racist has all to do with the practice of racism and they give a bunch of examples. I'm not an expert on what they call Racecraft, but its a pretty compelling argument when you are inside of it. They talk a LOT about political economy as well...to think through inequality as they are marxists. Its a framework that helps understand how people come in and out of being the victims of racism, depending on time, location etc. My southern Italian ancestors are good case study, at one point they were perceived as not white, something other and experienced racism, then that shifted over time between the 1920s and 1960s, it still happens to some of us, depending on how we appear. Jews are another example...
Yeah it's true. There are all kinds of subtle ways we enforce the belief in race through our words and stereotypes. And I mean, statistically there are differences between various ancestries. It's the ascribing of meaning to those differences where we run into trouble.
As for an internal sense of identity, I really hate that concept as applied to race or gender or anything else. I can't make any sense of it, and indeed think it's a prime example of "racecraft" (or gender stereotyping). There's no such thing as "feeling black" unless you limit blackness to a box of certain allowed things and go from there. It's crazy to me that some black people so eagerly embrace this idea.
Looking forward to hearing the cases they make for this.
Yeah, the marxists (like the Fields and Adolph Reed) are big on their analytical categories and the historical and capitalist why of race, they call it ascriptive identity category, like you mentioned. I think their work is the key to undoing a lot of this antiracism mess, as they show why its so popular, it serves neoliberalism
it should also be noted, MLK was moving in this direction, in 68, talking about redistributive economics as the way to deal with inequality amongst blacks. So, we come back around to Kingian politics and takes as ultimately being more radical really, than nationalist takes.
You're always offering fascinating bits of further research! Thanks for this and for the video link. I'll definitely have a look.
" I think that the notion of shared identity based on skin colour underpins racism, and it's weird considering how trivially it can be proven false."
Sure.
"So maybe a double standard based on skin colour? It seems strange to pretend that's not what this is really about."
Yeah, I see this in whites and Blacks. Kendi? Kimberlé Crenshaw? I'm guessing a fair percentage of Blacks? Not gonna attempt to define "fair number," at this time.
While insisting that Blacks be looked at as individuals, instead of a monolith, they simultaneously stress the importance of "the lived experience" of Blacks. Implying ALL Blacks. Their shared monolithic experience of racism. While, at the same time, CHOOSING to see whites as a monolith. VERY strange, indeed.
Yep, I couldn't agree more. Though I will say, when I see a problem in both white people and black people, I usually try to point out how both sides manifest that problem. You seem to have focused exclusively on what some black people are doing wrong here.
Again, I agree with your points, just seems a little one-sided.
"Yeah, I see this in whites and Blacks."
But I'll further ask You whether You see this problem of having a double standard primarily in white people or Black people. As a percentage. You see, I'm GUESSING that, as a percentage, You think white people are more likely to have a double standard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
There are two problems here.
First, I think it's really unhelpful to try to ascribe percentages to this kind of thing. Neither of us could possibly support whatever number we chose statistically. We'd just be picking a number out of the air based on our feelings.
Second, we'd have to define what we're talking about when we talk about racism. Mean articles on the internet? Yep, almost exclusively anti-white. I'd be hard pressed to even find anything written online against black people.
Criticism of "whiteness" in public discourse? Again, the majority of that kind of stereotyping is anti-white. This kind of stuff is in the air, a generalised feeling that white people are collectively guilty for something. I'm sure all white people can feel it, but very few white people have experienced any of it personally. There is, in fact, data to support this. 55% of white Americans think that there's racism against white people, yet less than 20% can give a single example of racism targeted against them personally.
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-americans-think-theyre-discriminated-against
*This* is the distinction I'm trying to make. Black people, I think, are far more likely to experience racism that materially affects their lives. White people are more likely to experience racism that affects their feelings. And this only if they spend too much time online.
White people who don't read Medium or use Twitter and aren't college age will have had almost all of the current nonsense pass them by. But black people? There's no escape. As I wrote in an article not long ago, *every black person* has a story about racism. Not a mean blog post on Medium. Somebody, in their actual daily life, who discriminated against them personally. Again, very few white people have experienced this.
There are ways in which this is changing. Especially in schools. Which is why I've spent more time recently talking about anti-white racism in schools. I'm sickened by what I'm seeing there. These white children are experiencing racism which is actually affecting their lives negatively. But black people experience this all the time. And have been for generations.