I think the real pain and dysfunction occurs when social pressures enforce socially constructed boxes, complete with rewards and penalties. If people could be free to enjoy who they are and who other people are, without having to worry about being socially judged as being worthy or unworthy, good or bad, there would be no need to persev…
I think the real pain and dysfunction occurs when social pressures enforce socially constructed boxes, complete with rewards and penalties. If people could be free to enjoy who they are and who other people are, without having to worry about being socially judged as being worthy or unworthy, good or bad, there would be no need to perseverate on "identity".
I just reread your last paragraph, which I had not fully digested. I think we largely agree. Identity isn't the problem; social pressure is. Yet we are social animals; survival of the individual is dependent on being in a supportive group of people who find your expressed identity congruent or complementary with theirs. So we have in-groups and out-groups. Competition between groups. Wars. How do we freely express who we are while trying to function within judgmental groups?
What's the cross between an elephant and rhinocerous? "El-iph-i-no". Gods, we are a perverse species!
"survival of the individual is dependent on being in a supportive group of people who find your expressed identity congruent or complementary with theirs. So we have in-groups and out-groups"
Yeah, this is true. But I'm not sure this survival instinct was ever predicated on "identity." When we lived in tribes, what mattered was our *behaviour*, no? We helped each other. We made ourselves useful to the group. We lived out our tribal affiliation through action.
I think one of the reasons these tribes have become so toxic is that today, they're based purely on performance and labels. There's no substance. People don't really look out for each other, in fact, they turn on each other as soon as they say the wrong thing. Or even the right thing with the wrong degree of enthusiasm.
I truly feel sorry for the people trapped in these bubbles.
"But I'm not sure this survival instinct was ever predicated on "identity.""
Yet "identity" may well be predicated on survival drives. Depending on the location, disapproval of one's behavior by the tribe could be met by ostracization, which would be tantamount to a death sentence. Though sometimes eccentric behavior was seen as special by the community, such as with "two spirit" people.
I wonder what determined the behavior of two tribes meeting for the first time, which could result in co-mingling, war, or mutual avoidance.
Regardless, survival instinct which could be seen as a form of pragmatism, would direct individuals to be congruent with others of their tribe. "Identity" could be the result of trying to the tension between individualist and communal mores. Social animals tend not to do well outside of socially cohesive groups. An exception to this might be humans making a hermit into a special category of human benefitting the tribe with magic or wisdom. They would be fed even though they might not hunt or gather.
Oh shoot, we are getting close to the territory of "nature vs. nurture" territory when we talk about instincts in humans; that is a rabbit hole I would like to avoid for now. The question of "identity" requires enough cogitation. ;-)
(I agree with Steve's assumption that current modern tribes, as differentiated from old-school tribes where cooperation was crucial to survival, have often become toxic in their superficiality.)
I think the real pain and dysfunction occurs when social pressures enforce socially constructed boxes, complete with rewards and penalties. If people could be free to enjoy who they are and who other people are, without having to worry about being socially judged as being worthy or unworthy, good or bad, there would be no need to perseverate on "identity".
I just reread your last paragraph, which I had not fully digested. I think we largely agree. Identity isn't the problem; social pressure is. Yet we are social animals; survival of the individual is dependent on being in a supportive group of people who find your expressed identity congruent or complementary with theirs. So we have in-groups and out-groups. Competition between groups. Wars. How do we freely express who we are while trying to function within judgmental groups?
What's the cross between an elephant and rhinocerous? "El-iph-i-no". Gods, we are a perverse species!
"survival of the individual is dependent on being in a supportive group of people who find your expressed identity congruent or complementary with theirs. So we have in-groups and out-groups"
Yeah, this is true. But I'm not sure this survival instinct was ever predicated on "identity." When we lived in tribes, what mattered was our *behaviour*, no? We helped each other. We made ourselves useful to the group. We lived out our tribal affiliation through action.
I think one of the reasons these tribes have become so toxic is that today, they're based purely on performance and labels. There's no substance. People don't really look out for each other, in fact, they turn on each other as soon as they say the wrong thing. Or even the right thing with the wrong degree of enthusiasm.
I truly feel sorry for the people trapped in these bubbles.
"But I'm not sure this survival instinct was ever predicated on "identity.""
Yet "identity" may well be predicated on survival drives. Depending on the location, disapproval of one's behavior by the tribe could be met by ostracization, which would be tantamount to a death sentence. Though sometimes eccentric behavior was seen as special by the community, such as with "two spirit" people.
I wonder what determined the behavior of two tribes meeting for the first time, which could result in co-mingling, war, or mutual avoidance.
Regardless, survival instinct which could be seen as a form of pragmatism, would direct individuals to be congruent with others of their tribe. "Identity" could be the result of trying to the tension between individualist and communal mores. Social animals tend not to do well outside of socially cohesive groups. An exception to this might be humans making a hermit into a special category of human benefitting the tribe with magic or wisdom. They would be fed even though they might not hunt or gather.
Oh shoot, we are getting close to the territory of "nature vs. nurture" territory when we talk about instincts in humans; that is a rabbit hole I would like to avoid for now. The question of "identity" requires enough cogitation. ;-)
(I agree with Steve's assumption that current modern tribes, as differentiated from old-school tribes where cooperation was crucial to survival, have often become toxic in their superficiality.)