One of the big problems with the science-class is far too many are either atheist or agnostic and thus don't put as much time and attention into determining motivation. I'm currently studying how Biblical events are reflected in modern times. I recently wrote a paper on the Book of Jonah and in reponse to the question "What does these …
One of the big problems with the science-class is far too many are either atheist or agnostic and thus don't put as much time and attention into determining motivation. I'm currently studying how Biblical events are reflected in modern times. I recently wrote a paper on the Book of Jonah and in reponse to the question "What does these events tell us about todays world," I wrote the following:
---
The story of Jonah is very applicable to today’s world, and possibly one of the most relatable stories in the Bible. It is much deeper than the children’s tale of a disobedient Jonah in the belly of the fish. Nineveh is a city of uneducated people who are easily persuaded by both good and evil. God appears to have a view of the people of Nineveh equating them more as wayward children than dangerous idolators. It is likely Jonah was sent on this mission by God to teach him a lesson, rather than any actual intention to destroy Nineveh. Jonah is extremely selfish; where God sees a city of 120,000 child-like people, Jonah sees 120,000 people who are not worth risking his life for and is so afraid of them that he disobeys God and nearly brings ruin on an entire ship full of sailors in his disobedience. A telling part of the story is that we are left with a selfish Jonah being scolded by God. There is no redemption for Jonah, instead the point is that the welfare of the 120,000 citizens of Nineveh means more to God than the emotions of a man that God selected to be a prophet. Another important point is that Jonah did ultimately save the people of Nineveh because of his fear of God, reinforcing to us today that God’s will is greater than our own.
Since 2019 we have seen the inverse of this story occur with COVID-19. In November 2019, the Wuhan lab could have notified the CDC that a sample had possibly escaped, and two lab workers were hospitalized. This did not happen because the government of China demands that its citizens deny God and be devout atheists. The policy informing their decision making is purely selfish and not of God. Without God’s spirit to guide them, they acted selfishly to cover up the incident and illnesses.
An international journal about the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) summarized the policies of the CCP and references Xi Jinping’s code of morality. Telling by their complete absence are the words “religion” and “God”. (Payette, 2019)
Finally, in late December 2019, an eye doctor who had treated the first patients of December 2019 let the world know about Covid-19. The Chinese government punished the eye doctor for speaking up and trying to save lives. The Chinese government covered up the outbreak and details about the virus as long as they could and on multiple occasions has impeded investigations into the origin of the SARS-Cov-2 virus, which has dramatically hampered international response to the virus; which created a world-wide panic that led to billions of people being locked down, millions of kids from going to school, and the emotional and physical scarring of people all over the world in addition to over six million people dying.
Had China been a country of freedom of religion and allowed people to act from an attitude of Godly morality, not just the selfish needs of the Chinese Communist Party, then the COVID-19 pandemic would likely have been much reduced in scope. Even a man such as Jonah could be motivated by God to save 120,000 people who he feared, but you first must be open to God to receive his message.
China also had responsibilities under the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention which it joined in 1984. The NTWC demands members to not create or use biological technology with a dual civilian and military capability. Yet, they were cited repeatedly by the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) for such activities, including bringing attention to the lab in Wuhan in 2014 where the outbreak likely originates. (NTI, 2014) “China continued to develop its biotechnology infrastructure, pursue scientific cooperation with entities of several countries, and engage in biological activities with potential dual-use applications.” (US Department of State, 2014) This willful disregard of their responsibilities and moral obligations in the name of Human Rights underscores the how in “How did we get here?” It is a complete absence of value for human life; present because of a complete absence of God in their lives that is on display in China’s leadership.
# Refrences
Bible, American Standard Version. (1901). Retrieved from VitalSource Bookshelf: vbk://P98lDgf5EINnqSvgXyrKkXS8j2xFplT45f-1t_PqJSc
Fox, Ph.D., M. (2011). Closer Look at Jeremiah 1:10 with Implications for (Re) Reading Jeremiah 1. Fort Worth.
US Department of State. (2014, July 31). Adherence to and Compliance With Arms Control, Nonproliferation, and Disarmament Agreements and Commitments. Retrieved from US Department of State: https://2009-2017.state.gov/t/avc/rls/rpt/2014/230047.htm#china
Motivation is a matter of philosophy, rather than one of science. I am curious as to why you opine that atheists or agnostics don't consider such things? Who's motivation about what? I don't think that my STEM education suffered because it was lacking philosophical or religious content. I was and am free to study or consider such things in their proper realm.
Thank you for making my point. I doubt you read the rest of what I wrote, but I go on to explain that the Marxist agenda is explicitly anti-human-rights, and that is a conscious philosophical decision by Xi Jinping and his idol, Chairman Mao--a man who intentionally murdered 70,000,000 Chinese citizens because they backed the wrong Marxist dictator. This is an indisputable fact. Their only priority is to do what they believe is best for the Chinese Communist Party, even if that includes destroying entire populations who will not succumb to their agenda.
It's undeniable that acts of unspeakable cruelty have been carried out by people who didn't believe in God. But it's also undeniable that acts of at least equal cruelty have been carried to by people who did, no?
I think that's why Dave (and I) is struggling to understand why you say that a lack of faith in God is the key difference.
To take an especially pertinent example, the Catholic Church has, for decades, been embroiled in a pedophilia scandal that was known right up to the highest levels. They did everything they could to "selfishly cover up the incidents" and avoid consequences until it became impossible to continue hiding. Even now, there's been very little transparency about what is being done to rectify the problem.
I think the problem you're pointing to, which don't get me wrong is a very real problem, is more one of how power corrupts than of whether religion reliably makes societies or individuals more moral.
"To take an especially pertinent example, the Catholic Church has, for decades, been embroiled in a pedophilia scandal that was known right up to the highest levels."
Weak tea compared to the Crusades; lopping off children's heads with swords while singing hymns.
Or the Inquisition; unspeakably cruel tortures as punishment for doctrinal minutiae.
Yeah believing in an invisible spirit has been so good for the world.
The highest estimates for deaths during the Crusades is 9M, most believe 3M. That was over 700 years ago. the Marxists are racking up far larger tallies in the last 100 years. So far over 6M since 2019. And if you want to compare atrocities, the CCP removes the organa of political prisoners and sells the to people needing a transplant. Today, in this time.
At the time of the Crusades the global population was something like a fiftieth or a thirtieth what it is now, and the Crusaders rode on horseback for hundreds of miles. But, oh, "only 3-9 million," brutally slaughtered in the name of a preposterous belief. That would be equivalent to murdering 100-500 million today. Your dismissal of this is nothing short of monstrous.
I don't think that anyone commenting is defending the CCP. That misses the point.
Create a table of groups that have committed atrocities and/or other great evils, both conflating political ideology and religion as you have done and separating them in discrete groups. A jumbo statistical table of evil. Where would the Christian group be? How about other religions that have gods, but a different one from yours? Are they atheists if they have the wrong god?
Could you draw a line anywhere on the chart and say that one side of the line is evil and the other not? If you are a Christian, you could not because every line falls short of righteousness in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, to what end does such a ranking serve?
That is the difficulty with your premise. You wrote that the problem is with the atheists, agnostics and I would venture to guess the religions with what you might call false gods. But your believers are on that table too, and I would venture to opine that they are not the bottom line, as if that mattered from a religious (Christian?) standpoint.
This commentary is about "People wanting someone to blame" which you are doing while being absolutely convinced that their view is the correct one. I understand that revealed religions demand certainty. That is the relevance of your stated opinion to the conversation, I guess. Can you see why that gives some people pause?
The Catholic church does not represent a majority of Christians, and few countries are politically tied to it. Religions of this world basically fall into three groups, Abrahamic, Polytheistic from India, and Confusionism/Budhism. Each hold a far higher standard of value on lives (at least those of their followers). None are perfect. But a complete lack of such a moral compass is a major detriment to any society and Marxist regimes have proven this over and over again.
“The Catholic church does not represent a majority of Christians”
I mean, that’s debatable, but hopefully we can agree that they should be a prime example of people who derive their moral compass from God. And while we have to speculate about the motivation for the actions of people like Stalin and Mao, the evil carried out in the name of religion was unequivocally motivated by a belief that it was Gods will.
I’m not saying this to attack religion. Evil is a human condition, not a specifically religious one. But your claim that religion is a protection against this condition doesn’t seem to bear much scrutiny.
This information took me less than ten seconds to find. I think it safe to assume that the rest of the data you post, with its abundance of right wing tropes, is similarly accurate, and you are similarly disinterested in actual facts.
Your repeated statement that atheists lack morals is as valuable as an overflowing septic tank. Show me a believer whose faith moves him to oppose an injustice and I will show you a thousand who believe with absolute conviction that the injustice is the will of their imaginary playmate.
50.1% is no more a majority than 49.9% because there is not Christian government that they all vote in. The majority of Catholics are in poor countries with little influence in Latin America.
Based on what? What do you know about Christianity that would lead you to the conclusion that non-Papists would follow Catholic ideology or allow the Pope to speak for them? Everything that has been trotted out as condemnation of Christians is not applicable to 49.9% of Christians and mostly based on events that are from hundreds of years ago.
Who do you think was calling out the pedo priests the loudest? Every non-Catholic Christian! There's a reason that Protestants encourage Reverends to be married and have families. And in the scheme of things, far fewer children are being abused by priests than are being scarred for life by Covid-19.
I doubt this is real. I doubt it very much. Seventy million? Even with their currently obscene population that would hardly go unnoticed.
There is nothing in Marxism that is explicitly opposed to human rights, only against some of the more selfish American extensions of the idea of freedom. Your phrase "Marxist agenda" is a tell. I would bet money you have never read any actual sources, only half-educated detractors.
Wingnuts are constantly saying that Stalin murdered 100,000,000 Russians without even noting how absurd that is.
Atheism is a denial of the most broadly-held beliefs in the supernatural. Supernatural thinking has no place in science. Yes some scientists believe in gods but if they don't partition those beliefs from their work them they're not good at their work.
I have no idea what you mean by atheism thwarting motivation. Atheists have been disproportionately involved in most of society's social advances, because religious people are so flexible in using the moral immunity of their faith to justify their bigotry.
One of the big problems with the science-class is far too many are either atheist or agnostic and thus don't put as much time and attention into determining motivation. I'm currently studying how Biblical events are reflected in modern times. I recently wrote a paper on the Book of Jonah and in reponse to the question "What does these events tell us about todays world," I wrote the following:
---
The story of Jonah is very applicable to today’s world, and possibly one of the most relatable stories in the Bible. It is much deeper than the children’s tale of a disobedient Jonah in the belly of the fish. Nineveh is a city of uneducated people who are easily persuaded by both good and evil. God appears to have a view of the people of Nineveh equating them more as wayward children than dangerous idolators. It is likely Jonah was sent on this mission by God to teach him a lesson, rather than any actual intention to destroy Nineveh. Jonah is extremely selfish; where God sees a city of 120,000 child-like people, Jonah sees 120,000 people who are not worth risking his life for and is so afraid of them that he disobeys God and nearly brings ruin on an entire ship full of sailors in his disobedience. A telling part of the story is that we are left with a selfish Jonah being scolded by God. There is no redemption for Jonah, instead the point is that the welfare of the 120,000 citizens of Nineveh means more to God than the emotions of a man that God selected to be a prophet. Another important point is that Jonah did ultimately save the people of Nineveh because of his fear of God, reinforcing to us today that God’s will is greater than our own.
Since 2019 we have seen the inverse of this story occur with COVID-19. In November 2019, the Wuhan lab could have notified the CDC that a sample had possibly escaped, and two lab workers were hospitalized. This did not happen because the government of China demands that its citizens deny God and be devout atheists. The policy informing their decision making is purely selfish and not of God. Without God’s spirit to guide them, they acted selfishly to cover up the incident and illnesses.
An international journal about the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) summarized the policies of the CCP and references Xi Jinping’s code of morality. Telling by their complete absence are the words “religion” and “God”. (Payette, 2019)
Finally, in late December 2019, an eye doctor who had treated the first patients of December 2019 let the world know about Covid-19. The Chinese government punished the eye doctor for speaking up and trying to save lives. The Chinese government covered up the outbreak and details about the virus as long as they could and on multiple occasions has impeded investigations into the origin of the SARS-Cov-2 virus, which has dramatically hampered international response to the virus; which created a world-wide panic that led to billions of people being locked down, millions of kids from going to school, and the emotional and physical scarring of people all over the world in addition to over six million people dying.
Had China been a country of freedom of religion and allowed people to act from an attitude of Godly morality, not just the selfish needs of the Chinese Communist Party, then the COVID-19 pandemic would likely have been much reduced in scope. Even a man such as Jonah could be motivated by God to save 120,000 people who he feared, but you first must be open to God to receive his message.
China also had responsibilities under the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention which it joined in 1984. The NTWC demands members to not create or use biological technology with a dual civilian and military capability. Yet, they were cited repeatedly by the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) for such activities, including bringing attention to the lab in Wuhan in 2014 where the outbreak likely originates. (NTI, 2014) “China continued to develop its biotechnology infrastructure, pursue scientific cooperation with entities of several countries, and engage in biological activities with potential dual-use applications.” (US Department of State, 2014) This willful disregard of their responsibilities and moral obligations in the name of Human Rights underscores the how in “How did we get here?” It is a complete absence of value for human life; present because of a complete absence of God in their lives that is on display in China’s leadership.
# Refrences
Bible, American Standard Version. (1901). Retrieved from VitalSource Bookshelf: vbk://P98lDgf5EINnqSvgXyrKkXS8j2xFplT45f-1t_PqJSc
Fox, Ph.D., M. (2011). Closer Look at Jeremiah 1:10 with Implications for (Re) Reading Jeremiah 1. Fort Worth.
NTI. (2014, November 3). China Biological Overview. Retrieved from Nuclear Threat Initiative: https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/china-biological/
Payette, A. (2019, December). Reviewing the Fourth Plenum: Governance and Morality in the Era of Xi Jinping. Contemporary Chinese Political Economy and Strategic Relations: An International Journal, 5(3), 949-962. Retrieved from https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/61640339/CCPS53-Payette20191230-120988-17tzf8l-libre.pdf?1577735146=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DReviewing_the_Fourth_Plenum_Governance.pdf&Expires=1656794892&Signature=J3G02XKeEDMI3pHIlkRfmj~6yx
US Department of State. (2014, July 31). Adherence to and Compliance With Arms Control, Nonproliferation, and Disarmament Agreements and Commitments. Retrieved from US Department of State: https://2009-2017.state.gov/t/avc/rls/rpt/2014/230047.htm#china
"𝘖𝘯𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘣𝘪𝘨 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘣𝘭𝘦𝘮𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘤𝘪𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘦-𝘤𝘭𝘢𝘴𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘢𝘳 𝘵𝘰𝘰 𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘦𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘢𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘴𝘵 𝘰𝘳 𝘢𝘨𝘯𝘰𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘤 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘶𝘴 𝘥𝘰𝘯'𝘵 𝘱𝘶𝘵 𝘢𝘴 𝘮𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘵𝘪𝘮𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘦𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘮𝘰𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯."
Motivation is a matter of philosophy, rather than one of science. I am curious as to why you opine that atheists or agnostics don't consider such things? Who's motivation about what? I don't think that my STEM education suffered because it was lacking philosophical or religious content. I was and am free to study or consider such things in their proper realm.
Thank you for making my point. I doubt you read the rest of what I wrote, but I go on to explain that the Marxist agenda is explicitly anti-human-rights, and that is a conscious philosophical decision by Xi Jinping and his idol, Chairman Mao--a man who intentionally murdered 70,000,000 Chinese citizens because they backed the wrong Marxist dictator. This is an indisputable fact. Their only priority is to do what they believe is best for the Chinese Communist Party, even if that includes destroying entire populations who will not succumb to their agenda.
It's undeniable that acts of unspeakable cruelty have been carried out by people who didn't believe in God. But it's also undeniable that acts of at least equal cruelty have been carried to by people who did, no?
I think that's why Dave (and I) is struggling to understand why you say that a lack of faith in God is the key difference.
To take an especially pertinent example, the Catholic Church has, for decades, been embroiled in a pedophilia scandal that was known right up to the highest levels. They did everything they could to "selfishly cover up the incidents" and avoid consequences until it became impossible to continue hiding. Even now, there's been very little transparency about what is being done to rectify the problem.
I think the problem you're pointing to, which don't get me wrong is a very real problem, is more one of how power corrupts than of whether religion reliably makes societies or individuals more moral.
"To take an especially pertinent example, the Catholic Church has, for decades, been embroiled in a pedophilia scandal that was known right up to the highest levels."
Weak tea compared to the Crusades; lopping off children's heads with swords while singing hymns.
Or the Inquisition; unspeakably cruel tortures as punishment for doctrinal minutiae.
Yeah believing in an invisible spirit has been so good for the world.
The highest estimates for deaths during the Crusades is 9M, most believe 3M. That was over 700 years ago. the Marxists are racking up far larger tallies in the last 100 years. So far over 6M since 2019. And if you want to compare atrocities, the CCP removes the organa of political prisoners and sells the to people needing a transplant. Today, in this time.
Marxist agenda, Marxist regimes, Marxist atrocities. And believing in God guarantees morality.
Keep up with current events? Six Catholics just guaranteed the deaths of many thousands of women and the birth of many deformed children.
No, I’m not interested in comparing atrocities. I believe that republicans will do the exact same thing given the chance.
I don’t know where you read this stuff but I think your notion that Marxism is the root of all evil is simpleminded.
At the time of the Crusades the global population was something like a fiftieth or a thirtieth what it is now, and the Crusaders rode on horseback for hundreds of miles. But, oh, "only 3-9 million," brutally slaughtered in the name of a preposterous belief. That would be equivalent to murdering 100-500 million today. Your dismissal of this is nothing short of monstrous.
I don't think that anyone commenting is defending the CCP. That misses the point.
Create a table of groups that have committed atrocities and/or other great evils, both conflating political ideology and religion as you have done and separating them in discrete groups. A jumbo statistical table of evil. Where would the Christian group be? How about other religions that have gods, but a different one from yours? Are they atheists if they have the wrong god?
Could you draw a line anywhere on the chart and say that one side of the line is evil and the other not? If you are a Christian, you could not because every line falls short of righteousness in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, to what end does such a ranking serve?
That is the difficulty with your premise. You wrote that the problem is with the atheists, agnostics and I would venture to guess the religions with what you might call false gods. But your believers are on that table too, and I would venture to opine that they are not the bottom line, as if that mattered from a religious (Christian?) standpoint.
This commentary is about "People wanting someone to blame" which you are doing while being absolutely convinced that their view is the correct one. I understand that revealed religions demand certainty. That is the relevance of your stated opinion to the conversation, I guess. Can you see why that gives some people pause?
https://youtu.be/5y2FuDY6Q4M
The oldest Dylan is the best Dylan
The Catholic church does not represent a majority of Christians, and few countries are politically tied to it. Religions of this world basically fall into three groups, Abrahamic, Polytheistic from India, and Confusionism/Budhism. Each hold a far higher standard of value on lives (at least those of their followers). None are perfect. But a complete lack of such a moral compass is a major detriment to any society and Marxist regimes have proven this over and over again.
“The Catholic church does not represent a majority of Christians”
I mean, that’s debatable, but hopefully we can agree that they should be a prime example of people who derive their moral compass from God. And while we have to speculate about the motivation for the actions of people like Stalin and Mao, the evil carried out in the name of religion was unequivocally motivated by a belief that it was Gods will.
I’m not saying this to attack religion. Evil is a human condition, not a specifically religious one. But your claim that religion is a protection against this condition doesn’t seem to bear much scrutiny.
"The Catholic church does not represent a majority of Christians"
In a stunning and wholly unexpected turn of events, you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
Catholics: 50.1%
Protestants: 36.7%
This information took me less than ten seconds to find. I think it safe to assume that the rest of the data you post, with its abundance of right wing tropes, is similarly accurate, and you are similarly disinterested in actual facts.
Your repeated statement that atheists lack morals is as valuable as an overflowing septic tank. Show me a believer whose faith moves him to oppose an injustice and I will show you a thousand who believe with absolute conviction that the injustice is the will of their imaginary playmate.
50.1% is no more a majority than 49.9% because there is not Christian government that they all vote in. The majority of Catholics are in poor countries with little influence in Latin America.
I have a cockatoo who makes more sense than you
Based on what? What do you know about Christianity that would lead you to the conclusion that non-Papists would follow Catholic ideology or allow the Pope to speak for them? Everything that has been trotted out as condemnation of Christians is not applicable to 49.9% of Christians and mostly based on events that are from hundreds of years ago.
Yes like the aggressive protection of pedophile priests. Centuries ago. Siding against gays and lesbians in social policy. Far in the past.
Do just go away.
As for what I know about Christianity… bring it. Let’s start with the Valentian Heresy, Iranaeus, Origen and Tertullian. Anytime, Anywhere.
Who do you think was calling out the pedo priests the loudest? Every non-Catholic Christian! There's a reason that Protestants encourage Reverends to be married and have families. And in the scheme of things, far fewer children are being abused by priests than are being scarred for life by Covid-19.
Yeah Denmark is a slaughterhouse, right?
"Thank you for making my point. "
He didn't make your point, he clearly and effectively contradicted you. This unsubstantiated claim of triumph is one of the earmarks of a troll.
I doubt this is real. I doubt it very much. Seventy million? Even with their currently obscene population that would hardly go unnoticed.
There is nothing in Marxism that is explicitly opposed to human rights, only against some of the more selfish American extensions of the idea of freedom. Your phrase "Marxist agenda" is a tell. I would bet money you have never read any actual sources, only half-educated detractors.
Wingnuts are constantly saying that Stalin murdered 100,000,000 Russians without even noting how absurd that is.
What point of yours do you think I made?
Atheism is a denial of the most broadly-held beliefs in the supernatural. Supernatural thinking has no place in science. Yes some scientists believe in gods but if they don't partition those beliefs from their work them they're not good at their work.
I have no idea what you mean by atheism thwarting motivation. Atheists have been disproportionately involved in most of society's social advances, because religious people are so flexible in using the moral immunity of their faith to justify their bigotry.
You clearly know absolutely nothing about religion in this part of the world.
Nothing at all.