I've been around drag queens for much of my adult life, especially as a doorman-bouncer at a drag bar called the Brass Rail in San Diego, mid-90s. I've had very different experiences from you because they are mostly positive experiences. I really enjoyed the people there, very warm and amiable. They were for the most part a male communit…
I've been around drag queens for much of my adult life, especially as a doorman-bouncer at a drag bar called the Brass Rail in San Diego, mid-90s. I've had very different experiences from you because they are mostly positive experiences. I really enjoyed the people there, very warm and amiable. They were for the most part a male community, outside of their time in drag while at the bar. Was happy to call them "she" when they adopted their female personas, dressed up and at the bar. But the things is, for the most part that was a kind of performance (or sometimes literal performance on stage). Outside of the Brass Rail, these folks were usually men. And they usually saw themselves as such, when they were not in drag. Much like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence here in SF (well, at least the sisters I know).
To me at least, a person who is truly "trans" is a person who wants to be seen as not the biological sex that they were born in, and they want to be accepted as such 100% of the time, ideally forever. That's a hard path for many, thus my irritation with current fads that feel to me diminishing of genuinely trans individuals. I mean, even the drag queens back then often scorned actual trans women who had surgery, or were on the path to surgery. I recall a lot of transphobia from gay men back then. Fortunately, I think that has changed since the 2+ decades since.
And now after writing all that out, I wonder if we are just old & out of touch. I mean, sounds like you're a boomer and I'm gen x. You seem to have boomer anger towards changing sociopolitical modes while I have gen x apathy/irritation with new things that I deem faddish. Perhaps we both could be more flexible. Except I don't want to be lol. I already consider myself pretty flexible!
No I can adapt to authentic "changing sociopolitical modes" but I have detested fads since I was a freshman in high school. My own coming out was relatively painless, it didn't make me depressed much less suicidal. I can accept that people now pronounce the first c in Arctic but I will never accept the singular they, "reach out" or "moving forward."
I work in software and the industry is so riddled with destructive fads that all the joy I used to experienced has left it. Agile, scrum, test-driven development.
And having grown up taking every opportunity to draw attention to my intelligence as compensation for a severe stutter, it's no surprise that I am especially sensitive to attention-seeking behavior in others, and attention-seeking is all I see in most of this gender controversy and in 100.00% of the nonbinary horseshit. The stutter is largely gone and I have suppressed the attention-seeking boastfuless but I still react to people who always turn the conversation to themselves.
What I am reporting about Norfolk drag queens in 1974 is honest, in fact I was warned many times about them by other gay men. And, yes, some of them were charming, funny,. though the whole camp thing got old fast.
Well I'm just going to keep talking since I'm up and watching only barely-interesting anime. Also insomnia + whiskey. So hey Chris! I can be a talkative sort.
Coming out for me was also very much a painless and angst-free experience. Possibly because I had a girlfriend at the time in early high school, plus it was the 80s and folks thought it was just one more quirky thing I was adding to the repertoire. I also come across as a standard straight guy (unfortunately). And so while I really feel for the gays & lesbians who have felt shunned by their families, it is coming more from a place of sympathy than empathy. I have never felt the world is against me, I have never had to code-switch or otherwise be anything other than who I am. This is probably what has helped with self-confidence & self-esteem. Not a lot of insecurities over here and probably too much ego.
What do you mean when you say you'll never accept "reach out" or "moving forward"? You saying that you won't adapt by reaching out or continually moving forward? Not trying to mess with you, just totally mystified by that comment.
Your experiences are definitely not mine when it comes to "nonbinary" identities. The three colleagues I know who identify as such are just about the opposite of toxic personalities and definitely not attention-seekers. One of them is a decent Gen X-er lol but the other two are infernal Millennials. They literally do not seek attention and they've moved from "he" to "they" because it just felt more real to them. All of them have had top surgery but I don't think anything else, and could easily be mistaken for either a rather boyish man or a very, very tomboyish woman... if that's not a nonbinary gender, I don't know what is. They don't get in anyone's face about their pronouns, they just let you know it's "they" if asked. They are reasonable and don't push anything, including introducing pronouns at the start of meetings or any such ridiculous performative bullshit. I have no idea what they've had to deal with mentally or emotionally so I just make a point of referring to them as they because that's how they see themselves. Took some practice but it was worth it to me because these are three down-to-earth people that I can relate to due to their lack of drama and sardonic way of looking at the world.
I'm in a leadership position at a social services nonprofit in SF so believe me when I say I've come across plenty of dipshits over the years, but especially now, who love to get performative, angry for no good reason, adopt new identities to fit current faddish norms, etc etc fucking etc. The three non-binary folks that I know are real as hell and they are not interested in causing controversy or scenes that are all about them or about making some obscure political point. They are who they are and they are who they are in a low-key, non-attention seeking way. I respect the hell out of people like that.
You react to people who are turning the conversations to themselves and that's just what I did. Sorry! But honestly it's rare that I'm in the mood to even discuss these things so thought I'd take the opportunity. All thanks to the open space that Steve has created.
I'll have to take your word for it. Again, I am seeing an unrepresentative cross-section since I only run into them online. "Nonbinary" wasn't a fad when I left and if it had been I would have had no contact. I have had nothing to do with gay public territories since 1996. I used to be active in gay politics but I got disgusted with separatists who wanted to cling to the enclave life and who regarded marriage as a "str8" institution.
I don't have a single positive impression of the pronoun people. Not a single one.
Clarification: "reach out" is part of that Toxic Positivity corpspeak, synonym for "email" or "contact" and the phony warmth makes me want to puke. "Move forward" is TPC for "henceforth" or "from now on" or "proceed."
BTW I am not super comfortable hijacking Steve's forum for what is becoming a personal chat (so far we're keeping it at least a little germane) but it'd be courteous to other readers to take it private,
I've been around drag queens for much of my adult life, especially as a doorman-bouncer at a drag bar called the Brass Rail in San Diego, mid-90s. I've had very different experiences from you because they are mostly positive experiences. I really enjoyed the people there, very warm and amiable. They were for the most part a male community, outside of their time in drag while at the bar. Was happy to call them "she" when they adopted their female personas, dressed up and at the bar. But the things is, for the most part that was a kind of performance (or sometimes literal performance on stage). Outside of the Brass Rail, these folks were usually men. And they usually saw themselves as such, when they were not in drag. Much like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence here in SF (well, at least the sisters I know).
To me at least, a person who is truly "trans" is a person who wants to be seen as not the biological sex that they were born in, and they want to be accepted as such 100% of the time, ideally forever. That's a hard path for many, thus my irritation with current fads that feel to me diminishing of genuinely trans individuals. I mean, even the drag queens back then often scorned actual trans women who had surgery, or were on the path to surgery. I recall a lot of transphobia from gay men back then. Fortunately, I think that has changed since the 2+ decades since.
And now after writing all that out, I wonder if we are just old & out of touch. I mean, sounds like you're a boomer and I'm gen x. You seem to have boomer anger towards changing sociopolitical modes while I have gen x apathy/irritation with new things that I deem faddish. Perhaps we both could be more flexible. Except I don't want to be lol. I already consider myself pretty flexible!
No I can adapt to authentic "changing sociopolitical modes" but I have detested fads since I was a freshman in high school. My own coming out was relatively painless, it didn't make me depressed much less suicidal. I can accept that people now pronounce the first c in Arctic but I will never accept the singular they, "reach out" or "moving forward."
I work in software and the industry is so riddled with destructive fads that all the joy I used to experienced has left it. Agile, scrum, test-driven development.
And having grown up taking every opportunity to draw attention to my intelligence as compensation for a severe stutter, it's no surprise that I am especially sensitive to attention-seeking behavior in others, and attention-seeking is all I see in most of this gender controversy and in 100.00% of the nonbinary horseshit. The stutter is largely gone and I have suppressed the attention-seeking boastfuless but I still react to people who always turn the conversation to themselves.
What I am reporting about Norfolk drag queens in 1974 is honest, in fact I was warned many times about them by other gay men. And, yes, some of them were charming, funny,. though the whole camp thing got old fast.
Well I'm just going to keep talking since I'm up and watching only barely-interesting anime. Also insomnia + whiskey. So hey Chris! I can be a talkative sort.
Coming out for me was also very much a painless and angst-free experience. Possibly because I had a girlfriend at the time in early high school, plus it was the 80s and folks thought it was just one more quirky thing I was adding to the repertoire. I also come across as a standard straight guy (unfortunately). And so while I really feel for the gays & lesbians who have felt shunned by their families, it is coming more from a place of sympathy than empathy. I have never felt the world is against me, I have never had to code-switch or otherwise be anything other than who I am. This is probably what has helped with self-confidence & self-esteem. Not a lot of insecurities over here and probably too much ego.
What do you mean when you say you'll never accept "reach out" or "moving forward"? You saying that you won't adapt by reaching out or continually moving forward? Not trying to mess with you, just totally mystified by that comment.
Your experiences are definitely not mine when it comes to "nonbinary" identities. The three colleagues I know who identify as such are just about the opposite of toxic personalities and definitely not attention-seekers. One of them is a decent Gen X-er lol but the other two are infernal Millennials. They literally do not seek attention and they've moved from "he" to "they" because it just felt more real to them. All of them have had top surgery but I don't think anything else, and could easily be mistaken for either a rather boyish man or a very, very tomboyish woman... if that's not a nonbinary gender, I don't know what is. They don't get in anyone's face about their pronouns, they just let you know it's "they" if asked. They are reasonable and don't push anything, including introducing pronouns at the start of meetings or any such ridiculous performative bullshit. I have no idea what they've had to deal with mentally or emotionally so I just make a point of referring to them as they because that's how they see themselves. Took some practice but it was worth it to me because these are three down-to-earth people that I can relate to due to their lack of drama and sardonic way of looking at the world.
I'm in a leadership position at a social services nonprofit in SF so believe me when I say I've come across plenty of dipshits over the years, but especially now, who love to get performative, angry for no good reason, adopt new identities to fit current faddish norms, etc etc fucking etc. The three non-binary folks that I know are real as hell and they are not interested in causing controversy or scenes that are all about them or about making some obscure political point. They are who they are and they are who they are in a low-key, non-attention seeking way. I respect the hell out of people like that.
You react to people who are turning the conversations to themselves and that's just what I did. Sorry! But honestly it's rare that I'm in the mood to even discuss these things so thought I'd take the opportunity. All thanks to the open space that Steve has created.
I'll have to take your word for it. Again, I am seeing an unrepresentative cross-section since I only run into them online. "Nonbinary" wasn't a fad when I left and if it had been I would have had no contact. I have had nothing to do with gay public territories since 1996. I used to be active in gay politics but I got disgusted with separatists who wanted to cling to the enclave life and who regarded marriage as a "str8" institution.
I don't have a single positive impression of the pronoun people. Not a single one.
Clarification: "reach out" is part of that Toxic Positivity corpspeak, synonym for "email" or "contact" and the phony warmth makes me want to puke. "Move forward" is TPC for "henceforth" or "from now on" or "proceed."
BTW I am not super comfortable hijacking Steve's forum for what is becoming a personal chat (so far we're keeping it at least a little germane) but it'd be courteous to other readers to take it private,
cheopys@gmail.com