Trying To Suggest Otherwise Based On Evidence And Data Is Gaslighting

On November 6th, 2017, Stephen Pinker gave a talk at Harvard about the dangers of unspeakable truths.

Whether it’s because they place too much faith in one or two news sources, because they’re trapped in bubbles on college campuses, or because social media algorithms only feed them information that they agree with, more and more people are being sheltered from basic facts about the world.

And as Pinker points out, this leads to two potential negative outcomes.

The first is that when these people encounter the truth for the first time, they feel angry and betrayed and unable to think clearly about the implications. The information acts, “like a bacillus to which they have no immunity. And they’re immediately infected with both the feeling of outrage that these truths are unsayable, and no defence against taking them to what we might consider to be rather repellent conclusions.”

The second is that knowledge of these truths is treated as trickery of some kind. New information isn’t examined and verified, but dismissed and demonised. Usually along with the person who provided it.

In my article, Let’s Just Say It—BLM Has Been A Disaster For Black People, I laid out a few truths about police brutality. And pointed out that refusing to talk about them has negative consequences for everybody. Black and white. Rosalyn wasn’t in the mood for new information.

p.s. The following conversation took place in the comments of a different article, but that’s a whole other story that I’ll get to in the coming weeks. Buckle up, it’s a long one.

---

Rosalyn:

Policing, and police, in America are white supremacist from the ground up. Have you ever read Playing in the Dark by Toni Morrison? Black people and a possible Black uprising are forever, and always, in the imagination of white Americans. The police are not immune to this; in fact, they are an organization that exists, even now, because of that fear and hatred. In fact they reinforce it on a daily basis. White police officers have told me this. Racist white people become cops to be racists/kkk with badges.

They also become cops and recruit each other to overtly have a racist agenda. Why would the white man, a police officer, who told me this lie? Why don’t you want to believe if? Police also have other issues. They beat their wives. They are often criminals who are corrupt and perform other crimes. Yes they occasionally kill white people. But this doesn’t make them any less white supremacist. They sell drugs and guns but that doesn’t mean they’re not white supremacists at the core.

---

Steve QJ:

“Black people and a possible Black uprising are forever, and always, in the imagination of white Americans.”

Yep, there’s a degree of truth to this. At least in some cases. But not to the claim that the police exist to enforce hatred and fear. As I pointed out to Johnny, ~98% of the millions of police encounters that take place every year are completely non violent. As in, not even a raised voice or angry tone.

That's still a big deal, 2% of ~54 million is over a million incidents. But then we also have to bear in mind that many police encounters are with actual criminals guilty of committing actual crimes. It's not easy to deal with those people without raising your voice or using physical force.

I have no desire to deny or avoid the fact that there is violence and racism in the police force. We can, and should talk seriously about it without resorting to hyperbole and hysteria. Because failing to avoid hyperbole make it almost impossible to talk about these issues intelligently.

---

---

Rosalyn:

It is not hyperbole or hysteria. You’re gaslighting. Also they might not exist officially to spread hatred, fear, and terrorize Black people…but they do. I have to ask you do you understand systemic racism? It’s in all systems of America and the police are not immune. They are criticized, and we ask for reform, because unlike the others, they can kill with impunity. Along with the criminal justice system, they can ruin lives, families, and communities with unfair, or wrong, charges and penalties.

Like life in prison for a crime you didn’t commit. Tougher sentences for marijuana that negatively impacts Black people when white people use it more. Why??? Because Black people are more likely to be pulled over. You’re saying 2% of interactions with police end in violence. These are traffic stops! Mostly unwarranted because of racial profiling. That’s not while a crime is being committed.

You think Black men and women should be murdered or beaten for not using a signal, not having their lights on, or speeding. George Floyd was killed over allegations, that have not been proven, that he had a counterfeit bill. It’s not right. Black lives do matter. Yes, 2% is too much. Once is too much.

---

“You think Black men and women should be murdered or beaten for not using a signal, not having their lights on, or speeding.”

I hereby retract my claim that Rosalyn was being hyperbolic. This is obviously a completely factual and reasonable statement.

---

Steve QJ:

“You’re gaslighting.”

Ugh. "gaslighting." Is there a single more overused (and misused) word in the English language at the moment?

No, it's not gaslighting, it’s data. If you'd read the study, instead of skimming the top three lines, you'd know that it's not referring only to traffic stops but to all encounters with police. The section you looked at was just drawing out a few highlights from the main study and putting them up top.

Yes, we can talk about the many instances of racial disparities in policing. I've said over and over again that there is racial bias in the police force. No serious person would ever deny that. Sentencing disparities, traffic stops, combative behaviour from officers. I'm well aware.

But that's a separate issue that BLM has also largely ignored. And at least they didn't ever claim to be focused on sentencing disparities or fundraise off the back of that issue. Which is why I didn't mention it.

As for me "thinking black men and women should be murdered for not using a signal" (what a stupid thing to say), my point is that Tony Timpa, for example, was killed after calling the police himself. He was off his meds and afraid he might hurt himself or somebody else. He was already restrained when the police arrived, and they still knelt on his back as he suffocated to death. Cracking jokes as he died. No allegations that hadn't been proven. No allegations at all. Just an innocent, mentally ill man who made the mistake of calling on some violent, unaccountable assholes.

This is the problem I'm pointing to. It affects everybody. Black, white, and all shades in between. Everybody should be working together to solve it.

---

Rosalyn:

It is gaslighting. Sorry you don’t understand the term. Or that everything is connected. You can’t look at these issues separately when they’re all relevant to the problem with police. That’s the point.

Also I didn’t read your study. It’s a fact that police mostly murder and brutalize during traffic violations. Not during the commission of actual crimes. Throw in them responding to 9-1-1 calls. That’s why it’s argued that they’re killing unarmed people, people who didn’t deserve it. Criminality has nothing to do with it.

And using stats on who commits the most crimes is irrelevant. You’re lacking nuance and that’s why your points are not sticking. You just want to be an apologist for racist cops and I’m not sure why.

---

Steve QJ:

“You just want to be an apologist for racist cops and I’m not sure why.”

The reason you're not sure why I want to be an apologist for racist cops is that I obviously don't want to be an apologist for racist cops. The idea is absurd. Not a single word I’ve written even hints in this direction.

But because it's the only explanation that allows you to stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala," you're stuck trying to find an explanation for that absurdity instead of considering that maybe you haven't developed an accurate understanding of the situation by scrolling Twitter and skimming the first few lines of studies.

But what if, and stay with me here, I disagree with you, not because I want racist cops to kill black people like myself, but because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t? I've spent quite a lot of time doing actual research into this issue. Whereas you, apparently, aren't even willing to read a single paper.

There's no point in trying to have a conversation with somebody who ignores facts. It's exactly as futile as arguing with Trump supporters or flat Earthers. So sure, reality itself is gaslighting. The lengths people will go to to stay in their bubbles is nothing short of depressing.

---

Rosalyn:

I've read more than one word from you that makes you sound like an apologist.

I didn't need to read your article because I've read articles on the subject before. That's why I know what I'm talking about

Do you?

Police being an extension of white supremacy, and actively targeting Black people, is not an opinion.

It's a fact.

You, or anyone, trying to suggest otherwise based on evidence and data is not being truthful, is gaslighting, and has some type of agenda...

---

Steve QJ:

"I don't need to read what you wrote to understand what you think because I've read other articles before, written by completely different people, that say what I think you might think. That's how low I set the bar with regards to knowing what I'm talking about.

And if logic, evidence and data counteracts my feelings, that's gaslighting."

Jesus Christ.😅

---

Rosalyn:

So, these articles are presenting facts and data, correct? So, what would be different in your source? Please explain.

Excuse me, that's how low I set the bar to knowing what I'm talking about? Again, explain this. Like I said, your source should have the same facts and data as the sources that I have read, as evidence and data don't change. What am I missing?

We can have a different interpretation, but when it comes to evidence and data, that would mean one of us is wrong.

Logic??? You can't be serious. You see the evidence and data but conclude that police brutality doesn't disproportionately, I mean grossly disproportionately, affect Black people? I mean, you say it's not solely a Black problem. Fine. Who's stopping white people from protesting it? What exactly is your point? You argue that police forces aren't organizations that exist, now and then, to check Black people... Your interpretation is revisionist, and it's wrong. It's not your opinion. It's wrong.

You don't think, possibly, or logically, that white people are nothing more than casualties of police brutality. Because if it's okay to do it to us, it will also be done to them. They won't be spared.

Do you think police officers would be as brutal and violent as they are, if there weren't, and were never, Black people in this country???

No they wouldn't be.

Gaslighting--a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory, or perceptions.

You are gaslighting, or you've read a lot of information that you don't understand.

---

“your source should have the same facts and data as the sources that I have read, as evidence and data don't change. What am I missing?”

Almost 100% of the time, when I revisit these conversations, I notice something in a reply that I missed the first time and wish I hadn’t. Because this really gets to the heart of the issue.

Rosalyn’s question presupposes that we’ve seen the same information. We’ve both read articles on the topic of police brutality and have therefore been exposed to the same “truths.” We’ve just interpreted them differently (and I’ve interpreted them incorrectly).

But what if our information isn’t the same? What if one or both of our datasets is flat-out wrong? Acquiring expertise on any topic means having the humility to acknowledge unknown unknowns.

---

Steve QJ:

“Gaslighting--a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory, or perceptions.”

This only defines gaslighting if the person being encouraged to question their reality has a firm grip on reality. It’s not gaslighting, for example, to point out to somebody who is delusional that they are, in fact, delusional. Even if they believe their delusions are real. Sometimes people misremember or misinterpret or get things flat-out wrong. Acknowledging this is not gaslghting.

As you say, if we have a different interpretation of facts and evidence, one (or perhaps both) of us is likely wrong. But seeing as you refused to even read the evidence I presented, it’s difficult to say how you interpret it, isn’t it?

I have no idea what you've read, obviously, so I can't explain what is different between what I've written and what somebody else has (that should be self evident, no?). But speaking of getting things flat-out wrong, I have, at absolutely no point, even suggested that police brutality doesn't disproportionately affect black people. I'm well aware that it does.

You're arguing with your own imagination. Not anything I’ve written. But presumably it's "gaslighting" for me to point this out...

---

Rosalyn:

Oh I read the article since you kept talking about it. It's biased. Clearly written to defend cops.

It's broad and general. Based on polls.

There are many articles and studies that further break down those stats. Accounting for differences based on state, precincts, neighborhoods, and crime rates, and socio-economic factors inside those neighborhoods. Inner-city people from Memphis will give you completely different data, based on a poll, than say, an all-white city in Connecticut, and that matters.

But better than that, there are studies and research that provide so much more in-depth data and stats. Based on not just asking people, but monitoring police calls, police response, police citations, police arrests, police attitudes and biases... Do police cite, arrest, brutalize more when they respond to calls in one neighborhood vs another? How about when they pull citizens over? How's their attitude and biases?

Do police self-report? All precincts don't report. People lie.

None of which will ever be 100 percent accurate, no?

I have a firm grip on reality, which is why your gaslighting is not working. Do you?

So, if you agree that police brutality disproportionately affects Black people, what is your point? Why are you an apologist for American cops?

You say white people are also affected by police brutality, but if your argument is small percentages, then the percentage of white Americans who are affected by police brutality, compared to Black and Brown people, is miniscule. Based on percentages based on population size.

So, according to your logic, that really is too small of a number to complain...

So again, what is your point???

---

Steve QJ:

“You say white people are also affected by police brutality, but if your argument is small percentages, then the percentage of white Americans who are affected by police brutality, compared to Black and Brown people, is miniscule.”

No, actually this isn't true. According to a Guardian database (admittedly from 2016 but I suspect the figures haven't changed that dramatically) Native Americans are killed by police significantly more per capita than any other demographic at 10.13 deaths per million people. But when is the last time you saw a Native American police shooting plastered all over the news? Black people are next at 6.6 deaths per million, and white people are at 2.9 deaths per million. A clear difference, but not a tiny percentage relative to the rest.

And let's be honest, if those five police officers who beat Tyre to death were white, do you think it would have faded from headlines in just a couple of days?

The media's reporting on police shootings is almost completely context free. Every time a black person is killed by police (except when they're killed by black cops, obviously) the story plays on an endless loop on TV. Because presenting it as a black/white problem generates more clicks and outrage than breaking down what's happening intelligently. Millions of people overestimate the number of black people killed by police by several orders of magnitude.

The media crafts narratives. And only if you're wiling to spend some time looking at the data do you get a somewhat clearer picture of what's really happening.

So my point is, as I've already said, most people's understanding of America's police brutality problem is wildly inaccurate. Because it's been deliberately skewed by the profit motives of the media and yes, organisation like BLM. Police brutality is a terrible problem that everybody should be concerned with fixing. It's not about black people and white and hispanic people marching for their own separate causes, it's about everybody coming together to solve a common problem instead of bickering amongst themselves about skin tone.

The more people who are on board, the better for everybody. Including black people.

How you're getting that I, or anything I've linked to, is defending cops I have no idea. I have never made a single justification or defence of police brutality. This repeated claim is the clearest example of your tenuous grip on reality regarding this topic.

---

As the old saying goes, “Knowledge is power.” But unfortunately, ignorance can be powerful too.

If you believe your ignorance is a virtue, you can disregard facts that challenge your feelings. You can dismiss the possibility that you’re wrong. You can convince yourself that everybody who is more knowledgeable than you is “gaslighting.”

Let’s be clear, we’re all guilty of this to a degree. It’s difficult to change your mind. Especially about issues that are close to your heart.

Unspeakable truths become unspeakable, in part, because some people find them threatening or “triggering” or difficult to understand. I don’t judge anybody for that. I just wish the people who can’t handle those unspeakable truths would do less speaking.