We Can't Have A Productive Conversation If You Insist On Speaking In Hyperbole

We don't agree on much lately. I mean, we're all against poverty and child abuse and that weird face Tucker Carlson makes when he's listening. But on many of the other pressing issues of the day, it feels like we’re further apart than ever.

But this doesn’t mean that there’s no hope. It just means we need to get better at talking to each other.

In my article, The Corrosive Cost of Cancel Culture, I suggested that we can discuss our differences like human beings when we disagree, instead of punishing each other for “wrong-think.”

Tom wasn’t quite ready for such a revolutionary idea.

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Tom:

We see that even in the most extreme cases, suppressing bad ideas doesn’t stop people from believing them. Persuasion does.

But none of your examples show that!

In each case, the person question received legal penalties - were in effect cancelled by the law - before they started to realize that what they did was wrong.

To prove your case, you'd need to show some examples where white supremacists or other baddies were doing perfectly well, and then decided, only based on persuasion, to change their ways.

My takeaway from the article is that we need to use the power of the law and the power of the boycott to destroy these people's positions within their corrupt organizations, and only then will they rethink their evil ways.

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Steve QJ:

But none of your examples show that!

Ugh, come on now. You're not even trying here.

First, that line you highlighted contains a link to what I meant by "the most extreme cases". Specifically, a black man who deradicalises KKK members by going to rallies and talking to them. He's been successful with over 200 if memory serves. And many of them have gone on to deradicalise others.

Second, of the three examples I gave at the top of the article, only one of them involved any legal penalties. And it wasn't the legal penalty itself that was transformative. So in fact all of my examples show that!

I think a key point to understand is that there are no examples of white supremacists or other "baddies" who are doing perfectly well. Nobody who is running around attacking people who have done nothing to them is a happy person. Nobody who joins a group like this, especially at a young age, has a healthy network of friends and family. Barrett is in tears when he returns to Oprah's show as he remembers how lost he was back in his "white supremacist" days.

There will always be numerous factors that lead to somebody changing their ways. For better or for worse. There's never a magic keyword that instantly transforms somebody's thinking. But if you think the best way to do it is by "destroying these people's positions within their corrupt organisations" (I mean, give me a break😅), especially in many cases, for mistakes they made years ago, I daresay you've never sincerely tried to change somebody's mind.

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Tom:

Thanks for a very polite and rational answer.

I hope you're right. I hung out in America for decades hoping we could lure back people. But they just got nastier and nastier and their beliefs more and more horrifying.

I'm an English Socialist now living in the Netherlands, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but this gives me some detachment.

Your average American progressive or Democrat has seen their every single hope stymied for generations now. And the people who are doing it have gone all out to be hateful and dishonest, and to elect public figures who distill the hatefulness and amplify it.

And they have every reason to believe things are going to be even worse in the future.

Asking the "left" such as it is in the US to make nice with the very architects of their misfortunes!, with people who will tell horrible lies right to their face which they will have to swallow and ignore is too much to ask. Only a few people with infinite optimism and patience will ever do that.

Finally, who are these non-horrible leaders on the right? Where are they? People like Trump, DeSantis, Cruz, Carlson, Boebert, Greene go out of their way to be as awful as they can in every possible situation and the result is that they are wildly popular.

"By their fruits you will recognize them." Could it be that these monstrous leaders are not an accident but reflect the values of their constituents?

Anyway, thanks for a good discussion, and if you ever make it to Amsterdam, I'll buy you a meal and we can talk about a better world.

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Steve QJ:

Your average American progressive or Democrat has seen their every single hope stymied for generations now.

Again, we can't have a productive conversation if you insist on speaking in hyperbole instead of English.

Generations you say? In that case, not a "single hope" of the average American progressive or Democrat has included the end of segregation, the voting rights act, abortion rights, gay marriage, a two-term black president (in fact, black people at all the highest levels of government), the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell, on and on (I'm sure I could go on for ages if I tried).

Why is it that the political left is so enamoured with this vision of themselves as failures?!

All of this has happened in what? The past 60 years? I'd say that's pretty sterling work! Yes, yes, yes, there's more to be done. Progress has been neither smooth nor perfect. I'd be the first to agree. But we don't need to pretend to face down the apocalypse to recognise there's more to do.

And I didn't say anything about non-horrible leaders on the right, so I'm not sure why you're asking me who they are. Certainly since Trump they're harder to see. I still remember the good old days of John McCain defending Barack Obama against some racist bullshit from one of his own supporters. Mitt Romney is one of admittedly only a very few who I can immediately think showed some integrity in the Trump era.

Just as it isn't necessary to pretend that it's still 1865 to acknowledge that there's still progress to be made, it's not necessary to pretend that everybody to the right of you is evil incarnate. Sometimes people just think differently. Sometimes they have good, smart reasons for doing so. But if you get comfortable assuming that everybody who disagrees with you is evil, you lose the ability to think.

Might take you up on that offer 😁 I love Amsterdam.

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I know as well as anybody that talking to people you disagree with can be infuriating. Some people’s views are truly disgusting. Others are worryingly unhinged. And in many cases, even if they realise they’re wrong, they’ll never admit it.

But some people are willing to rethink their assumptions. Some people are willing to acknowledge uncomfortable truths. And even if we don’t make a breakthrough on the first attempt, sometimes we plant a seed that might bear fruit later. Pretending that everybody who isn’t on your side is evil, or exaggerating the problems in society to the point of parody, only makes it harder to make progress.

Conversations can be hard. But they’re essential. They’re how we learn and grow and expand our perspective. They’re how we keep our own biases and delusions in check. And if you’re lucky, you might even get a free meal in Amsterdam for your trouble!