Bear with me if you will. I hope to tie this to Stephanie's mindset (but I can't read minds).
Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood. From this (https://tinyurl.com/ybjwfctv) source:
The six biological karyotype sexes that โฆ
Bear with me if you will. I hope to tie this to Stephanie's mindset (but I can't read minds).
Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood. From this (https://tinyurl.com/ybjwfctv) source:
The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:
X โ Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turnerโs )
๐ซ๐ซ โ Most common form of female
XXY โ Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
๐ซ๐ฌ โ Most common form of male
XYY โ Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY โ Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
In all of your discussions with transgender people, have any mentioned that they have one of the uncommon non XX or XY biological karyotype sexes? Gender dysphoria would probably be more comprehensible to the lay person in those cases even though the article states the gender is something else.
I've mentioned the following more tersely, but I use the quote:
The tie in (again, I cannot read minds) is that the unbending militancy of people like Stephanie is that they are genuinely frustrated by people (heterosexual men and lesbian women in particular I would think) who respond to โ๐ ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐ค๐ข๐ฏ ๐ฃ๐ฆ ๐ข ๐ธ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ข๐ฏ ๐ธ๐ช๐ต๐ฉ ๐ข ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ช๐ดโ with "๐๐ฉ, ๐ฏ๐ฐ, ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ช๐ด ๐ช๐ด ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ข ๐ค๐ญ๐ช๐ต๐ฐ๐ณ๐ช๐ด." ๐ง๐ต๐ฒ๐ ๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฑ๐ป'๐ ๐๐ฎ๐ ๐๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ถ๐ ๐ถ๐, ๐ฏ๐๐ ๐บ๐ผ๐๐ ๐ฝ๐ฒ๐ผ๐ฝ๐น๐ฒ ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ป'๐ ๐ด๐ฒ๐ ๐ฝ๐ฎ๐๐ ๐๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ฝ๐ต๐๐๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐น "๐๐ต๐ถ๐ป๐ด." It is unfortunate that biological sex and gender use the same words (male and female) because this is what we get.
Frustration does not alter the fact that if you start a conversation/debate with an insult as you figuratively spit in their eye, there is not much hope of anything productive following. That goes to the heart of your point that hostile militancy does not help their cause, even when you can empathize with their frustration. When they go further and try to harm you (job, income, reputation) they should expect hostility in return.
A lot of words to agree with you. I do wonder about the relationship between the uncommon biological karyotypes and gender dysphoria though. How often is it a factor, if it is? Does it matter.
Hey Dave! Your question sent me tumbling down a rabbit hole of intersex research yesterday! And I thought you might be interested in this one as it speaks to the complexity of these issues.
I just learned about a condition called Swyer syndrome (https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/). It's extremely rare, affecting something like 1 in 20,000-80,000 births, where a male with XY chromosomes doesn't go through the normal sex differentiation in the womb (we all start out female), and so develops an ambiguous penis or sometimes no penis at all.
They don't go through puberty naturally and require hormones to develop secondary sex characteristics, and are almost always infertile, although there is at least one recorded case of a person with this condition getting pregnant. So I stand corrected, there's at least one case of somebody who was technically male getting pregnant! ๐
Still nothing to do with trans people or new sexes, but fascinating.
In a gay bar one evening I saw a young man with a much older one and the younger was almost certainly a case of androgen insensitivity syndrome. He had the subcutaneous facial fat of a barely overweight woman and everything about his posture and expressions and even to the angle at which he held a cigarette was not just effeminate, but feminine.
And in Norfolk I knew one person with something like both kinds of genitalia; I didn't turn on the light for a better look but he told me he was a "he-she" and that he sometimes worked as a prostitute and that the marks didn't care.
"Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood."
No, this isn't quite true. Karyotypic variations aren't new sexes, though they're often incorrectly framed that way, they're just chromosomal differences, like Down's syndrome for example. A new biological sex would be a human who produced a new type of gamete or had a role in sexual reproduction other than providing the sperm or the egg. No such human exists.
A single X chromosome produces females (with Turner syndrome as you say). XXY, XYY and XXXY chromosomes all produce males with various symptoms or sometimes no symptoms at all. These people are infertile in many cases, but again, that doesn't make then a new sex.
But beyond that, the key point to bear in mind is that intersex conditions have nothing to do with trans identities.
As far as I know, there's only one person on Medium who is both intersex and identifies as trans. And, ironically enough, he's the first person to criticise trans people who conflate being trans with intersex conditions. Even if there were multiple sexes, it still wouldn't mean that a male becomes a female by "feeling" like one.
The overwhelming majority of trans people are just garden-variety males and females, which is obvious just from the incredible rarity of intersex conditions. Extreeeemly occasionally, the external genitalia of males and females is ambiguous enough that it's not immediately obvious which they are just by looking (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/). But my fun fact of the day is that this happens almost exactly as rarely as flipping a coin and having it land in its edge (https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1993PhRvE..48.2547M/abstract).
I can't remember where I saw it. Mebbe on this very forum. An Intersex person said they didn't want to have anything to do with the TIAQN+ variety of the LGB group. Sample size of one, so there is that. But I'd be surprised if it wasn't the majority. Many have said that they have a unique, very *difficult* path. Luckily, for the majority, they're a fraction of a fraction of a percentage. I feel for them, best I can.. But I haven't managed to be able to imagine the difficulties.
TY, Dave, for the research. I didn't know all the variations and dunno very much about how all the different [Edit: "genotypes" -> "karotypes"] present themselves. And funny how just about *any* "conversation" online can devolve down to insults pretty quickly, amongst certain people.
Bear with me if you will. I hope to tie this to Stephanie's mindset (but I can't read minds).
Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood. From this (https://tinyurl.com/ybjwfctv) source:
The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:
X โ Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turnerโs )
๐ซ๐ซ โ Most common form of female
XXY โ Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
๐ซ๐ฌ โ Most common form of male
XYY โ Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY โ Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
"๐๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ฏ ๐บ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐ค๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ด๐ช๐ฅ๐ฆ๐ณ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ 7,000,000,000 ๐ข๐ญ๐ช๐ท๐ฆ ๐ฐ๐ฏ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ ๐ฑ๐ญ๐ข๐ฏ๐ฆ๐ต, ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ข๐ญ๐ฎ๐ฐ๐ด๐ต ๐ข๐ด๐ด๐ถ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ฅ๐ญ๐บ ๐ต๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ด ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ฎ๐ช๐ญ๐ญ๐ช๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ด ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฐ๐ฑ๐ญ๐ฆ ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ฐ ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ฎ๐ข๐ญ๐ฆ ๐ฐ๐ณ ๐ง๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ข๐ญ๐ฆ. ๐๐ข๐ฏ๐บ ๐ต๐ช๐ฎ๐ฆ๐ด, ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ด๐ฆ ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฐ๐ฑ๐ญ๐ฆ ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ถ๐ฏ๐ข๐ธ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ช๐ณ ๐ต๐ณ๐ถ๐ฆ ๐ด๐ฆ๐น. ๐๐ตโ๐ด ๐ช๐ฏ๐ต๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ด๐ต๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ฆ๐ท๐ฆ๐ณ๐บ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ฆ ๐ข๐ด๐ด๐ถ๐ฎ๐ฆ๐ด ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ, ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ด๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ข๐ญ๐ญ๐บ, ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐๐ ๐ฐ๐ณ ๐๐."
In all of your discussions with transgender people, have any mentioned that they have one of the uncommon non XX or XY biological karyotype sexes? Gender dysphoria would probably be more comprehensible to the lay person in those cases even though the article states the gender is something else.
I've mentioned the following more tersely, but I use the quote:
"๐๐ฉ๐ช๐ด ๐ช๐ด ๐ธ๐ฉ๐บ ๐ด๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ฆ ๐ง๐ณ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ๐ฆ ๐ข๐ค๐ต๐ช๐ท๐ช๐ด๐ต๐ด ๐ค๐ข๐ฏ ๐ด๐ฆ๐ณ๐ช๐ฐ๐ถ๐ด๐ญ๐บ ๐ด๐ข๐บ, โ๐ ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐ค๐ข๐ฏ ๐ฃ๐ฆ ๐ข ๐ธ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ข๐ฏ ๐ธ๐ช๐ต๐ฉ ๐ข ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ช๐ดโ, ๐ธ๐ฉ๐ช๐ญ๐ฆ ๐ฎ๐ฐ๐ด๐ต ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ ๐ธ๐ฐ๐ณ๐ญ๐ฅ ๐ธ๐ช๐ญ๐ญ ๐ญ๐ฐ๐ฐ๐ฌ ๐ข๐ต ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ฎ ๐ญ๐ช๐ฌ๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ฉ๐ข๐ท๐ฆ ๐ญ๐ฐ๐ด๐ต ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ช๐ณ ๐ฎ๐ช๐ฏ๐ฅ. ๐๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ช๐ฏ๐ฉ๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ต๐ญ๐บ ๐ถ๐ด๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฎ โ๐ธ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ข๐ฏโ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ง๐ฆ๐ณ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐จ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ฅ๐ฆ๐ณ ๐ข๐ฏ๐ฅ ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ฃ๐ช๐ฐ๐ญ๐ฐ๐จ๐ช๐ค๐ข๐ญ ๐ด๐ฆ๐น. ๐๐ฉ๐ช๐ด ๐ฅ๐ช๐ง๐ง๐ฆ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ค๐ฆ ๐ช๐ฏ ๐ท๐ฐ๐ค๐ข๐ฃ๐ถ๐ญ๐ข๐ณ๐บ ๐ช๐ด ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ด๐ฑ๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ด๐ช๐ฃ๐ญ๐ฆ ๐ง๐ฐ๐ณ ๐ท๐ช๐ณ๐ต๐ถ๐ข๐ญ๐ญ๐บ ๐ข๐ญ๐ญ ๐ค๐ฐ๐ฏ๐ง๐ญ๐ช๐ค๐ต๐ด ๐ฃ๐ฆ๐ต๐ธ๐ฆ๐ฆ๐ฏ ๐จ๐ณ๐ฐ๐ถ๐ฑ๐ด ๐ฐ๐ฏ ๐ช๐ด๐ด๐ถ๐ฆ๐ด ๐ช๐ฏ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ช๐ด ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ข. ๐๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ฅ๐ฐ ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ข๐ญ๐ช๐ป๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ฆ๐บ ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ถ๐ด๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐ข ๐ฑ๐ฉ๐ณ๐ข๐ด๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ณ๐ฆ๐ง๐ฆ๐ณ ๐ต๐ฐ ๐ต๐ธ๐ฐ ๐ด๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ข๐ณ๐ข๐ต๐ฆ ๐ต๐ฉ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ๐ด ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ข๐ณ๐ฆ ๐ฐ๐ง๐ต๐ฆ๐ฏ, ๐ฃ๐ถ๐ต ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ข๐ญ๐ธ๐ข๐บ๐ด, ๐ค๐ฐ๐ฏ๐จ๐ณ๐ถ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ต."
The tie in (again, I cannot read minds) is that the unbending militancy of people like Stephanie is that they are genuinely frustrated by people (heterosexual men and lesbian women in particular I would think) who respond to โ๐ ๐ฐ๐ถ ๐ค๐ข๐ฏ ๐ฃ๐ฆ ๐ข ๐ธ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ข๐ฏ ๐ธ๐ช๐ต๐ฉ ๐ข ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ช๐ดโ with "๐๐ฉ, ๐ฏ๐ฐ, ๐ต๐ฉ๐ข๐ต ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ฏ๐ช๐ด ๐ช๐ด ๐ฏ๐ฐ๐ต ๐ข ๐ค๐ญ๐ช๐ต๐ฐ๐ณ๐ช๐ด." ๐ง๐ต๐ฒ๐ ๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฑ๐ป'๐ ๐๐ฎ๐ ๐๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ถ๐ ๐ถ๐, ๐ฏ๐๐ ๐บ๐ผ๐๐ ๐ฝ๐ฒ๐ผ๐ฝ๐น๐ฒ ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ป'๐ ๐ด๐ฒ๐ ๐ฝ๐ฎ๐๐ ๐๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ฝ๐ต๐๐๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐น "๐๐ต๐ถ๐ป๐ด." It is unfortunate that biological sex and gender use the same words (male and female) because this is what we get.
Frustration does not alter the fact that if you start a conversation/debate with an insult as you figuratively spit in their eye, there is not much hope of anything productive following. That goes to the heart of your point that hostile militancy does not help their cause, even when you can empathize with their frustration. When they go further and try to harm you (job, income, reputation) they should expect hostility in return.
A lot of words to agree with you. I do wonder about the relationship between the uncommon biological karyotypes and gender dysphoria though. How often is it a factor, if it is? Does it matter.
Hey Dave! Your question sent me tumbling down a rabbit hole of intersex research yesterday! And I thought you might be interested in this one as it speaks to the complexity of these issues.
I just learned about a condition called Swyer syndrome (https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/). It's extremely rare, affecting something like 1 in 20,000-80,000 births, where a male with XY chromosomes doesn't go through the normal sex differentiation in the womb (we all start out female), and so develops an ambiguous penis or sometimes no penis at all.
They don't go through puberty naturally and require hormones to develop secondary sex characteristics, and are almost always infertile, although there is at least one recorded case of a person with this condition getting pregnant. So I stand corrected, there's at least one case of somebody who was technically male getting pregnant! ๐
Still nothing to do with trans people or new sexes, but fascinating.
In a gay bar one evening I saw a young man with a much older one and the younger was almost certainly a case of androgen insensitivity syndrome. He had the subcutaneous facial fat of a barely overweight woman and everything about his posture and expressions and even to the angle at which he held a cigarette was not just effeminate, but feminine.
And in Norfolk I knew one person with something like both kinds of genitalia; I didn't turn on the light for a better look but he told me he was a "he-she" and that he sometimes worked as a prostitute and that the marks didn't care.
"Trying to learn more about the issue I discovered (I didn't know this) that there are more than two biological sexes with implications not fully understood."
No, this isn't quite true. Karyotypic variations aren't new sexes, though they're often incorrectly framed that way, they're just chromosomal differences, like Down's syndrome for example. A new biological sex would be a human who produced a new type of gamete or had a role in sexual reproduction other than providing the sperm or the egg. No such human exists.
A single X chromosome produces females (with Turner syndrome as you say). XXY, XYY and XXXY chromosomes all produce males with various symptoms or sometimes no symptoms at all. These people are infertile in many cases, but again, that doesn't make then a new sex.
But beyond that, the key point to bear in mind is that intersex conditions have nothing to do with trans identities.
As far as I know, there's only one person on Medium who is both intersex and identifies as trans. And, ironically enough, he's the first person to criticise trans people who conflate being trans with intersex conditions. Even if there were multiple sexes, it still wouldn't mean that a male becomes a female by "feeling" like one.
The overwhelming majority of trans people are just garden-variety males and females, which is obvious just from the incredible rarity of intersex conditions. Extreeeemly occasionally, the external genitalia of males and females is ambiguous enough that it's not immediately obvious which they are just by looking (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/). But my fun fact of the day is that this happens almost exactly as rarely as flipping a coin and having it land in its edge (https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1993PhRvE..48.2547M/abstract).
Thanks for the clarification.
I can't remember where I saw it. Mebbe on this very forum. An Intersex person said they didn't want to have anything to do with the TIAQN+ variety of the LGB group. Sample size of one, so there is that. But I'd be surprised if it wasn't the majority. Many have said that they have a unique, very *difficult* path. Luckily, for the majority, they're a fraction of a fraction of a percentage. I feel for them, best I can.. But I haven't managed to be able to imagine the difficulties.
TY, Dave, for the research. I didn't know all the variations and dunno very much about how all the different [Edit: "genotypes" -> "karotypes"] present themselves. And funny how just about *any* "conversation" online can devolve down to insults pretty quickly, amongst certain people.
Those are not genders, they are developmental defects. The XYY is best-known from Richard Speck, who murdered seven student nurses.
There are others but they tend to die in the womb.