You do realize that they, often with justification, say the same about progressives. You even begrudgingly admit that they are sometimes right. Thor should strike progressives with lightning for calling themselves liberals. We live in a world where tribal hostility is so extreme that hyperbole and straw man arguments are the norm from al…
You do realize that they, often with justification, say the same about progressives. You even begrudgingly admit that they are sometimes right.
Thor should strike progressives with lightning for calling themselves liberals. We live in a world where tribal hostility is so extreme that hyperbole and straw man arguments are the norm from all sides when things become heated.
It would be comforting if it were so one-sided that I could chose a tribe to mindlessly agree with, but I don't seek that kind of comfort or see it as one-sided as the partisans. Neither do you, though it doesn't always show. You are not about show and speak Frankly.
You know that I completely repudiate a lot of what people are calling “left” now. But I don’t see the symmetry you mention. Sure there are a few progressive trolls but on the right that’s all there are.
Woke is MAGA in a mirror. Just as rigid, just as orthodox.
I'm going to sleep now too, but I can't help but say that the idea that the majority of conservatives are racists, MAGAs and such is from the same set of molds as the idea that black people are all criminal thugs, liberals are all idiots, etc. We can of course find plenty of examples to confirm our beliefs, but we can also find examples that don't.
As an aside, we all have bias, but it does not mean we are speaking falsehood. Effective propaganda is a mixture of truth and lies. People focus on the part that supports their views. I have never claimed there is no truth coming from any "side."
As I tell my MAGA stop the steal friend, Trump won is a fool's errand. If Jesus Christ came down from the heavens to declare that the election was a crooked as a dog's hind leg the fact checkers would declare it false, the courts would say Jesus has no standing because he is not a US citizen and throw it out. The Democrats would declare that the courts found no evidence, though they didn't actually look. American must believe that fraud and corruption only happens in other countries but not America because we are special. A cellophane cat could run thru hell and not get scorched before the election would be overturned and Trump be reinstated into the office of POTUS. They just look idiotic dreaming that that could happen.
Was there voter fraud? According to the courts, yes, but was it enough tip the election? Who knows? I don't have a dog in that fight. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search
Election fraud claims are not in the interest of the liberal side until it is. Is it delusion to claim there is no evidence of election fraud in America when there are convictions for it?
This bothsides stuff is beneath you, Dave. Fraudulent votes are in single digits and they're all Republicans.
Heritage? Seriously? Self-respect won't let me click that. "Who knows?" You do. Biden got seven million more votes. Half the country would have to be in on the conspiracy and nobody breaking silence. Please tell me you don't believe this.
Yes we all have bias, so what, that's orthogonal to dishonesty, of which the right has oceans to the left's thimbles. Even those lunatics at Fox knew Trump lost but they went before the cameras and lied anyway, and they're still lying.
Nobody is saying the liberal side is angelic in its veracity but "both sides" is unforgivably sloppy. The Fox audience gets enraged when they *aren't* being lied to.
My point was that they have chosen the wrong hill to die on. If they were correct that Trump won it wouldn't matter, nothing will happen. Don't confuse that thought with me thinking Trump won. I do look at things that I don't agree with (ht Sun Tzu) and your apparent broad-brush dismissal of sources to your political right scares me a bit. The link to small fries being prosecuted for election fraud was not an attempt to claim that the election was stolen (I sure hope that you know that), but rather some insight into how people can make leaps in their opinions = election fraud exists, therefore the election was stolen.
A bit of background. I was trained in riot control while on active duty. Unforgettable words from the training, "They are your fellow Americans. Use the minimum force necessary, 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗻𝗲𝗰𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗮𝗿𝘆." I was in Vietnam when the 1969 Moratorium took place but one of the Marines in the training who was stateside was in Washington DC for that event for the "all that is necessary." Thank Zeus it wasn't. How 6 Jan 21 was handled was shocking to me.
Jan 6 was just like in the training all those years ago. Mostly protestors, but some agitators there to turn a protest into a riot. In this case, I suspect that they knew who they were while they were planning. The National Guard was not utilized. Where were the Marines?
Shortly after the event, people sent links to me that showed government people unlocking doors and apparently directing people to the chambers. They were quickly scrubbed from the internet. Now, two years later they are reappearing on Fox. I don't know who directed them to give them easy entry. Could have been Trump or trump loyalists for all we know. It should give anyone pause who knows the standard protocols for defending Federal offices.
Did the investigation attempt to determine who the Feds were that let them in and led them? They sure as hell should have. If I was running the investigation, it would have been at the top of my list. Now that it's too late to scrub them again, will we get answers about that question?
None of what I just wrote gives any credibility to the notion that the election was stolen. It does shine a light on how extraordinarily strange the response was, and why the hell the answer to who they were is not a part of the revealed findings. It does make it odd that Fox would show it since it is potentially damning about Trump. We don't know, or has it been revealed what was found out about that? It should damn someone(s).
Did Fox say it was a tourist excursion or it looked like one? I haven't watched their commentary on the videos, but hyperbole is the norm.
The newsertainment shows know their audience and know that their sponsors know the audience. And that is certainly left and right since commercial newsertainment is about money. That's not giving Fox, or anyone else a pass, just an acknowledgement of how things work. "Trump won" is the most egregious but disingenuous/half-truth coverage has no monopoly source.
"your apparent broad-brush dismissal of sources to your political right"
It's not as simple as that. I don't have time to read everything and I do have some respect for my own time and Heritage Foundation is simply below the salt. Fer chrissake, they believe in "market forces." They're nuts.
Let me draw a parallel. I don't know it this is still observed but back in the HIV epidemic I went to donate blood and was turned down because I was gay. OK, nobody ever said that all gay men were HIV+ and not all HIV+ men were gay but the correlation was robust enough that it was simply prudent to not take blood donations from 5% of potential male blood donors.
Not everything on heritage.org is going to be batshit right-wing economics (one of the very lowest bars there is) but the same prudence applies there. Heritage promotes apologia for some of the most unhinged conservative ideas there are. And frankly I am going through soe serious emotional challenges right now and don't need to be aroused to murderous anger by reading this stuff. So I deliberately make myself a little less open-minded for my own mental health as well as out of respect for my increasingly limited time.
You know me well enough to know that I'm not too tribal in my liberalism. I'm a gay liberal who would gleefully throw the Woke "unterm Rad," I hold beliefs about personal responsibility that don't dovetail with the infinite tolerance and—ugh—inclusivity so in vogue.
And it's simply part of my outlook that I draw lines perhaps a little too comfortably. There are ideas like creationism, the morality of abortion, the history of the singular they, Lafferism, that I am unwilling to ever discuss again.
I don't wish to add to your stress or divert the conversation further. Someday we'll have to discuss economics since that is where the "left" seems to be the most in denial of reality to me. Your disdain for "market forces" always gives me pause. Another time, stay mellow now.
I was talking about conservatives active online. To a close approximation they’re all trolls. I’ve been doing this since the early 90s and it’s always been that way.
The civil ones just repeat the lies with less confrontational words. Instead of “Trump won” they say “doubts about election integrity.”
The coming Republican dog fight will be interesting. DeSantis may be more effective in pushing Trump aside than any Democrat. The MAGA Trumpsters are more vocal on-line, but he may have less appeal than people think. Trump's greatest strength is progressives. If the more liberal Democrats can push the progressives aside it will be hard to elect a Republican. I didn't even vote in the midterms. I would have just written in no acceptable candidate on all of them.
I agree that the woke shit is a real danger. Nominally liberal parents will vote Republican to protect their kids from the surgeons and even aside from the malignant "trans" shit, there is the politically potent Annoying Factor. I get equality and fairness, I don't see any point in this inclusion and gender-neutrality nonsense.
What will kill DeSantis is the camera. He is a deeply unlikeable guy and he's just too extreme in his intolerance and desire for control.
Trump has gone batshit crazy, first losing the election and then all the legal troubles. When someone finally gets around to slapping the cuffs on him he's going to literally go nuts.
You do realize that they, often with justification, say the same about progressives. You even begrudgingly admit that they are sometimes right.
Thor should strike progressives with lightning for calling themselves liberals. We live in a world where tribal hostility is so extreme that hyperbole and straw man arguments are the norm from all sides when things become heated.
It would be comforting if it were so one-sided that I could chose a tribe to mindlessly agree with, but I don't seek that kind of comfort or see it as one-sided as the partisans. Neither do you, though it doesn't always show. You are not about show and speak Frankly.
You know that I completely repudiate a lot of what people are calling “left” now. But I don’t see the symmetry you mention. Sure there are a few progressive trolls but on the right that’s all there are.
Woke is MAGA in a mirror. Just as rigid, just as orthodox.
More later I’m going back to sleep.
I'm going to sleep now too, but I can't help but say that the idea that the majority of conservatives are racists, MAGAs and such is from the same set of molds as the idea that black people are all criminal thugs, liberals are all idiots, etc. We can of course find plenty of examples to confirm our beliefs, but we can also find examples that don't.
Instead of me posting something you will call biased, suppose you go out and look up how many Republicans believe that Trump actually won in 2020.
And find the equivalent delusion on the liberal side.
As an aside, we all have bias, but it does not mean we are speaking falsehood. Effective propaganda is a mixture of truth and lies. People focus on the part that supports their views. I have never claimed there is no truth coming from any "side."
As I tell my MAGA stop the steal friend, Trump won is a fool's errand. If Jesus Christ came down from the heavens to declare that the election was a crooked as a dog's hind leg the fact checkers would declare it false, the courts would say Jesus has no standing because he is not a US citizen and throw it out. The Democrats would declare that the courts found no evidence, though they didn't actually look. American must believe that fraud and corruption only happens in other countries but not America because we are special. A cellophane cat could run thru hell and not get scorched before the election would be overturned and Trump be reinstated into the office of POTUS. They just look idiotic dreaming that that could happen.
Was there voter fraud? According to the courts, yes, but was it enough tip the election? Who knows? I don't have a dog in that fight. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search
Election fraud claims are not in the interest of the liberal side until it is. Is it delusion to claim there is no evidence of election fraud in America when there are convictions for it?
This bothsides stuff is beneath you, Dave. Fraudulent votes are in single digits and they're all Republicans.
Heritage? Seriously? Self-respect won't let me click that. "Who knows?" You do. Biden got seven million more votes. Half the country would have to be in on the conspiracy and nobody breaking silence. Please tell me you don't believe this.
Yes we all have bias, so what, that's orthogonal to dishonesty, of which the right has oceans to the left's thimbles. Even those lunatics at Fox knew Trump lost but they went before the cameras and lied anyway, and they're still lying.
Nobody is saying the liberal side is angelic in its veracity but "both sides" is unforgivably sloppy. The Fox audience gets enraged when they *aren't* being lied to.
Was 1/6/2021 a tourist excursion?
You're scaring me, Dave.
My point was that they have chosen the wrong hill to die on. If they were correct that Trump won it wouldn't matter, nothing will happen. Don't confuse that thought with me thinking Trump won. I do look at things that I don't agree with (ht Sun Tzu) and your apparent broad-brush dismissal of sources to your political right scares me a bit. The link to small fries being prosecuted for election fraud was not an attempt to claim that the election was stolen (I sure hope that you know that), but rather some insight into how people can make leaps in their opinions = election fraud exists, therefore the election was stolen.
A bit of background. I was trained in riot control while on active duty. Unforgettable words from the training, "They are your fellow Americans. Use the minimum force necessary, 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗻𝗲𝗰𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗮𝗿𝘆." I was in Vietnam when the 1969 Moratorium took place but one of the Marines in the training who was stateside was in Washington DC for that event for the "all that is necessary." Thank Zeus it wasn't. How 6 Jan 21 was handled was shocking to me.
Jan 6 was just like in the training all those years ago. Mostly protestors, but some agitators there to turn a protest into a riot. In this case, I suspect that they knew who they were while they were planning. The National Guard was not utilized. Where were the Marines?
Shortly after the event, people sent links to me that showed government people unlocking doors and apparently directing people to the chambers. They were quickly scrubbed from the internet. Now, two years later they are reappearing on Fox. I don't know who directed them to give them easy entry. Could have been Trump or trump loyalists for all we know. It should give anyone pause who knows the standard protocols for defending Federal offices.
Did the investigation attempt to determine who the Feds were that let them in and led them? They sure as hell should have. If I was running the investigation, it would have been at the top of my list. Now that it's too late to scrub them again, will we get answers about that question?
None of what I just wrote gives any credibility to the notion that the election was stolen. It does shine a light on how extraordinarily strange the response was, and why the hell the answer to who they were is not a part of the revealed findings. It does make it odd that Fox would show it since it is potentially damning about Trump. We don't know, or has it been revealed what was found out about that? It should damn someone(s).
Did Fox say it was a tourist excursion or it looked like one? I haven't watched their commentary on the videos, but hyperbole is the norm.
The newsertainment shows know their audience and know that their sponsors know the audience. And that is certainly left and right since commercial newsertainment is about money. That's not giving Fox, or anyone else a pass, just an acknowledgement of how things work. "Trump won" is the most egregious but disingenuous/half-truth coverage has no monopoly source.
"your apparent broad-brush dismissal of sources to your political right"
It's not as simple as that. I don't have time to read everything and I do have some respect for my own time and Heritage Foundation is simply below the salt. Fer chrissake, they believe in "market forces." They're nuts.
Let me draw a parallel. I don't know it this is still observed but back in the HIV epidemic I went to donate blood and was turned down because I was gay. OK, nobody ever said that all gay men were HIV+ and not all HIV+ men were gay but the correlation was robust enough that it was simply prudent to not take blood donations from 5% of potential male blood donors.
Not everything on heritage.org is going to be batshit right-wing economics (one of the very lowest bars there is) but the same prudence applies there. Heritage promotes apologia for some of the most unhinged conservative ideas there are. And frankly I am going through soe serious emotional challenges right now and don't need to be aroused to murderous anger by reading this stuff. So I deliberately make myself a little less open-minded for my own mental health as well as out of respect for my increasingly limited time.
You know me well enough to know that I'm not too tribal in my liberalism. I'm a gay liberal who would gleefully throw the Woke "unterm Rad," I hold beliefs about personal responsibility that don't dovetail with the infinite tolerance and—ugh—inclusivity so in vogue.
And it's simply part of my outlook that I draw lines perhaps a little too comfortably. There are ideas like creationism, the morality of abortion, the history of the singular they, Lafferism, that I am unwilling to ever discuss again.
I don't wish to add to your stress or divert the conversation further. Someday we'll have to discuss economics since that is where the "left" seems to be the most in denial of reality to me. Your disdain for "market forces" always gives me pause. Another time, stay mellow now.
I was talking about conservatives active online. To a close approximation they’re all trolls. I’ve been doing this since the early 90s and it’s always been that way.
The civil ones just repeat the lies with less confrontational words. Instead of “Trump won” they say “doubts about election integrity.”
The coming Republican dog fight will be interesting. DeSantis may be more effective in pushing Trump aside than any Democrat. The MAGA Trumpsters are more vocal on-line, but he may have less appeal than people think. Trump's greatest strength is progressives. If the more liberal Democrats can push the progressives aside it will be hard to elect a Republican. I didn't even vote in the midterms. I would have just written in no acceptable candidate on all of them.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/desantis-vs-trump-pits-accomplishments-against-narrative-conservative-election-2024-republican-woke-populist-candidate-florida-tallahassee-e8b473dc?st=olxrxjklq4kyrh0&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
I agree that the woke shit is a real danger. Nominally liberal parents will vote Republican to protect their kids from the surgeons and even aside from the malignant "trans" shit, there is the politically potent Annoying Factor. I get equality and fairness, I don't see any point in this inclusion and gender-neutrality nonsense.
What will kill DeSantis is the camera. He is a deeply unlikeable guy and he's just too extreme in his intolerance and desire for control.
Trump has gone batshit crazy, first losing the election and then all the legal troubles. When someone finally gets around to slapping the cuffs on him he's going to literally go nuts.