Steve this is probably my favorite conversation I've read on here about trans/gender ideology. Kudos! Kudos to both of you actually, although I didn't agree much with Laurel. I think I just appreciated the genuine quality of the debate. This is what debates should look like. Laurel thanking you for being kind was also rather heartbreakin…
Steve this is probably my favorite conversation I've read on here about trans/gender ideology. Kudos! Kudos to both of you actually, although I didn't agree much with Laurel. I think I just appreciated the genuine quality of the debate. This is what debates should look like. Laurel thanking you for being kind was also rather heartbreaking... it made me consider what they must face regularly when trying to have these sorts of conversations.
Anyway...
Laurel: "Since humans are creatures that find comfort in conformity and categorization, the most logical solution to the problem of unfortunate gender roles is to allow fluidity in gender identity."
This basically sums up my beef with this movement. It ignores literally decades of feminist and gay rights activism that led to, in my own jaded Gen-X estimation, the beginning of something good when it came to gender roles: the 90s. At long last it felt like it was okay for women and men to consider themselves women and men while still flouting stereotypes about what women and men were supposed to be like. So many supposed "feminine" men expanding the idea of how men were supposed to be. Kurt Cobain. So many supposed "masculine" women expanding the idea of how women were supposed to be. All those Riot Grrrls. Maybe I'm just locked in the past or something, but back then it was incredibly freeing to be a man and call myself a man and still personally reject what was supposed to be manly behavior. And the same thing went for the women in my life. And we also had trans people in our lives, but I'm almost afraid to sound too old-school here, because these trans friends were people who literally wanted to (and often did) change their gender because they felt they were in the wrong body. Not because "trans" meant fighting against gender stereotypes, which is where me and non-trans friends were coming from.
The changes in the past decade when it comes to gender and gender stereotypes are both frustrating and mind-boggling to me because it appears to ignore all of the work done previously that sought (successfully, I once thought) to upend gender stereotypes.
I realize that this is a typical anti-woke argument when it comes to the new gender essentialism that appears to be a part of the non-binary movement( and no doubt I'm literally repeating what I've said in past posts), but reading this conversation brought it all back.
“It ignores literally decades of feminist and gay rights activism”
Yep, this is one of many maddening aspects for me. In fact, there are significant pockets of trans activism that are actively hostile to both gay rights and feminism. And don’t even get me started on the intersection of those two groups; lesbians.
The fact that so-called progressives turn a blind eye to this blatant misogyny and homophobia (never mind the experimental surgery on children) is endlessly astonishing to me.
I think the woke have worn out their welcome. They're too extreme to not be repellent and in urging young girls to get surgery they've shown themselves to be criminally irresponsible. They want to swell their ranks and don't care how much damage they do.
Steve this is probably my favorite conversation I've read on here about trans/gender ideology. Kudos! Kudos to both of you actually, although I didn't agree much with Laurel. I think I just appreciated the genuine quality of the debate. This is what debates should look like. Laurel thanking you for being kind was also rather heartbreaking... it made me consider what they must face regularly when trying to have these sorts of conversations.
Anyway...
Laurel: "Since humans are creatures that find comfort in conformity and categorization, the most logical solution to the problem of unfortunate gender roles is to allow fluidity in gender identity."
This basically sums up my beef with this movement. It ignores literally decades of feminist and gay rights activism that led to, in my own jaded Gen-X estimation, the beginning of something good when it came to gender roles: the 90s. At long last it felt like it was okay for women and men to consider themselves women and men while still flouting stereotypes about what women and men were supposed to be like. So many supposed "feminine" men expanding the idea of how men were supposed to be. Kurt Cobain. So many supposed "masculine" women expanding the idea of how women were supposed to be. All those Riot Grrrls. Maybe I'm just locked in the past or something, but back then it was incredibly freeing to be a man and call myself a man and still personally reject what was supposed to be manly behavior. And the same thing went for the women in my life. And we also had trans people in our lives, but I'm almost afraid to sound too old-school here, because these trans friends were people who literally wanted to (and often did) change their gender because they felt they were in the wrong body. Not because "trans" meant fighting against gender stereotypes, which is where me and non-trans friends were coming from.
The changes in the past decade when it comes to gender and gender stereotypes are both frustrating and mind-boggling to me because it appears to ignore all of the work done previously that sought (successfully, I once thought) to upend gender stereotypes.
I realize that this is a typical anti-woke argument when it comes to the new gender essentialism that appears to be a part of the non-binary movement( and no doubt I'm literally repeating what I've said in past posts), but reading this conversation brought it all back.
“It ignores literally decades of feminist and gay rights activism”
Yep, this is one of many maddening aspects for me. In fact, there are significant pockets of trans activism that are actively hostile to both gay rights and feminism. And don’t even get me started on the intersection of those two groups; lesbians.
The fact that so-called progressives turn a blind eye to this blatant misogyny and homophobia (never mind the experimental surgery on children) is endlessly astonishing to me.
I think the woke have worn out their welcome. They're too extreme to not be repellent and in urging young girls to get surgery they've shown themselves to be criminally irresponsible. They want to swell their ranks and don't care how much damage they do.