Hey Steve. I know you get probably a million comments a day and I don't expect a response to this. I came to your substack after an unpleasant Instagram interaction today seeking clarity in your writing. In your original piece that spurred this one, you said "instead of condemning those who judge us by the color of our skin, we gleefully…
Hey Steve. I know you get probably a million comments a day and I don't expect a response to this. I came to your substack after an unpleasant Instagram interaction today seeking clarity in your writing. In your original piece that spurred this one, you said "instead of condemning those who judge us by the color of our skin, we gleefully judge other people by the color of theirs." This is my primary confusion with so much of what is happening in racial dialogues right now. The interaction I had on Instagram is just churning around in my head so much, and it's sort of making me feel crazy.
So today on Instagram, I saw a post by a guy who has "anti-identity politics" in his bio. He had posted something, which I disagree with, with the caption that said "Let's discuss!" So... I posted my take on what he said. Essentially he was arguing that when non-vegans say that a vegan agenda is harmful to indigenous peoples, they are just using indigenous people to maintain their immoral pleasure of eating meat. In my line of work, I am in near constant contact with people (indigenous, peasant farmers, activists, all kinds of people) who are demanding for NGOs in conservation and corporations in agriculture to decolonize their agendas, many of whom have intersections in the vegan movement/animal rights groups (i.e. Bill Gates & AGRA or the vegan Norwegian billionaire who created the plant-based EAT Lancet diet or "Global Diet"/WWF burning indigenous villages down and removing people from their lands to "conserve" wildlife etc). I have also recently interviewed a public health doctor from India who is advocating for the rights of dalits and adivasi Indians to have access to animal foods because of Modi's fascist regime which is literally killing and imprisoning people for eating animal foods. Anyway, I clearly have a different perspective. So I asked if he was aware of these things, maybe with a little bit too much spice, but nothing outright rude, and certainly nothing personal.
So this dude happens to be living in India (which I didn't know or assume just based on looking at him), and his first response is to tell me that I, a white person, am "wokesplaining" colonization to the colonized. He didn't engage with my ideas at all, but essentially just discounted me based purely on his own identity politics, saying that as a vegan from Northern India, he won't listen to a westerners perspective (ironic coming from someone who literally has "anti-identity politics" in his bio) when in reality I a) figured he'd be open to dissent given the caption about discussion, and b) am trying to uplift the voices of the people I work with who are directly affected by these colonial policies and are activists who are often silenced for their views. Another comment followed with someone else immediately calling out how I'm a white person and how my "folks" colonized India for 2 generations– no mention of the actual human beings I'm trying to advocate for, just an attack on my credibility due to something utterly out of my control like my skin color. I replied asking them to engage with my ideas rather than just immediately dismissing me on the basis of my race (and I also called out the hypocrisy of the page being anti-idpol but then immediately devolving to idpol attacks the moment someone disagrees). As far as I have seen, they haven't replied.
I suppose my real question here is, is it not more racist for me to NOT challenge the opinions of people I disagree with because of the color of their skin? Wouldn't that be horribly patronizing of me? Is it not racist for them to immediately pull MY race into the conversation, when I would never in a million years discount another human beings perspective on the basis of their race, let alone make racialized assumptions about them & their lives? I'm just so confused. How is this social justice?
I did apologize for perhaps being more confrontational than necessary, but I certainly said nothing egregious. I'm just a passionate person! I wasn't trying to attack, but rather be like "hey, this type of harm DOES exist in the vegan movement." This just confuses me so much, like we all have blindspots about how the world is working around us, and that's okay. The best thing we can do is try to expand the aperture on our worldview to make more sense of it. But in this context, because I'm white, I can't talk about the colonialism that I know is happening in the world if it challenges the beliefs of a person of color? As if I made the conscious decision to be born white and be raised in a colony? How do we make a better world if white people aren't even allowed to advocate for the marginalized?
Again, I don't expect a response to this. I suppose I just wanted to put my thoughts somewhere where people might be willing to help me see this with more clarity. I'm open to admitting my faults. I just don't see how it's helpful at all for a dialogue to devolve to race like that and then no REAL ideas are ever discussed. Racism and colonialism truly disgust me more than anything and yet the number of times I have been called racist & colonialist based on nothing else but the color of my skin the past year is really sad. Why am I the enemy for actually caring– for actually trying to make the world a better place with my work? Will I remain the enemy until I denounce myself as a white supremacist and self-flagellate all over social media, or will it never end? How do we get through this?
Hi Maren! I know absolutely nothing about the intersection between veganism and indigenous people, so there’s not much I can say about that, but I do know a little about arguing on the internet😄
I think this is the problem:
“maybe with a little bit too much spice, but nothing outright rude, and certainly nothing personal.”
I have a standing policy of being as diplomatic as possible in my first comment to somebody I disagree with. Most people don’t like being told their wrong, or even that they’ve missed something. And if you couple that with a little “spice”, you’re probably in for a hard time. And if you’ve got their back up enough, apologising after the fact often won’t make any difference. As they say, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.
After that, the identity politics stuff is just an excuse. Especially if you have a good point, it’s easier to just discredit you for something unrelated. If it were me, they’d say you’re not Indian. Or you’re not a vegan. Or you have no experience. Or whatever.
Lots of people who claim to be anti identity politics will leap to it if it helps them win an argument. It’s a reflection of their inability to argue the facts. So try not to take it too personally. And watch the spice😁
Hey Steve. I know you get probably a million comments a day and I don't expect a response to this. I came to your substack after an unpleasant Instagram interaction today seeking clarity in your writing. In your original piece that spurred this one, you said "instead of condemning those who judge us by the color of our skin, we gleefully judge other people by the color of theirs." This is my primary confusion with so much of what is happening in racial dialogues right now. The interaction I had on Instagram is just churning around in my head so much, and it's sort of making me feel crazy.
So today on Instagram, I saw a post by a guy who has "anti-identity politics" in his bio. He had posted something, which I disagree with, with the caption that said "Let's discuss!" So... I posted my take on what he said. Essentially he was arguing that when non-vegans say that a vegan agenda is harmful to indigenous peoples, they are just using indigenous people to maintain their immoral pleasure of eating meat. In my line of work, I am in near constant contact with people (indigenous, peasant farmers, activists, all kinds of people) who are demanding for NGOs in conservation and corporations in agriculture to decolonize their agendas, many of whom have intersections in the vegan movement/animal rights groups (i.e. Bill Gates & AGRA or the vegan Norwegian billionaire who created the plant-based EAT Lancet diet or "Global Diet"/WWF burning indigenous villages down and removing people from their lands to "conserve" wildlife etc). I have also recently interviewed a public health doctor from India who is advocating for the rights of dalits and adivasi Indians to have access to animal foods because of Modi's fascist regime which is literally killing and imprisoning people for eating animal foods. Anyway, I clearly have a different perspective. So I asked if he was aware of these things, maybe with a little bit too much spice, but nothing outright rude, and certainly nothing personal.
So this dude happens to be living in India (which I didn't know or assume just based on looking at him), and his first response is to tell me that I, a white person, am "wokesplaining" colonization to the colonized. He didn't engage with my ideas at all, but essentially just discounted me based purely on his own identity politics, saying that as a vegan from Northern India, he won't listen to a westerners perspective (ironic coming from someone who literally has "anti-identity politics" in his bio) when in reality I a) figured he'd be open to dissent given the caption about discussion, and b) am trying to uplift the voices of the people I work with who are directly affected by these colonial policies and are activists who are often silenced for their views. Another comment followed with someone else immediately calling out how I'm a white person and how my "folks" colonized India for 2 generations– no mention of the actual human beings I'm trying to advocate for, just an attack on my credibility due to something utterly out of my control like my skin color. I replied asking them to engage with my ideas rather than just immediately dismissing me on the basis of my race (and I also called out the hypocrisy of the page being anti-idpol but then immediately devolving to idpol attacks the moment someone disagrees). As far as I have seen, they haven't replied.
I suppose my real question here is, is it not more racist for me to NOT challenge the opinions of people I disagree with because of the color of their skin? Wouldn't that be horribly patronizing of me? Is it not racist for them to immediately pull MY race into the conversation, when I would never in a million years discount another human beings perspective on the basis of their race, let alone make racialized assumptions about them & their lives? I'm just so confused. How is this social justice?
I did apologize for perhaps being more confrontational than necessary, but I certainly said nothing egregious. I'm just a passionate person! I wasn't trying to attack, but rather be like "hey, this type of harm DOES exist in the vegan movement." This just confuses me so much, like we all have blindspots about how the world is working around us, and that's okay. The best thing we can do is try to expand the aperture on our worldview to make more sense of it. But in this context, because I'm white, I can't talk about the colonialism that I know is happening in the world if it challenges the beliefs of a person of color? As if I made the conscious decision to be born white and be raised in a colony? How do we make a better world if white people aren't even allowed to advocate for the marginalized?
Again, I don't expect a response to this. I suppose I just wanted to put my thoughts somewhere where people might be willing to help me see this with more clarity. I'm open to admitting my faults. I just don't see how it's helpful at all for a dialogue to devolve to race like that and then no REAL ideas are ever discussed. Racism and colonialism truly disgust me more than anything and yet the number of times I have been called racist & colonialist based on nothing else but the color of my skin the past year is really sad. Why am I the enemy for actually caring– for actually trying to make the world a better place with my work? Will I remain the enemy until I denounce myself as a white supremacist and self-flagellate all over social media, or will it never end? How do we get through this?
Hi Maren! I know absolutely nothing about the intersection between veganism and indigenous people, so there’s not much I can say about that, but I do know a little about arguing on the internet😄
I think this is the problem:
“maybe with a little bit too much spice, but nothing outright rude, and certainly nothing personal.”
I have a standing policy of being as diplomatic as possible in my first comment to somebody I disagree with. Most people don’t like being told their wrong, or even that they’ve missed something. And if you couple that with a little “spice”, you’re probably in for a hard time. And if you’ve got their back up enough, apologising after the fact often won’t make any difference. As they say, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.
After that, the identity politics stuff is just an excuse. Especially if you have a good point, it’s easier to just discredit you for something unrelated. If it were me, they’d say you’re not Indian. Or you’re not a vegan. Or you have no experience. Or whatever.
Lots of people who claim to be anti identity politics will leap to it if it helps them win an argument. It’s a reflection of their inability to argue the facts. So try not to take it too personally. And watch the spice😁