This is all complex and metaphysical and pushes the limits of our abilities to empathize with someone else experiencing life in a radically different way than we do. Setting aside for now questions of how to handle this issue with children and young adults (18-21-ish), I am inclined to simply respect other people’s wishes for how they wo…
This is all complex and metaphysical and pushes the limits of our abilities to empathize with someone else experiencing life in a radically different way than we do. Setting aside for now questions of how to handle this issue with children and young adults (18-21-ish), I am inclined to simply respect other people’s wishes for how they would like to be referred to, just as I wouldn’t insist on calling you Steven, even if it’s your REAL name, if you say you prefer Steve. This is of course harder for all of us because, culturally, we’re trained to asses the gender/sex of each person we meet and think of them/treat them in different ways depending on the bucket. So it drives us nuts when they’re either hard to categorize or they want us to categorize them differently than we think they should be. Now, I’m not naive- the vast majority of humans are XX or XY, and that binary has huge biological implications. But sometimes I think we overstate the biological and understate the cultural. Look at how we interact with other species- it’s interesting to know if your friends dog is a boy or girl, but you won’t think of them in radically different ways depending on the answer. Anyway it feels like both sides of this debate can get too hung up on these distinctions. Why does it matter if the word “gay” is appropriate for Feffy’s husband? If it’s important to both of them, they can call themselves gay. I don’t see how it affects any of the rest of us whatsoever? To me, there are much thornier issues to be working through here related to how we discuss these issues with youth.
"just as I wouldn’t insist on calling you Steven, even if it’s your REAL name, if you say you prefer Steve"
Actually, Steve *is* my real name😁 It's on my birth certificate and everything. But while I too am inclined to simply respect people's wishes about how they want to be referred to, the issue runs far deeper than that. And I think this framing conflates too many different things.
First, there's the issue of pronouns and deadnames. This is referring to people as they wish to be referred to, and I am, I think, in complete agreement with you. If somebody tells me their name is Gpjrthgx, I'll do my best to pronounce it. If Dwayne Johnson tells me to use she/her pronouns, I'll oblige without the slightest protest. This is politeness.
But if Dwayne, or any other person, asks me to say that they *are* a woman, there are a bunch of other things I now need to consider. What are the implications of this person being treated identically to a woman in society? What are the potential consequences of the precedent this sets? This is no longer about politeness, it's about policy.
If I'm asked to ignore the differences between sex and gender, or to always consider gender to be more important, what does that mean for sport where we have to acknowledge that male and female bodies perform differently regardless of gender identity? This is no longer about politeness, it's about fairness.
If a friend told me her dog was a she, despite the dog's penis, I'd see that as a cause for concern. Not because I care about the dog's gender identity (nor does the dog presumably), but because a shared relationship to reality is really important. Which is the same reason I think the words are important in general; words are how we interact with that shared reality (I may also be biased as a writer).
The words don't change Feffy and his husband's relationship. And you're right, I don't really care whether his husband calls himself gay or not. If they're happy, I'm happy. But that's because the label one couple chooses doesn't tempt us to do something deeply homophobic like, for example, deny the existence of same-sex attraction. But when this happens on a wider and wider scale, you get people thinking like the tweet that started the conversation.
The more we lose sight of what words mean, the greater the implications for issues that lie far beyond the scope of politeness. I don't think the child safeguarding can be separated from the wider conversation.
I think those are all totally fair and valid concerns! I just think we miss the forest for the trees when we start quibbling with (adult) people about their individual private lives and identifiers. (Also I figured you might actually be a Steve, haha... I know a John who used to have people *insist* he was a Jonathan, he was like, WTF, I know my own name? Hahah!)
My grandma had to go to my uncle Eddie's school to tell his teachers that his name was not Edward.
Only my mother and sisters call me David, and on the rare occasions that my wife isn't calling be Honey, she will use David. Before I retired my picture ID name tag said Dave since its purpose was to inform people how to address me. Names. There is a woman whose actual name is Jelly Sandwich.
One of my favorite names was Crystal Shanda Lear (a real person, and daughter of the man behind Lear Jets). She went to the same school as my partner, many decades ago, in Geneva, Switzerland. Her family called her Shanda. (Say it out loud if you don't get it).
And I once worked with a woman whose married name was Sandy Beach.
Gay men tend to use undiminutive names; Robert, not Bob; Harold, not Harry, Christopher, not Chris (I use the latter, the former takes too long to write).
Jazz musicians go the other way. Stan Getz. Art Pepper. Bill Evans.
This is all complex and metaphysical and pushes the limits of our abilities to empathize with someone else experiencing life in a radically different way than we do. Setting aside for now questions of how to handle this issue with children and young adults (18-21-ish), I am inclined to simply respect other people’s wishes for how they would like to be referred to, just as I wouldn’t insist on calling you Steven, even if it’s your REAL name, if you say you prefer Steve. This is of course harder for all of us because, culturally, we’re trained to asses the gender/sex of each person we meet and think of them/treat them in different ways depending on the bucket. So it drives us nuts when they’re either hard to categorize or they want us to categorize them differently than we think they should be. Now, I’m not naive- the vast majority of humans are XX or XY, and that binary has huge biological implications. But sometimes I think we overstate the biological and understate the cultural. Look at how we interact with other species- it’s interesting to know if your friends dog is a boy or girl, but you won’t think of them in radically different ways depending on the answer. Anyway it feels like both sides of this debate can get too hung up on these distinctions. Why does it matter if the word “gay” is appropriate for Feffy’s husband? If it’s important to both of them, they can call themselves gay. I don’t see how it affects any of the rest of us whatsoever? To me, there are much thornier issues to be working through here related to how we discuss these issues with youth.
"just as I wouldn’t insist on calling you Steven, even if it’s your REAL name, if you say you prefer Steve"
Actually, Steve *is* my real name😁 It's on my birth certificate and everything. But while I too am inclined to simply respect people's wishes about how they want to be referred to, the issue runs far deeper than that. And I think this framing conflates too many different things.
First, there's the issue of pronouns and deadnames. This is referring to people as they wish to be referred to, and I am, I think, in complete agreement with you. If somebody tells me their name is Gpjrthgx, I'll do my best to pronounce it. If Dwayne Johnson tells me to use she/her pronouns, I'll oblige without the slightest protest. This is politeness.
But if Dwayne, or any other person, asks me to say that they *are* a woman, there are a bunch of other things I now need to consider. What are the implications of this person being treated identically to a woman in society? What are the potential consequences of the precedent this sets? This is no longer about politeness, it's about policy.
If I'm asked to view a female body as a "developmental problem", as Feffy does, what does that mean for the countless other young girls who feel discomfort with their bodies during puberty? What do we do when there's a 4000% increase in teenage girls identifying as trans (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/september/4-000-explosion-in-kids-identifying-as-transgender-docs-perform-double-mastectomies-on-healthy-teen-girls), many of whom are put on hormone therapies that permanently change their voices and bodies and have double mastectomies (https://twitter.com/StandingforXX/status/1472988554125058049?s=20&t=yFV1_eEXZ7AdAu-nZ0yPag) that they later regret (https://youtu.be/n0pVuZ0CT7Q)? This is no longer about politeness, it's about safeguarding.
If I'm asked to ignore the differences between sex and gender, or to always consider gender to be more important, what does that mean for sport where we have to acknowledge that male and female bodies perform differently regardless of gender identity? This is no longer about politeness, it's about fairness.
If a friend told me her dog was a she, despite the dog's penis, I'd see that as a cause for concern. Not because I care about the dog's gender identity (nor does the dog presumably), but because a shared relationship to reality is really important. Which is the same reason I think the words are important in general; words are how we interact with that shared reality (I may also be biased as a writer).
The words don't change Feffy and his husband's relationship. And you're right, I don't really care whether his husband calls himself gay or not. If they're happy, I'm happy. But that's because the label one couple chooses doesn't tempt us to do something deeply homophobic like, for example, deny the existence of same-sex attraction. But when this happens on a wider and wider scale, you get people thinking like the tweet that started the conversation.
The more we lose sight of what words mean, the greater the implications for issues that lie far beyond the scope of politeness. I don't think the child safeguarding can be separated from the wider conversation.
I think those are all totally fair and valid concerns! I just think we miss the forest for the trees when we start quibbling with (adult) people about their individual private lives and identifiers. (Also I figured you might actually be a Steve, haha... I know a John who used to have people *insist* he was a Jonathan, he was like, WTF, I know my own name? Hahah!)
"he was like, WTF, I know my own name? Hahah!"
😂 Yep, I know this feeling well.
My grandma had to go to my uncle Eddie's school to tell his teachers that his name was not Edward.
Only my mother and sisters call me David, and on the rare occasions that my wife isn't calling be Honey, she will use David. Before I retired my picture ID name tag said Dave since its purpose was to inform people how to address me. Names. There is a woman whose actual name is Jelly Sandwich.
"There is a woman whose actual name is Jelly Sandwich."
😂 I mean, come on! Surely this is child abuse!
One of my favorite names was Crystal Shanda Lear (a real person, and daughter of the man behind Lear Jets). She went to the same school as my partner, many decades ago, in Geneva, Switzerland. Her family called her Shanda. (Say it out loud if you don't get it).
And I once worked with a woman whose married name was Sandy Beach.
In the Richland, WA phone book there was a
Hum, Dyna Mo
"Dynamo Hum" was a Frank Zappa song.
At least you weren't saddled with a name that would fit right into a Beatrix Potter book.
Gay men tend to use undiminutive names; Robert, not Bob; Harold, not Harry, Christopher, not Chris (I use the latter, the former takes too long to write).
Jazz musicians go the other way. Stan Getz. Art Pepper. Bill Evans.
Oh what a mysterious world we live in.
Yes, it is.