Read the criticism of "The Bell Curve" and you will see that it is not as simple as we would like it to be. The authors of that book did that but made the results of their study seem more significant than it was.
Read the criticism of "The Bell Curve" and you will see that it is not as simple as we would like it to be. The authors of that book did that but made the results of their study seem more significant than it was.
Not hard, considering most people have no grasp of statistics. And it's not easy to teach, introductory statistics is part of the undergraduate college curriculum.
What are your specific criticisms? I'll reread their analysis instead of just dismissing it as racist. Do you see this as a racist effort aside from your criticisms?
Charles Murray has been willing to debate, a standard Steve raised for taking someone seriously. I don't think it a matter of racism as some accuse. The book seemed compelling to me upon reading it and I like to think I hold racism in check. If you are my age you lived thru a hell of a lot of racist assumptions that leave callous in the face of honest effort to overcome it.
I never got in more trouble as a child than when I mentioned race. And though I've gone through a few periods of brief and mild bigotry I always overcame them, and several times I've had black friends and coworkers who told me in very direct terms that I was truly a decent person, that I didn't treat them poorly, nor overcompensate.
The one case I still have some trouble with is Indians. Dot, not feather. There are a lot of H1-Bs in software and a lot of the are really obnoxious and have a terrible work ethic, but that's culture. And before Microsoft added American Hygiene Expectations to new employee orientation in India, a lot of them thought showering more than weekly would make their skin come off, and the BO was enough to make your eyes water.
In 2020 I had an Indian coworker who was probably the worst in every way; he had no pride in his work, did the least he could get away with, did lousy work, and boasted about clearing tasks, however shabbily, was uncommunicative to the point that I had to escalate to management, something I really dislike doing. I struggled to see him as "a lousy coworker" and not as "an Indian." In the end, I wrote up the experience on Medium and made almost $3000 on that one article, buying a nice Moog with the money. I never mentioned his nationality but I didn't have to, so, of course, I got a few jabs of "racist" but for every one of those I had a dozen for whom the article was resonant af.
I did a great deal of international travel, mostly working with people, rather than as a tourist which makes quite a difference in how you get to know people. I never got sent to India, I was not the only traveler in the org. My "strong" people experience was elsewhere but I have developed an ability to tolerate horrible smells.
I worked with what were first wave H1-B workers in my industry and had a manager who led the way in hiring where most managers were a bit more reluctant. Her difficulty, which became mine as a mentor, was that she was able to hire software types, but we were hardware test and you had to understand electronic hardware to write software that did the job. It's a narrow niche field.
At the risk of sounding sexist, I found the women to be harder, conscientious workers. But as someone who has worked in strongly male dominated fields, electronic and mechanical, before diversity hiring became a thing, women entering those fields had to be damned good to overcome prejudices, in my observation.
Looking past tribes and viewing people as individuals has generally come easily for me, which might be the reason I seem to have been well received by people outside of my tribe. It's good that I've retired since I would probably find working with people who have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to intersectionality.
I needed to periodically remind myself that the two best managers I ever had in my 30+ years in IT were both Indian. But the work ethic thing I mentioned came through again and again. And not only in my experience; I took over a project in Windows Mobile at MS working under a manager who told me that what they had gotten from Tata after a year of paying six developers did not even show a window before it crashed and they still demanded to get paid. I did it to completion singlehandedly in four months.
He was pretty disgusted.
Agreed on the women being better workers.
After the dotcom crash when thousands of us were out of work I interviewed for a job paying half what I had been getting, a job I didn't want but out of desperation for the money, and the Indian interviewer was so condescending that I don't exaggerate to say he's lucky to be alive. I hear the same from many, many others.
This guy in 2020 was passionate in his mediocrity, I know no other way to describe it.
Absolutely. But few honestly debate him that I've found. Mostly he's portrayed as an old, malicious dinosaur trapped in his sense of white privilege. Or they dismiss his social scientific approach as fouled by white assumptions and a corrupt epistemology of logic and objectivity.
I remember when Bell Curve came out. Conservatives ate it up because it said black people are stupid and everyone with an education pointed out his abuses of statistics and it was widely believed that he already had his conclusions and played with statistics to back them up.
In interviews he sounded pretty mild, even earnest, but, well, you've read Gould.
I just took a quick look and it seems like the substance of the criticism is that "race" is too meaningless a concept to be a statistical category. I agree!! I just wish that the rest of the world did too. But sadly, we are going backwards on this if anything. Just spend 5 minutes reading anything by Ibram Kendi.
Speaking of the meaninglessness of racial categories, I just finished watching the Super Bowl. One of the things about racial discourse that has confounded me is that the slaveowner's concept of the "one drop" rule has been happily carried over into the 21st Century.
So, Rihanna and Patrick Mahomes are "black." What does this mean? Does it respect their choice? Does it refer to culture? If so, I'm down with that. But let's call it what it is. A choice. Does the rest of the world give Rihanna and Patrick Mahomes that choice? Maybe not. I just wish they didn't have to make it.
Read the criticism of "The Bell Curve" and you will see that it is not as simple as we would like it to be. The authors of that book did that but made the results of their study seem more significant than it was.
Not hard, considering most people have no grasp of statistics. And it's not easy to teach, introductory statistics is part of the undergraduate college curriculum.
What are your specific criticisms? I'll reread their analysis instead of just dismissing it as racist. Do you see this as a racist effort aside from your criticisms?
Charles Murray has been willing to debate, a standard Steve raised for taking someone seriously. I don't think it a matter of racism as some accuse. The book seemed compelling to me upon reading it and I like to think I hold racism in check. If you are my age you lived thru a hell of a lot of racist assumptions that leave callous in the face of honest effort to overcome it.
I never got in more trouble as a child than when I mentioned race. And though I've gone through a few periods of brief and mild bigotry I always overcame them, and several times I've had black friends and coworkers who told me in very direct terms that I was truly a decent person, that I didn't treat them poorly, nor overcompensate.
The one case I still have some trouble with is Indians. Dot, not feather. There are a lot of H1-Bs in software and a lot of the are really obnoxious and have a terrible work ethic, but that's culture. And before Microsoft added American Hygiene Expectations to new employee orientation in India, a lot of them thought showering more than weekly would make their skin come off, and the BO was enough to make your eyes water.
In 2020 I had an Indian coworker who was probably the worst in every way; he had no pride in his work, did the least he could get away with, did lousy work, and boasted about clearing tasks, however shabbily, was uncommunicative to the point that I had to escalate to management, something I really dislike doing. I struggled to see him as "a lousy coworker" and not as "an Indian." In the end, I wrote up the experience on Medium and made almost $3000 on that one article, buying a nice Moog with the money. I never mentioned his nationality but I didn't have to, so, of course, I got a few jabs of "racist" but for every one of those I had a dozen for whom the article was resonant af.
I did a great deal of international travel, mostly working with people, rather than as a tourist which makes quite a difference in how you get to know people. I never got sent to India, I was not the only traveler in the org. My "strong" people experience was elsewhere but I have developed an ability to tolerate horrible smells.
I worked with what were first wave H1-B workers in my industry and had a manager who led the way in hiring where most managers were a bit more reluctant. Her difficulty, which became mine as a mentor, was that she was able to hire software types, but we were hardware test and you had to understand electronic hardware to write software that did the job. It's a narrow niche field.
At the risk of sounding sexist, I found the women to be harder, conscientious workers. But as someone who has worked in strongly male dominated fields, electronic and mechanical, before diversity hiring became a thing, women entering those fields had to be damned good to overcome prejudices, in my observation.
Looking past tribes and viewing people as individuals has generally come easily for me, which might be the reason I seem to have been well received by people outside of my tribe. It's good that I've retired since I would probably find working with people who have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to intersectionality.
I needed to periodically remind myself that the two best managers I ever had in my 30+ years in IT were both Indian. But the work ethic thing I mentioned came through again and again. And not only in my experience; I took over a project in Windows Mobile at MS working under a manager who told me that what they had gotten from Tata after a year of paying six developers did not even show a window before it crashed and they still demanded to get paid. I did it to completion singlehandedly in four months.
He was pretty disgusted.
Agreed on the women being better workers.
After the dotcom crash when thousands of us were out of work I interviewed for a job paying half what I had been getting, a job I didn't want but out of desperation for the money, and the Indian interviewer was so condescending that I don't exaggerate to say he's lucky to be alive. I hear the same from many, many others.
This guy in 2020 was passionate in his mediocrity, I know no other way to describe it.
Absolutely. But few honestly debate him that I've found. Mostly he's portrayed as an old, malicious dinosaur trapped in his sense of white privilege. Or they dismiss his social scientific approach as fouled by white assumptions and a corrupt epistemology of logic and objectivity.
I remember when Bell Curve came out. Conservatives ate it up because it said black people are stupid and everyone with an education pointed out his abuses of statistics and it was widely believed that he already had his conclusions and played with statistics to back them up.
In interviews he sounded pretty mild, even earnest, but, well, you've read Gould.
Where do I read this criticism? Can you summarize it? Seems like very simple and straightforward statistical analysis to me.
https://open.substack.com/pub/steveqj/p/you-just-need-to-look-beyond-correlation
Good discussion.
I just took a quick look and it seems like the substance of the criticism is that "race" is too meaningless a concept to be a statistical category. I agree!! I just wish that the rest of the world did too. But sadly, we are going backwards on this if anything. Just spend 5 minutes reading anything by Ibram Kendi.
Did I understand you correctly Dave?
Speaking of the meaninglessness of racial categories, I just finished watching the Super Bowl. One of the things about racial discourse that has confounded me is that the slaveowner's concept of the "one drop" rule has been happily carried over into the 21st Century.
So, Rihanna and Patrick Mahomes are "black." What does this mean? Does it respect their choice? Does it refer to culture? If so, I'm down with that. But let's call it what it is. A choice. Does the rest of the world give Rihanna and Patrick Mahomes that choice? Maybe not. I just wish they didn't have to make it.
The book that Chris recommended in the comments is a good read on the subject.