Steve “We vastly overestimate the likelihood of racial prejudice and underestimate social, economic and mental health factors that are more relevant.”
I don’t think the issue is whether Penny was justified. He clearly was not in using a potentially lethal chokehold. It was reckless. Ergo involuntary manslaughter charges justified, but not…
Steve “We vastly overestimate the likelihood of racial prejudice and underestimate social, economic and mental health factors that are more relevant.”
I don’t think the issue is whether Penny was justified. He clearly was not in using a potentially lethal chokehold. It was reckless. Ergo involuntary manslaughter charges justified, but not murder.
The issue is turning the issue into a racial one when there is no evidence that it played a role other than the raw identity of Penny and Neely. When people do that they just can’t see straight and are blinded to what really matters. The left turns Penny into a murderer and the right turns him into a victim.
"The issue is turning the issue into a racial one when there is no evidence that it played a role other than the raw identity of Penny and Neely."
Yeah, I think one leads to the other. People don't think (or even try to think) about the realities and the stressors of that situation. They imagine that if they were in that situation, they'd have handled everything with perfect equanimity.
And that makes it easier to presume that because Penny *didn't* handle the situation perfectly he must have been motivated by racism.
I'm going to disagree with you on that. I am less inclined to call it reckless than you. The carotid hold was used for years as a more humane method of subduing someone than a beatdown. The police quit using it because of the "why don't you just..." from people who think they should be able to subdue a chimpanzee. In the Marine Corps that choke was a part of our training, and we used it on each other. True, the training was about killing people, but we trained it without killing each other.
I'm going to plead ignorance here. But I don't need the expertise because I am not the decision-maker. Neither is the NYC DA. The only question before the DA was probable cause, and the existence of a prima facie case. And even that will get tested either before a grand jury or in a preliminary hearing.
Penny will get a trial. And he will get a defense where all these points will be made. The right wing has provided him with a multimillion-dollar defense fund, so he will get the best experts money can buy to make the points you just made. A jury will decide who is right.
But I stand by the charging decision. The guy is dead, Dave. And he knew that these chokeholds can be lethal.
Steve “We vastly overestimate the likelihood of racial prejudice and underestimate social, economic and mental health factors that are more relevant.”
I don’t think the issue is whether Penny was justified. He clearly was not in using a potentially lethal chokehold. It was reckless. Ergo involuntary manslaughter charges justified, but not murder.
The issue is turning the issue into a racial one when there is no evidence that it played a role other than the raw identity of Penny and Neely. When people do that they just can’t see straight and are blinded to what really matters. The left turns Penny into a murderer and the right turns him into a victim.
Here we go again.
"The issue is turning the issue into a racial one when there is no evidence that it played a role other than the raw identity of Penny and Neely."
Yeah, I think one leads to the other. People don't think (or even try to think) about the realities and the stressors of that situation. They imagine that if they were in that situation, they'd have handled everything with perfect equanimity.
And that makes it easier to presume that because Penny *didn't* handle the situation perfectly he must have been motivated by racism.
"𝘐 𝘥𝘰𝘯’𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘬 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘶𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘗𝘦𝘯𝘯𝘺 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘫𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘧𝘪𝘦𝘥. 𝘏𝘦 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘭𝘺 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘪𝘯 𝘶𝘴𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢 𝘱𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 𝘭𝘦𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘩𝘰𝘬𝘦𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘥. 𝘐𝘵 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘤𝘬𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴."
I'm going to disagree with you on that. I am less inclined to call it reckless than you. The carotid hold was used for years as a more humane method of subduing someone than a beatdown. The police quit using it because of the "why don't you just..." from people who think they should be able to subdue a chimpanzee. In the Marine Corps that choke was a part of our training, and we used it on each other. True, the training was about killing people, but we trained it without killing each other.
I'm going to plead ignorance here. But I don't need the expertise because I am not the decision-maker. Neither is the NYC DA. The only question before the DA was probable cause, and the existence of a prima facie case. And even that will get tested either before a grand jury or in a preliminary hearing.
Penny will get a trial. And he will get a defense where all these points will be made. The right wing has provided him with a multimillion-dollar defense fund, so he will get the best experts money can buy to make the points you just made. A jury will decide who is right.
But I stand by the charging decision. The guy is dead, Dave. And he knew that these chokeholds can be lethal.
I'm not trying to argue the case, just the word reckless.
Thankfully, the issue of guilt or innocence is not up to the blogosphere.....for now.
We can be grateful, at least, that NYC prosecutors with their second degree manslaughter charges, got it about right.