You'd React To Me As If I Was A Male Person, And That Means Violence

OG readers of The Commentary will remember Ray. Ray and I went back and forth on racial issues numerous times (Ray was a big fan of the “all white people are racist” rhetoric). So you can imagine how indignant I was when the most eloquent refutation of his ideas didn’t even include me. 

Ray got into an argument about feminism with a writer named Casira (Ray took a “feminists don’t want equality, they want to oppress men” stance), and Casira had the presence of mind to ask how he’d respond if a white person claimed that “anti-racists” don’t want equality, they want to oppress white people. 

The hypocrisy was so glaring that even Ray couldn’t miss it. He just needed to see things from the other side.

In my article, Trans Activism’s Self-Inflicted Backlash, I wrote, amongst other things, about how one-sided discussions about trans inclusion are. I lamented that this issue would be infinitely less toxic and polarised if trans activists and their “allies” showed even 1/1000th the compassion for women that they show for trans women.

Elizabeth tried to compare trans issues to racism and male violence, but in each case, she exposed the flaws in her own “logic.”

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Elizabeth:

I'm from the UK where there is a similar backlash and transgender people like myself look similarly unhinged in the media. In reality, we're just never allowed to actually say what we believe and it's just frustrating.

We really don't have the level of power you imply we do and we don't get heard to the level that you think we do. If we did, answering "What is a woman?" would be easy...

Instead, when that question gets asked we know what's coming, and that there's no point even trying...

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Steve QJ:

“In reality, we're just never allowed to actually say what we believe and it's just frustrating.”

I mean, this is largely my point. I don't see much evidence that trans people aren't "allowed" to say what they believe. I don't see trans people getting shut down in conversation unless it's by other trans people if they say something that demonstrates that they're "truscum" or whatever.

And in my experience the trans people who I've spoken to offline are a million miles away from the insane rhetoric being spouted by the people in the film or on Twitter.

But these aren't random idiots. They're leading doctors and professors in the field of gender reassignment and gender studies. Of the trans people I see writing about trans issues on Medium, for example, TaraElla is literally the only one who I'd say is consistently honest and trying to broaden understanding instead of ranting and fear-mongering.

As for power, I think you underestimate the pressures placed on people trying to have honest, good-faith conversations about these topics. Just because it pops into my head, I recently read this post on Matt Taibi's substack.

Matt is a hugely successful author and journalist He has a huge platform, lots of "power", yet he talks about how he sat on an interview for months just because he was terrified of the backlash. As a writer, I know how he feels. I read and re-read each word, desperately trying to find a way not to be misinterpreted, and yet, sure enough, I get accused of being a bigot and a transphobe and blah, blah, blah.

The abuse aimed at reasonable people who are pro-trans if they say one word out of line is unbelievable. You might not see that from your side of the fence. But believe me, it's there.

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Elizabeth:

That's an interesting and thoughtful response, so let's try and carry that on in the same vein.

You don't see much evidence and I must confess i don't know the US situation well enough to have a clear idea of what you see.

However, here in the UK, there's quite a lot of it around. When it comes to media appearances about transgender people, transgender people are almost never invited to speak. Instead, we'll have someone else defend us.

Equally, the topic that that person will probably be defending us from will likely be some point I may or may not agree with or care about, but am told with absolute certainty that I, as a transgender person, want. Sometimes, I'm pretty sure the topic isn't even cared about by the widespread community (I'm involved in several community groups so I have an ear to the ground). Sometimes, it's just a blantant lie.

When transgender people are included in conversations about themselves, the discussion is usually steered and we're not really given a choice to defend ourselves well. Plus, people will take the fruitiest transgender people and use those to attack all transgender people. Thus we get lots of abuse aimed at bisexuals and non-binary people since those are the ones people like to platform.

As for honest, good-faith discussion, I've learnt people are just not capable of it. For example, the Intrinsic Inclinations Model, one of the leading trans models I like, predicts that people have internal programming around gender, orientation and other things, and will act on them and it will render them biased. You can even express religion using that model, and when you consider how people reach for the murder baton whenever that topic comes up in history, I love how transgender people need to be the restrained ones, but others don't.

We regularly say that arguments that disrespect our intrinsic inclination (that programming in our heads that makes us who we are) is why we get quite annoyed. Many people are happy to say it doesn't exist. This is how shows like the one you've reviewed work, and how many "rational debates" end up irrational.

I find it difficult to explain that topic, so let's make it personal to you. I notice you have black skin colour. Let's have a reasoned and rational debate on whether you are the same species as white people? What could possibly go wrong?

Everything, I'd say. Everything in its horrendousness. While it may be a rational scientific argument to ask if you are equally as human as me, any answer other than yes has terrible and terrifying consequences for you. The kind of terrifying consequences you cannot just put down or leave or walk away from. I'm educated, so I can make the argument from both sides, but being trans has taught me just how terrifying having the freedom to have the debate can be, because it means the answer isn't always going to be safe for you, whereas I will always be OK.

This is how it feels to debate the transgender position as a transgender person. Is being what I am coming from real things inside my head over which I have no control? Or is it just behavioural? The later means I can be changed by a sufficient application of violence and persuation. I tried to do that to myself. I failed. Others tried too and they failed too. But that doesn't mean others don't want to keep trying, on the basis that it might work one day, and that the experiment hasn't been "properly" done, whatever that means.

So, when is it enough to stop the conversation? When is it enough to say that this thing is no longer an item for debate? Who decides?

This is, I think, why people tend to try to shut the debate down. Not just transgender people, but others, for us, on our behalf. I think that's why people such as the person you link to suffer these backlashes.

And not every transgender backlash is about being transgender. At least part of the backlash done on behalf of trans people in the UK are LGB people getting revenge for Section 28. They couldn't save themselves as children but they can stop it happening to us and they are certainly doing that. We're a proxy for many other kinds of issues that people care passionately about and I think we always will be.

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Steve QJ:

“Equally, the topic that that person will probably be defending us from will likely be some point I may or may not agree with or care about, but am told with absolute certainty that I, as a transgender person, want.”

Yep, again, this is the point I'm making. I see exactly the same problem with "anti-racist" activism. As I said in the article, I think this is a vocal minority who generally don't speak for trans people at large. But they affect perceptions of the trans community. And the extremes of their demands, coupled with the way they attack anybody who disagrees, is really damaging perceptions.

I mean, you say you'd like to carry on in this thoughtful vein, which is all I want to do, but take a look at some of the responses here. You think trans people are the ones who restraining themselves? Really? You think I'd get away with some of the comments being made here if I was making them towards a trans person instead of the other way around? Again, we obviously have different experiences of this debate, but nothing I see suggests any restraint is happening.

Here's the thing. I'm happy to have a debate about whether black people are the same species as white people. Go ahead. I'm not terrified at all. In fact, even the idea that you think it's terrifying is interesting. I don't judge my humanity relative to white people. I don't see them as superior to me or the benchmark of humanity. Therefore, I don't really care how I compare to them. I'm not trying to be seen as "as good as" or "the same as" white people. "Equal to all other human beings" is fine by me. And I am. My being black isn't an identity, it's just a fact. I have zero insecurities about it.

I'm not mad, but I have to say, there's this fascinating vein of unconscious (and occasionally very conscious) racism I keep finding within the trans community. Notably, never when I speak to black trans people.

But here's why trans issues are nothing like black issues.

I am a male. I am just as subject to sex-segregation as any male. But I'm not chaining myself to lunch counters over it, I welcome it. Because even though I pose no threat to women, I know that males overwhelmingly do. And this is also true for trans women (https://fairplayforwomen.com/criminality/). I'm not oppressed because I'm not allowed into female prisons, I'm not oppressed because I'm not allowed to compete in female sports. This is simply a recognition of my biological reality and it keeps women safer.

I recognise the need to protect trans people too. Trans men and women. I just don't think women should be expected to give up their hard-won spaces to do so.

Again, please feel free to make the same arguments about black people and white people. I'm all ears.

It's fascinating to me that this article has been seen by some as an attack on trans people. It's nothing of the sort. It's a warning. And not in a Goodfella's kind of way. I'm sure you've heard about what's happening with Macy Gray and Bette Midler. This is a symptom of people waking up to some of the things happening in trans activism. It's a symptom of seeing how vicious the trans community can be when confronted with, in some cases, simple facts. It's a symptom of the public seeing how brutally they attack women, in particular, when they speak up for themselves.

The people doing that are your enemy. Not me.

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Elizabeth:

“‘Equal to all other human beings’ is fine by me. And I am. My being black isn't an identity, it's just a fact. I have zero insecurities about it.”

This one statement is very much the crux of the whole thing. We maintain that we just are, and it's a fact. Yet the way you've differentiated between being black, and having an identity implies you don't feel the same way. And that leads me to start thinking that you don't believe that what makes transgender people trans is innate and unchangeable.

Indeed, you've avoided all the points I raised about how being transgender is not something that can be turned on or off. And therefore if you wonder whether you should be receiving that level of abuse that you claim, ask yourself whether you would be so restrained if someone blatantly claimed racism was not a thing and it doesn't affect you at all?

Since I don't trust anyone to answer that question accurately in the heat of a debate, by raising race issues in this thread, I ran a little natural experiment. It's interesting to see how much you wrote in response to a point that affects you in an existential way. Since you focused on it quite a bit, I have a good idea of your response level and can say with good certainty that you would not take it lying down. You care (and so you should).

So, imagine having someone casually dismiss your existence, as you have done to me and all transgender people, and then try to indicate that it's really all our fault, and I think you'll see that reactions will happen, ranging from the well argued (mine) to the more visceral.

Your bias comes across in what you write, and just as you pointed out that I do have unconscious racial bias (thanks for that, you're right I do), you have ignored your unconscious bias against transgender people, which you're trying to pass off in a reasoned way.

Your unconscious bias affects me. If we were not arguing over the internet, but in person, and you really believed that I was male and forcing my gender ideology on you, you'd react to me as if I was a male person, and that means violence if things go wrong, which I would not get if I was seen as female by you.

I know that, and I'd make sure I wouldn't be anywhere you were to stay safe. In this way, another bit of my equality goes, so you can have an opinion.

On another note, I don't think you fully understood the point I made about having to defend ourselves for things we do not think or believe. It's not just other anti-trans activists getting heated on our behalf, but more the same as not being able to have a debate with you until you prove to me that you don't support the Great Replacement of white people by black people. It's an evil, debunked theory. You've given me no reason to believe you even support it. But when it comes to being transgender, we're arguing against stuff like that all of the time. We need to prove we're not dangers to children first, that we're not trying to rape women, that we're not trying to destroy feminism and all of that gets very tiring when you're not trying to do any of it. How do you prove a negative?

And when we have the debate about our existence, people tend to be along the lines of "well, thank you for admiting that there is something to debate, I know, I'll be generous to you and give you these conscesions, aren't you happy?". It would be like, having admitted you're open to a racial debate, we'd go through the motions and at the end I'd go "oh, yeah, you're pretty clever, I guess that convinces me you deserve humanity, but there's still a debate, so how about you're only 80% as equal as me and see how we go mate". Would you be happy? I don't think so.

Thanks for the debate. I'm bowing out here. Lovely to talk to you.

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Steve QJ:

“Indeed, you've avoided all the points I raised about how being transgender is not something that can be turned on or off.”

Hi. Somehow I missed the notification for this. I know you said you were bowing out, but I just want to address this so there's no misunderstanding. And given that I'm not expecting a response, I hope you won't mind if this runs a little long.

Let's start with this; I absolutely believe that being trans (or let me say gender dysphoria for reasons that will become obvious in a minute) is something that can't be turned on and off. I don't think it's a choice. Any more than being gay or being female or being black. It is, indeed, a fact. But there are a few points I'd make alongside that.

First, gender dysphoria is widely known to resolve itself in the majority of people once they've gone through puberty. This isn't to say they didn't really have gender dysphoria or they weren't "really trans." But to say that gender dysphoria isn't always (or even usually) permanent. Especially if it isn't medicalised. Being black doesn't ever "resolve" itself after puberty. That doesn't make being trans a choice, but it makes it different to being black.

Second, some number of people who claim they're trans today clearly don't have gender dysphoria. In fact, some people in the trans community today take offence at the idea that gender dysphoria is even necessary to be trans. Literally the only thing that makes somebody trans. For those people, being trans is, I believe, just a cool, edgy identity to put on (and which they'll almost certainly take off again when they're older). Again, this is completely different to being black.

Third, the question isn't even whether or not somebody being trans is a fact. If somebody tells me they're trans, why would I argue or disbelieve them? The question is whether or not being a trans woman, say, makes you identical to a woman in law and in life. I highlighted "identical" because in the vast majority of cases this question doesn't matter.

But my position is that there are a few instances where it does matter. Especially when people try to argue that any male who says "I'm a woman" is legally a woman. I don't believe it's transphobic or hateful or bigoted to acknowledge these instances. Indeed, claiming they don't exist seems to be denying the reality of transition itself.

And lastly, you've made numerous false equivalences here. Because, as you showed with your “little natural experiment” you don't understand racism at all. This ridiculous language of "dismissing your existence" is a perfect example of the problem. 

Even if you said racism didn't exist, you wouldn't be "dismissing my existence." You'd be making a claim that I could disprove with evidence. I've had that debate many times. But trans women are male. I'm genuinely sorry you find this offensive, but it's a fact. It's not bias. It's not like claiming black people aren't human or that racism doesn’t exist, it's literally the only prerequisite for being a trans woman. Otherwise, you wouldn't need to transition. Male, I remind you, is a biological term used to describe every animal species, not a gender based one. If reality itself becomes transphobic, there's no hope of us ever understanding each other. 

The closest analogy here is claiming that black people aren’t white. No! We’re not! And no black person in their right mind ever claimed to be. 

I wouldn't call a trans woman a "man." Because it's also a prerequisite of being a trans women that you reject that label. No problem. But it's insane to argue that because I'm aware that trans women are male, I'd attack you if "things go wrong." Is this really how you see human interaction? You're assuming that because I'm a man, you're in physical danger if we have a discussion and end up disagreeing?

Well, funnily enough, you're making exactly the same argument that "TERF"s make. Only they have far better reason to make it. You're afraid that I might attack you if we disagree, even though I'm betting you can't find many examples of that happening in real life. Fine. Women are afraid males might attack them because they're female, and that happens thousands of times every single day. ~99% of sexual assault is carried out by males.

You feel as if you're in danger around men, even one you have no reason to believe is violent and who has spoken to you respectfully throughout? Okay, fair enough. Women feel as if they're in danger around males. Women feel as if they're in danger around males. And many of them have direct experience of a male behaving aggressively or violently when a conversation didn’t go as they hoped (this most definitely includes trans women if you look online). It's wild to me that you can see one problem but not the other.

I'm not debating your humanity. I never have. There's no question in my mind that you deserve the same human rights as everybody else. The problem is, no male has the right to access female spaces. That includes me. I am not oppressed because of this. This isn't a basic human right, it's a new right, that other males don't have, that you're demanding based on a feeling that can't be verified. You're trying to argue that anybody who wants a better way to differentiate between people like you and people like me and people like Karen White, is a bigot who is "dismissing your existence."

If you want this to fly with "no debate" you're going to turn the vast majority of people against you. Because it reveals that you value your affirmation over women's rights and safety.

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By definition, we all know how an issue affects us. We see the pros and the cons, the risks and rewards, the dangers and opportunities, we know how the issue makes us feel. But far less obvious, and not at all obvious unless we make a little effort, is how the same issue affects other people.

Trans women have good reason to be fearful of violence or mistreatment in male spaces. I don’t think any reasonable person denies that this is a problem. The question is, is it women’s problem?

And if women do open up their spaces to make trans women feel safe, what compromises are trans women willing to make to ensure that women feel safe? Do trans rights come with trans responsibilities? Is anything allowed to stand in the way of immediate and unconditional validation? Or is the flow of compassion only allowed to move in one direction?

Because if that’s the case, that compassion will inevitably, and I think tragically, flow away from trans women. The hypocrisy is so glaring it’s impossible to miss it forever.