This Doesn’t Justify The Vilification Of The Penis

I try to apply two rules to my online conversations. The first is that I attack ideas rather than the people who hold them. And the second is that when I share them here, I always post the full, unedited conversation.

I broke both of those rules with Jared.

This is the first conversation that I haven’t shared in its entirety, simply because it was way too long. Even the segment I’ve posted here is very long. Our conversation branched off into numerous tangents and I’ve chosen the endpoint of one of those tangents to end this post. We talked more, but we didn’t say anything particularly enlightening (rest assured that I haven’t edited a word of the conversation I have posted here).

As for the other rule, while I’ve spoken to all kinds of people and argued against all kinds of views, I don’t think I’ve ever read any that truly disgusted me with their callousness and dishonesty. Funny how with all the arguments I’ve had about race, what finally got me triggered was a conversation about misogyny.

Anyway, in my article, Is JK Rowling Really A Transphobe?, I pointed out that despite all the controversy about JK Rowling’s “transphobic views”, Rowling is simply asking for an open, honest discussion about the ways certain trans policies might be abused by men. She’s asking that we consider the comfort of trans women and women when figuring out solutions.

Jared thought…well, see for yourself:

---

Jared:

Rowling has a terrible attitude about this whole topic. It’s plain from her comments she does not view trans women as her equals, nor as women.

Every single example provided by the author regarding men taking advantage of some loophole to assault women were bullshit. The prison related ones provided zero evidence and the stories were suspect. The other two cases weren’t even clearly about transgender women. They seemed to be about men coming into women’s bathrooms to spy. What does this have to do with transgender folks? Just the sleaziness of the examples kind of demonstrates how rare this is, and how it doesn’t involve trans women doing anything wrong. But they get the backlash.

At one point the author even talks about how women need places safe from men, yet nobody is advocating that men should be allowed in these places.

I am very empathetic to sex abuse survivors, but this also doesn’t justify the vilification of the penis. If it’s not erect and being poked in your face, you can easily ignore one even if a person is being shamelessly out there with it, as trans women aren’t known for doing. In any case you shouldn’t be looking at anyone’s crotch long enough to be intimidated. If your attacker had a mustache, and now you are reactive to all mustaches, this does not rationalize a ban on mustaches. If you’re in a locker room where genitalia may be exposed, deciding exactly which genitalia and types, shapes, and sizes of genitalia acceptable for display becomes whose responsibility again? What if another hypothetical victim was attacked by another woman? Does it follow that her reactivity to an exposed vagina in a locker room is abusive to her in a way that violates her civil rights? I don’t see it personally. People are offended by all kinds of sights. That of a set of genitalia in a locker room is among the least surprising things one could expect to see, and among a handful of places one would ever see such a thing in public. I think we can police men who go into women’s restrooms to ogle or take pictures just like we always have. It’s never been an issue (trans access) women cared about until it became a way to stick it to trans women. A ban doesn’t make them safer because the men who violate these laws already VIOLATE THESE LAWS! So couching it as a ban for trans women is cruel and vindictive, and I don’t believe women are being sincere in their protestations of fear. They may be fearful but it’s never been because of trans women. It’s because of men. I’m already not allowed in your bathrooms. Just stop pretending this is a legitimate issue with sincere fear behind it. Nobody is that gullible.

I think there are better ways to keep people safe. Like doing absolutely nothing about this nothing of an issue that was never a problem for anyone until conservatives decided they were tired of being decent people and needed a political punching bag.

---

Steve QJ:

They seemed to be about men coming into women’s bathrooms to spy. What does this have to do with transgender folks?

EXACTLY!!!!! Well...no, not exactly, there are numerous cases of women being assaulted and raped in the examples I gave. But "the author" isn't trying to make the case that transgender women are a threat. In fact, I was at great pains to point out that neither I nor Rowling think they are.

But, as she says, if you make the standard for womanhood nothing more than "I say I'm a woman," then you remove any ability whatsoever to distinguish between trans women and men who are pretending to be. This is the problem.

And do you think maybe, just maybe, Rowling’s "terrible attitude" might have something to do with the years long campaign of abuse she's endured?

Do you think, if you were a woman and were sent misogynistic slurs and death threats on a daily basis for over a year, you might develop a bit of an attitude too?

Do you think, if people refused to actually pay attention to your words, and instead disingenuously twisted everything you said to make it seem like you were saying something you weren't, you might lose faith in the possibility of a genuine, good-faith discussion about these issues that materially affect your life?

And you, a man, trying to tell women that they "can easily ignore a penis if it’s not erect", is exactly the kind of gross, entitled, misogynistic crap that makes this conversation so difficult. What the hell makes you think you have the right to tell women what they should or shouldn’t have to ignore? Why do you think we have female-only spaces in the first place?? And then you have the gall to claim that you're "very empathetic" to sexual abuse survivors?! Give me a break.

---

Jared:

What the hell makes you think you have the right to tell women what they should or shouldn’t have to ignore?

It’s the Supreme Court that gives me the right. There are all kinds of White people offended by brown skin, evidently. When they think they have the right not to be assaulted by the visuals of peers with brown skin, the law of the land says tough shit. It is not a reasonable expectation. Neither is being in locker room and expecting to never see genitalia one finds unacceptable. If seeing genitalia is that terrifying to a person, they ought to avoid locker rooms entirely. Making laws to protect this hypothetical, extreme outlier of a scenario isn’t the obvious moral choice here. You think your coddling makes you a better ally, I don’t really give a rat’s ass what you think about my concern for victims of sexual assault. You arguing against Rowling being transphobic requires such cognitive dissonance and specious argument that I can’t take you seriously.

Clearly you have a need to defend Rowling and her hyperbolic fear mongering. I don’t need her to be right to appreciate her body of work, plenty of great artists who are also kind of awful people.

You have a burden of proof issue here. You can’t demonstrate that trans women are a danger to cis women, and that is what you would need to accomplish to make your point a fair one. All of the statements you claim to be reasonable are aimed at trans women, who are not the criminals in the fantasy fear mongering speculative fiction you’re peddling.

---

Steve QJ:

When they think they have the right not to be assaulted by the visuals of peers with brown skin, the law of the land says tough shit.

Jeez, people like you love making the race/trans comparison until you're asked why it's valid to just declare that you're a woman, but you can't just declare that you're black. Then it's not okay. Right? 😏

But sure, the difference is that "white" is not a protected class. There is a very clear difference between women wanting to be separated from men in some instances (for their safety, or for their ability to compete in sport for example), and white people forcing black people to live separately, with lower standards, because of their racism.

There are good, objective reasons why women occasionally need spaces separate from men. There is no good reason why white people need spaces separate from black people. This is obvious to anybody who isn’t racist. God, you "woke" lot are so convinced you have the moral high ground, you don’t even see that your arguments are almost always dripping with racism and/or misogyny.

As for the burden of proof, I'll repeat that I have never claimed that trans women are a threat to women. So there's no need to demonstrate anything. I'm saying that the proposed re-definition of "woman" to "anybody who says they're a woman," will inevitably weaken society's ability to keep women safe from men. Not trans women, MEN. If you can't see the difference between the two, you're not very good at this whole "trans ally" thing. You're also perfectly proving Rowling's point.

This doesn't mean that trans people don't need and deserve protection too (again, primarily from men). Both Rowling and I have stated this explicitly. But society has functioned for a very long time on the basis that in certain circumstances, women, because of certain sex-based realities, get their own spaces, their own sports etc.

So if you're saying society should change in a way that makes a significant number of women feel less safe and comfortable, if you're saying that women should suddenly just "ignore penises" in spaces that were created to give them privacy, if you're saying that a man should be able to gain access to a female changing room or crisis shelter, simply by asserting that he's a woman, then the burden is on you to justify the change.

You’re right, the First Amendment protects your right to be a misogynist. It protects your right to condescend to women about lives and experiences you know nothing about. But whether you like it or not, women have rights too. And if you don't care enough to think carefully about how to protect their rights and safety as well as trans women's, don't try to convince yourself that you have anything even approaching empathy.

---

Jared:

I made the comparison in a very narrow and limited application, and did so only because it relates to a Supreme Court precedent that is directly about visual offense in public settings, and what makes for reasonable expectations. That said, it was probably not the wisest analogy I could’ve made, given the general baggage associated with comparing various forms of oppression.

My point is that it is unreasonable to presume one will not see nudity in a setting where nudity is freely permitted. Given the incredibly low instance of sexual assault occurring in any of these places, and given that men are already not permitted in them, the risk is not enough to justify banning “trans women who have penises” which is the kind of legislation this is resulting in and is the favorite justification for bigots to be cruel to unfairly marginalized people. Some women have penises. They’re not collectively a problem for anyone. I think the number of women living in fear of the sight of a penis is low enough that we can scrap any plans for mass castration. Is it misogynistic to disagree with unreasonably prudish regulation? I don’t agree that men are allowed to bare their nipples in public and women get harassed for breastfeeding. Your solution is to force men to wear shirts in public. You’re going the wrong way.

---

Steve QJ:

My point is that it is unreasonable to presume one will not see nudity in a setting where nudity is freely permitted.

Is it really possible that you're not seeing the problem with this argument? It's so hard to believe you're just not being wilfully disingenuous. Because this is just so trivially dumb.

Seeing nudity in a setting where nudity is permitted isn't the issue. The issue is that all nudity is not the same. Being a woman and being surrounded by other naked women is completely different from being a woman and being surrounded by naked men. It's just brain-dead obvious to realise this.

Women aren't objecting to seeing other naked women, they've done that for centuries. They're objecting to changes to the law, that would remove the ability to effectively give them privacy from men. Under self ID laws, what exactly prevents me from walking into a women's changing room?? This is the problem. The "incredibly low instances of sexual assault" (just what is an acceptable amount of sexual assault for you Jared?) is a result of the fact that we make significant efforts in society to keep women and men separate in certain circumstances. As soon as we erode the ability to make this distinctions the amount sexual assault inevitably goes up.

The issue isn't simply the sight of a penis (although if it were that would be fair enough), it's the presence of a man in a space where women get naked or are trying to escape abuse from men. It's the fact that (and I can't believe you don't get this), women's bodies are sexualised in ways that men's aren't, and some men are sexually predatory in ways that women aren't. It's the increased potential for rapists to attack women when they're vulnerable. Or hell, even to leer at them while they're changing. This will inevitably drive some women out of spaces that were built for them.

I have no idea what point you think you're making about nipples. I actually agree with you though. Yes, women should have exactly the same rights as men to go topless if they choose. But even if they did legally speaking, there are social and safety consequences that mean women would never take advantage of those laws to the same extent as men. Are you really so blind that you don't see this? Do you have any women in your life? Have you ever tried to consider how women's lives differ from men’s?

I'm not going any "way". It's not up to me (or you) to force women into a new social paradigm. So I'm listening to all women, women who are comfortable and women who aren't, and saying that those who aren't comfortable with changes to their rights shouldn't be forced to lose them. Because consider this; the number of women "living in fear of the penis" (again, how many women is it acceptable to make uncomfortable Jared) is greater than the number of all trans women. Women are 51% of the population. Trans women are less than 1%.

You love assuming that the number of women who object is low. The number of trans women, total, is low. Why do they not get, at the very least, an equal say? Why don't trans women have to compromise as a result of changes they've chosen to make to their bodies?

But the issue, as I've said numerous times isn't trans women. I think that the vast majority of women would be happy to accept trans women into female-only spaces if the rules to be classified as a woman couldn't be trivially taken advantage of by men. The issue, and I'm genuinely shocked to see it, is how little you give a shit about the comfort and safety of women.

---

Jared:

Why don't trans women have to compromise as a result of changes they've chosen to make to their bodies?

They compromise. All the time. Many of them get such anxiety around worrying about having to use a public restroom they stay home. You seem to think they’re playing dress up. I’m guessing you know exactly what gender you identify with, probably from an early age. It’s not anything anyone could convince you to alter, is it? It’s not about a fashion choice, it’s like a fundamental building block of identity.

It’s not that I don’t support women. I support people individually, and try to respect the causes of everyone with a gripe, but one notable exception is where these complaints are about being offended by someone’s very appearance.. I don’t support people making stupid arguments to uphold their petty bigotries.

---

Steve QJ:

I’m guessing you know exactly what gender you identify with, probably from an early age.

No. This is actually another level that I'm not even going to bother to go into. But suffice it to say that no. I don't "know what gender I identify with". I'm a man because I'm a male and an adult and that's what "man" means. I don't "feel" like a man. I don't even know what that means. What does it "feel" like to be a man? Can you describe it? Do you think another randomly chosen man would have exactly the same feeling? The entire concept is incoherent.

That doesn't mean I think trans women are faking it. I don't. But I think that it's a mistake to say that somebody who “feels like” a woman is a woman. Which is why you find yourself in the insane position where if I tell you right now, "I'm a woman," and demand to get naked in a changing room alongside women and girls, you don't have any basis at all, by your understanding of what a woman is, to refute me.

This, for the umpteenth time, is the problem. Not trans women, but the ease with which men can take advantage of this asinine, circular definition of "woman."

And this issue isn't simply about women's bathrooms. If you'd bothered to read the article, you'd know that I support trans women using women's bathrooms. I think it's by far the best solution for all concerned. However, as I've already said to someone else, there's a difference between a bathroom and a changing room and a rape crisis centre. A woman can have privacy in a bathroom that she would find more difficult in a changing room. A woman in a rape crisis centre is in a very different state of mind that in a changing room.

They are different scenarios, that exist for different purposes, and therefore may require different policies. There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution.

Trans women feel anxiety using women's bathrooms because they know that they might make women feel uncomfortable which a) shows they have more respect for the feelings of women than you do (something I’ve never doubted), and b) that they understand that there's an issue. So the question is, how do we fix that issue in a way that works for women and trans women?

What would be enormously helpful in resolving these issues is if conversations about them weren't so misogynistic and manipulative and dishonest. It would be helpful if you had a tenth of the compassion you have for women that you seem to have for trans women. Women compromise all the time too after all. It would be helpful if women weren't accused of bigotry for asking people to respect boundaries that they spent centuries fighting for.

---

Jared:

…where if I tell you right now, "I'm a woman," and demand to get naked in a changing room alongside women and girls, you don't have any basis at all, by your understanding of what a woman is, to refute me.

Well, your admission of insincerity is in writing and posted to the internet. Pretty sure I’d have a basis for rejecting you individually were you to attempt something that ridiculous.

Sure there are all kinds of things men might say about how it feels to be a man, but they will be very different from the answers women give. Trans women will give answers as cis women do,. Most of my identity as a man happens between my ears, where I experience gender as a phenomenon. It’s not in my dick, or mostly it isn’t.

---

Steve QJ:

Well, your admission of insincerity is in writing and posted to the internet.

Ah, smart! Good job that when a man claims to be a woman, everything he's ever written on the internet gets checked over thoroughly before allowing him into female-only spaces. Good job that if I ever try to walk into a women's changing room, somebody will call you up first and ask if I'm legit. Now that you say it, I'm amazed nobody else has realised it's this simple. Lying is impossible!

Okay. I’m officially done. Either you’re not using your brain at all, you’re a pervert hoping to take advantage of these laws yourself, or you're actually an idiot. Either way, this is a waste of my time.

---

I’m occasionally accused of spending too much time engaging with crackpots. And on the evidence of this exchange, it’s hard to argue. As I said at the beginning, despite my final comment here, the conversation actually continued in a different thread.

But it was really important to me to highlight some of the manipulative, poorly thought out debate tactics you see on this issue. I also wanted to see if there was any way to get through to somebody like this. Sadly, at least online, there wasn’t.

If you want to see the rest of this train wreck, let me know in the comments and I’ll post it at a later date. Alternatively, however we identify, we can comfort ourselves in the knowledge that creeps like Jared are far and away the minority. Because if I were trans, I certainly wouldn’t want him to be seen as a representative for me.