Well, Hold On, You Can't Have This Both Ways
Like many people, I’m an idealist trapped in the body of a pragmatist.
I want a world where everybody thinks logically and behaves reasonably and speaks carefully. Where we argue in good faith and look at life from perspectives other than our own. Sometimes I slip on some Kenny G, close my eyes, and imagine what a utopia this would be.
In my article, Yes, Free Palestine…From Hamas, I shared an equally improbable dream for peace in the Middle East. I imagined a world where people who worshipped different gods or practised different cultures or spoke different languages nonetheless managed to live in harmony.
And I had not one, not two, but three readers try to explain why this was a pipe dream.
This conversation runs fairly long because it’s effectively three-in-one. So without further ado, Max begins with a quote from the article.
Max:
“How about we leave the land from the river to the sea, to everyone who can coexist with their fellow humans. Everyone willing to tolerate a neighbour who worships a different God or speaks a different language, everyone who wants to live in peace, without blockades or apartheid or rockets destroying their homes.”
Just to point out...
The whole idea of Israel is to provide a homeland for the Jews. This only works if there is a strong Jewish majority,
That is why allowing everyone to share the land equally isn't a realistic solution.
Steve QJ:
“That is why allowing everyone to share the land equally isn't a realistic solution.”
That's only if you accept the initial premise, which I don't. Or rather, I don't understand why it's necessary to provide an exclusive homeland to the Jews. At least, not for any reason that is about Israelis and Palestinians living in peace and not about U.S. political interests in the region.
Jewish people live all over the world. And they do so in countries that don't have a strong Jewish majority. I'm an atheist. There is no country with a strong atheist majority. Same goes for almost all of the ~4,000 active religions out there. Why does Judaism need to be different? This is a genuine question.
The plot gets thicker as Alan joins to make a distinction.
Alan:
It’s not Judaism, it is Jews. It’s not just a religion, something that a lot of people don’t understand. Most Israelis are secular, as are most other Jews around the world. But we are a people from an ancient tribe of people. And the reason for a homeland, is based on the 2000 years of oppression, demonization and genocide perpetuated on Jews. Mostly due to the Christian church. So generations upon generations have been doing this since Jews did not accept Jesus as their Savior.
Jews have been expelled, pogromed, exterminated and demonized really like no other group in the world over the last two millennia. So why is it so bad to have a relatively small strip of desert reserved for Jews? Muslims have two dozen countries that are run by Muslims. India is run by Hindus. Most of Europe for centuries were under the Catholic Church, before they became democracies. Israel is a nation the size of New Jersey with half the population. When will the rest of the world cut us some slack. Apparently, never. Just ask Elon Musk.
Steve QJ:
“Most Israelis are secular, as are most other Jews around the world. But we are a people from an ancient tribe of people.”
Well, hold on, you can't have this both ways.
I think the fairest way to describe "Jewishness" is as an ethnoreligion. Would you agree? Some Jews are Jewish by faith or conversion, others are Jewish by birth. But those who are Jewish by faith or conversion, aren't necessarily from an "ancient tribe of people." I could become Jewish if I wanted to. Or even if I just wanted to marry a Jewish woman.
So when we talk bout the Jewish people, when we talk about a homeland for people who were persecuted for generations, who are we actually talking about here? The idea of a land by birthright sounds very dubious. The idea of a land by religion sounds potentially even worse.
I didn't say it was "so bad" for a strip of land to be reserved for Jews. But if I think about it, yes, I think it's bad for a strip of land to be reserved for any religious or cultural group. Because it's trivial to see where that concept leads. Should England be "reserved" for white Anglo Saxons? Or even a strip of it? Should Christians in America be granted citizenship or movement rights that other denominations don't have? Should Zoroastrians and Pagans and Scientologists have their own homeland?
I understand that Jews have faced awful persecution over the centuries. I'm just not seeing the dots that connect that historical oppression with exclusive rights to a piece of land in perpetuity. If America stops being a majority Christian country, as it almost certainly will in a few decades, will we need to cut the Christians some slack? Will a portion of America need to be siloed off in perpetuity as a Christian homeland? This is the concept I'm not understanding.
And here, the plot gets even thicker-er as Adam joins to connect the dots.
Adam:
I'm fascinated that you're having trouble connecting the dots, to be honest, especially considering the current explosive wave of explicit antisemitism that's erupted all over the globe, in western democracies that claim tolerance and diversity as virtues. We need a defensible safe space, because we're the most scapegoated and demonized people in history, regardless of our attempts to keep our heads down and "do as the Romans". It doesn't matter how you define Judaism, it makes no difference to us whether you choose to see it as a religion or an ethnicity, we are one people, full of diversity in both genes and thought, united by our history and united by the world's ever-present hatred of us.
Why this strip of land? Because it's always been our strip of land, and even during the two thousand years of exile we have remained indigenous to it, and even maintained a constant presence.
One thing that needs to be understood is that our modern Jewish state is founded on principles of tolerance and freedom of religion. The Arabs and other ethnicities that live in Israel are given equal rights and are free to practice as they choose. That does not extend to the Palestinians, and that's not because of "apartheid" - which is a term I particularly detest because I grew up under actual apartheid and I know all about it. The Palestinians are not Israelis, they have never accepted Israel's legitimacy or Israel's laws, and we have no choice but to separate ourselves from them. This is not one country, it is not one state, and any cries of "apartheid" are disingenuous at best.
Just like describing our actions in Gaza right now as "collective punishment" are disingenous. That's not our intention, and it's outside of our control. We have to protect our people, and Hamas has done everything in its power to make it look like we're the villain. Not only by over-counting casualties, but by counting their operatives as civilians, by forcing the Palestinians to remain in danger, by shooting them themselves and blaming us.
I will say this, though - what's happening right now is awful for both sides, and although the rest of the world doesn't understand what's going on, we over here do; right now there's a unifying force for both the non-Jihadist Palestinians and the Israeli population (Jew and Arab alike), and that's the need to free the Palestinians from Hamas. There are signs that once this horror show is over, we may actually be able to move forward with the Gazan people for the first time since the Arab world decided to subjugate them and use them as pawns for their attempted genocide.
Let's all pray for a real miracle - for real peace - and an opportunity for some healing for all of us.
Steve QJ:
“Because it's always been our strip of land, and even during the two thousand years of exile we have remained indigenous to it, and even maintained a constant presence.”
How exactly does one own a strip of land? What grants this people, diverse in both genes and thought, rights over this land? How has it “always been your strip of land” when it used to belong to the Romans? Who owns America? Or Britain? Or Germany? Nobody owns land. Certainly not by virtue of birth or faith.
And as for Israel being a defensible safe space, as I said, Jews live all over the world. And the place they're in the most danger, by far, is Israel.
As I'm sure you know, Gaza has a population of around 2.3 million people. Around 30,000 of those are Hamas. So just over 1%. Yet water and electricity and supplies have been cut off to all of Gaza. All of Gaza is under blockade and has been for decades. Almost all of Gaza, far more than 1.3%, is being bombed into oblivion. Collective punishment is a term of international law. You don't get to dismiss it as disingenuous because it doesn't paint Israel in a positive light.
And killing innocent civilians in Gaza doesn't "protect your people." It puts them in danger as surely and predictably as Hamas' atrocities put Palestinians in Gaza in danger. You can't bomb your way out of this problem.
So I join you in praying for peace. It doesn't require a miracle, just common sense, honesty, and a willingness to look at this situation from a perspective other than your own. I'm still just about optimistic enough to believe that doesn't qualify as a miracle.
Adam:
> Nobody owns land. Certainly not by virtue of birth or faith.
I also believe that the world would be better off post-state and post-nation, but unfortunately we're not quite there yet. It looks like we all still need to evolve a bit more. If you disagree with the history and legitimacy of the State of Israel, I feel like I'm probably not going to be the one to convince you to change your mind.
> And the place they're in the most danger, by far, is Israel.
That's simply not true, and the rise in antisemitic attacks globally over the past couple of decades demonstrates that. The attacks on Jews all over the western world over the past few weeks demonstrates that. Israel is the only place that we're at all safe to be Jews, and it's because we have an army to defend ourselves; Israel is the only refuge international Jewry has when their fellow countryfolk (inevitably, historically) turn against them. Pogroms and holocausts are not new to us, we've been vilified for millenia.
As for the rest, what our army is doing and how it's doing it, you have the right to disagree with facts, that's okay. As someone with military experience I'd love to hear how you would approach the situation if you were in our shoes, we're a very innovative and progressive people and we'll give any good idea a chance!
All things considered, I appreciate that your intentions are good. That counts for a lot these days.
Steve QJ:
“That's simply not true, and the rise in antisemitic attacks globally over the past couple of decades demonstrates that.”
Were 1200 Jews killed even collectively in these attacks? Never mind in a single day? Because that's what just happened in what you describe as “the only place it's safe to be a Jew.” To say nothing, of course, of the many other attacks that have taken place in Israel over the past couple of decades. To be clear, I'm not arguing against the existence of Israel, I'm arguing against some of the assumptions about what it is or how it should operate.
I'm also pretty sure I'm not arguing with any facts. But I don't think the solution to this problem is a military one. At least not entirely. Hamas needs to be removed/destroyed. No argument from me. But to end this conflict, the blockade needs to end. It should be obvious to anybody who's paying even a little bit of attention that there will never be stable peace while 2 million people are blockaded in the Gaza strip right next-door to Israel.
Israel will need to make concessions. So will Palestine. And these will need to be made at the negotiating table, not through the crosshairs of a rifle. That's my (and many other people's) suggestion. And I guarantee you, if there's ever lasting peace in the region, it'll be because somebody took it.
Adam:
> Because that's what just happened in what you describe as "the only place it's safe to be a Jew." To say nothing, of course, of the many other attacks that have taken place in Israel over the past couple of decades.
Tell me something: do you have experience with having to hide your ethnicity in order to be "safe"? Or do you know what it's like to look like an "other" amongst people who see you as a threat, or as less than you? I don't know you or anything about you, but a quick glance at your profile picture tells me you do. Jews in the diaspora tend to blend in wherever they've settled, so we have that privilege - on condition we keep our mouths shut, our religious symbols hidden, and smile to hide our fear when people say antisemitic things around us. Here, in Israel, we are allowed to be our authentic selves, unapologetically.
Let's do that math again, shall we? Only this time, count Jews all over the world. Count how many of them have been killed in recent decades, count how many of them live in fear. What took place on October 7th is indeed our darkest day since the holocaust, but we've never been safe anywhere. Things have been getting worse for us over the past couple of decades. Nobody has cared but us.
...
I find it almost comical that you seem to think any of us is disagreeing on your last points, you're absolutely right. The only reason there's a blockade is because Hamas took charge, because they posed a clear and present danger to us.
Your statement of "not through the crosshairs of a rifle" is misdirected - we have sat down at the negotiating table over and over since the establishment of our state, each time making huge concessions, each time rejected by the Palestinians because they (as proxies for nations like Iran) could accept nothing less than Israel in its entirety, an Israel with no Jews (this whole thing about accepting us is "washing", for the same reason that Jews have been almost completely ethnically cleansed from the rest of the middle east). There is no solution for peace with Hamas, which is why we have to go in and clear them out, but with the Palestinian people? That's a different story altogether.
We will sit down at that table again. If there's a silver lining to all this horror, it's that we feel (and have some evidence) that the Palestinian people might actually be ready to talk to us for the very first time. And we welcome them to do so.
Steve QJ:
“Tell me something: do you have experience with having to hide your ethnicity in order to be "safe"?”
Haha, are you kidding me? Do you have experience with being unable to hide your ethnicity in order to be "safe"? To have your skin mark you as a slave or someone who needs to be segregated from others or a "thug" or an "affirmative action hire"? Are we really going to play oppression olympics here? Because I find that game extraordinarily boring.
Most Jews, even in Israel (yes, I've been to Israel), blend in. As Alan points out in the comment above, most Israelis are secular, as are most other Jews around the world. And there are many communities around the world where Orthodox/ Hasidic Jews live harmoniously with people of different faiths. My girlfriend lives in one.
And sure, let's do that math again. I asked you to, in fact. But you haven't presented any math here. 1200 Jews were killed in a single day in Israel. Many more have been killed in Israel over the past two decades. I'm betting plenty of Israelis are currently living in fear. I'm unaware of anything close to this anywhere else in the world in the same time period. So I'm asking you, on what basis do you say Israel is the only place it's safe to be a Jew?
Yes, some people hate Jews. Some people hate black people too. But to pretend that you're in danger everywhere you go or that "nobody cares about you" or that the world has an "ever present hatred of you" is not true. Not for you or for me. I don't know why so many minority communities are in love with the notion that they're on the verge of being “genocided” recently.
I didn't say we were disagreeing about the blockade. You asked me what I thought and I told you. But I've spoken to several people, some in the comments of this article, who believe lifting the blockade is impossible. And it's certainly difficult. But Hamas, as I'm sure you know, is a problem that Israel helped create.
We agree completely that Hamas can't be reasoned with. But as I think I've said to you (I've said it so many times at this point I've lost track), I don't believe Hamas can be bombed out of Gaza. Not only because obliterating an ideological group with force is next to impossible, but because every dead Palestinian radicalises new Palestinians into hating Israel. And there are currently a lot of dead Palestinians. Yes, Hamas need to be removed from power. But I think the best way to do that is to work with the Palestinian people.
There will likely be people in the region who hate Israel for many years to come. There are bad, antisemitic reason for that. But there are also understandable, non-religious reasons for that. Israel has killed an awful lot of fathers and mothers and children. To change that hate, Israel needs a new approach. And needs to recognise that all objections to Israel's behaviour over the past decades are not antisemitism.
Adam:
Firstly, you totally misread my intentions. I'm not into oppression olympics either, but having said that, you are doing a great job of invalidating our lived experience. I, on the other hand, was relying on you having yours to give you some perspective on what we're going through. My bad, I guess?
The fact that you think Jews are safe and living harmoniously demonstrates a wide disconnect between how you perceive our place in the world, and how we perceive our place in the world. The fact that you don't recognize that we are dealing with a literal attempt at genocide by those seeking to create an Islamic State is a cause for concern, but no matter. We've seen how the world responded to the massacre on October 7th. We see how the world responds to us defending ourselves. You can choose to play the equivocation game if you want; you're obviously a smart guy, you're perfectly capable of rationalizing whatever and however you choose.
> But I think the best way to do that is to work with the Palestinian people.
The above shows a complete lack of understanding for the situation in Israel and Gaza. There is no way to work with the Palestinian people unless Hamas is out of the picture. Anyone who doesn't support Hamas has been completely and thoroughly subjugated, they have no voice. The Palestinians who are suffering the most know exactly what's happening, and they know exactly why it's happening, even if you and the rest of the world don't.
Even so, a lot is going to have to go into shifting the ideological backdrop of the situation, on both sides. Of course we have to change our approach - you're preaching to the choir. But please understand: it's very hard to change your approach in real time when you're on defense; I have yet to hear a single suggestion of what we should be doing that we haven't already tried.
As I've written in that article I linked to, I'm actually feeling optimistic for the first time since the second intifada broke out that we have real potential for change right now. Both based on how we Israelis are talking collectively - there's generally broad consensus rejecting our government and its policies for the first time in many decades - and Palestinians that are starting to come out (even if they can only do so anonymously right now) to tell stories that suggest that change is coming.
You can justify the unreasonable scrutiny for and judgement of Israel's activities however you like, you have an internet full of misrepresentations and ignorant nonsense at your disposal. At the end of the day, I guess opinions of people outside of our region who don't understand the reality on the ground don't matter quite as much as we worry they do.
...
Having said all that... I think, in spite of the points we've been arguing, that we agree on the fundamentals that matter the most. I believe your intentions are good, and I do appreciate that you're not simply regurgitating everyone else's talking points. Thanks for trying to balanced, that's a brave stance in the current climate.
Steve QJ:
“I, on the other hand, was relying on you having yours to give you some perspective on what we're going through.”
I think you were relying on me to parrot the oppression narratives that are so popular with some people in the black community and other minority communities. But I find no comfort in false victimhood.
The response of almost every developed nation in the world was to stand behind Israel. Even as they bombed, and continue to bomb, innocent people. Yes, there have been awful antisemitic protests. We've all seen them. I wrote condemning them. But to pretend this is how "the world responded" is just so disingenuous.
And how do you not understand that right now, pro-Palestinian people are claiming that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza? And given the 1200/10,000+ ratio, they have a pretty strong case. God, I swear, as with so many issues today, if people on both sides could just try looking from a perspective other than their own, we'd have these issues solved in a day.
Yes, I've already agreed that Hamas needs to be removed. But for several reasons, I don't think bombing Gazan civilians is the way to do it. Aside from the obvious humanitarian issues (knowing "exactly why" you're being meaninglessly slaughtered for something you didn’t do is probably cold comfort), there's the war of public opinion. Israel, having had almost unanimous support after Oct 7th, is losing it by killing so many innocent civilians. And Hamas knows it. Arguably, that was their plan all along. They have no problem with using Palestinian civilians as pawns.
But we'll see. History will prove one approach or the other correct. I just hope as few people as possible die as we watch that old definition of madness (doing the same thing and expecting different results) play out.
Adam:
> But we'll see. History will prove one approach or the other correct. I just hope as few people as possible die as we watch that old definition of madness (doing the same thing and expecting different results) play out.
Even as our perspectives are opposing, at least on this point, we are in agreement.
The idealist view of humanity is that we’re capable of dazzling compassion and ingenuity. And by harnessing these qualities, we can solve almost any problems or disagreements we face. And this is all true. We’ve proven it many times.
But the pragmatic view is that we’re also self-interested and fearful and occasionally very stubborn, and we need to find ways to work around these flaws before we get to all the aforementioned good stuff.
I talk a lot about empathy because I think it’s the bridge between these two faces of our nature. Most of us, if we try, can put ourselves in other people's shoes. But when we’re angry or afraid, most of us don’t try.
Most of us, if we try, can humanise people who are different to us. But the moment we feel attacked, most of us stop trying.
And almost all of us, even without trying, can agree that the murder of innocent people is wrong. And given that we all know and love at least a few innocent people, let's never stop trying to see this.
Welp, a few of the comments here are dong a fabulous job of highlighting the divide between how good were capable of being and how we sometimes are. I though there was only one topic at the moment that turned otherwise smart, sane people into ad hominem machines, but it looks like we have another contender.
I'll be going through and deleting some of the the most unproductive comments. C'mon guys, you're better than this. You can disagree. There's a lot to this conflict worth thinking about. But disagreeing does not an enemy make. Yelling at each other doesn't make your arguments more convincing.
I'm going to look at this from a very different vantage point that may or may not become clear.
About 54 years ago while in SE Asia I saw the Chinese as 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘑𝘦𝘸𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘖𝘳𝘪𝘦𝘯𝘵. At the time, outside of China they were in a state of diaspora. They could not own land and farm, so they became the businessmen who in some cases ended up financially well off, and they were despised for it. Sounding familiar yet? Largely segregated to 𝘊𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘢 𝘛𝘰𝘸𝘯𝘴 (ghettos). Sounding familiar yet?
My wife, raised in a land where bargaining is common is better at it than me. When car buying, I need to shut up and let her do her thing. For many years she thought I was saying "chew someone down" when bargaining since she had never heard of the rather racist "Jew someone down" that I grew up with. The Marxist oppressor and oppressed worldview where the names bourgeoisie and proletariat have been replaced by other tribal names. But the Jews may forever be seen as the bourgeoisie to people wrapped up in the idea that they are oppressed victims.
How does this apply? Back then, two of my wife to be's neighbors were the 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘰𝘳 𝘸𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘴 to Chinese men who I got to know. One owned a restaurant in China Town (a story with that that I will save) and was a man of wealth. I've known several Chinese wheeler dealers thru the years. Between the first and last time I've been in China their economy and wealth has grown tremendously and they have become a military power destined to be the dominant force worldwide. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘣𝘶𝘺 𝘧𝘳𝘪𝘦𝘯𝘥𝘴.
Israel is also a military power with wealth. But there is a difference in that their enemies want to exterminate them. Even though the average Jew is non-practicing, they as a people rejected Mohamad as God's messenger and their haters will not forget it. They have bought some friends in the Muslim world, but as a Saudi friend once said to me, "Never trust a Saudi. Not even me." China is buying debt slaves; Israel does not have that power so they cannot extricate themselves from their fate. At least not on that patch of land and not for long if they appear to.
As the realtors say, "location, location, location!" They might have lived in peace if they had been given Utah, rather than 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘏𝘰𝘭𝘺 𝘓𝘢𝘯𝘥. I would like to be optimistic, but I think that that location sealed their fate. Meanwhile, the rest of the mob on the internet goes on and on with whose fault it all is and who is the biggest bad guy. I didn't bother to mention all of the terrible shit being done by the tribes; we know that. That is all very real, but I'll repeat, I think that the location is a cornerstone in this.