Steve, I'm noticing that you are having an increasingly difficult time treading lightly in the face of absurdity. I understand it, but you know...
Years ago, driving from Sedona to Phoenix we stopped at Sunset Point to use the WC. When my sister came back to the vehicle, she said that as she entered the lady's room there was a very Butch …
Steve, I'm noticing that you are having an increasingly difficult time treading lightly in the face of absurdity. I understand it, but you know...
Years ago, driving from Sedona to Phoenix we stopped at Sunset Point to use the WC. When my sister came back to the vehicle, she said that as she entered the lady's room there was a very Butch lady there and she loudly said, "Oh my God!", thinking that she had entered the men's room. AWKWARD! It was clear that the other lady knew what that was about, but I have no doubt that they both thought that they both belonged in the lady's room.
I understand that it's a painful dilemma for transexuals. Before I retired there was a big stink in our main facility because the women didn't want a trans-woman in their restroom. I don't know how it was resolved. The lady's room does not have urinals, there would be no meat peeping or flashing. They had individual stalls with private thrones. I would think that since it wasn't the shower room at the gym that privacy could exist, and it could have been resolved with the trans-lady using the lady's room but I'm not a woman so it's not up to me. It's not like the trans-woman would want to risk being fired and worse for an impropriety.
While I've stood at a urinal next to a kathoey in Thailand, even though he was spectacularly passing until there we stood, he was not transexual. A transitioning, live as a woman, transexual would probably prefer a stall to an unabashed hiked skirt at a urinal.
The theme throughout what I've just written is honesty. That seems to be the impasse with Rob.
"Steve, I'm noticing that you are having an increasingly difficult time treading lightly in the face of absurdity. I understand it, but you know."
😁Well spotted! I was, for unrelated reasons, in a particularly grumpy mood when I had this conversation. I noticed that I was more antagonistic than usual as I revisitied it. But yeah, I must admit, it's also just hard being civil with people who are so outright dishonest. As you say, honesty is the impasse. And dishonesty is one of the few thngs thatmakes me angry.
People like Rob (who aren't even transgender) are making matters worse for *everybody*. Trans people, women, anybody who has even the slightest degree of intellectual honesty. Every time they trot out these ridiculous arguments, they push more people away from any semblance of support for trans people.
I honestly wish we could arrive at a world where trans women could stand at a urinal with their skirt hiked up unabashed. I very strongly suspect we won't. the dishonesty of trans people demanding to be seen as something they're not, while it doesn't usually make me angry, does make me sad.
Trans women are male. Without surgery, they have penises. That makes them different to females and therefore inelligble to be treated identically to them. It also means the violence they might face in male spaces is not a female problem. As you say, if women decide to accomodate trans women un some spaces, great. It's the demands that I find so hard to stomach.
1) the extent to which people who should know better have bought into this stuff. People with graduate degrees who will state "a trans woman is a woman" even if the conversion is mere minutes old
2) the extremity. Even the most supportive people who disagree on one tiny point are indistinguishable from people who say they should all be shot. When you repeated that "a trans woman is a man" Rob immediately went back to that tired-ass "transphobic" shit.
3) the fakes. This is a ploy for a lot of people to get an extra scoop of special attention. I can understand the dysphoric being ten times what medical statistics proclaim, but not a hundred times and certainly not the thousand we are getting now. It's a fad.
4) the damage. The activists don't give a goddamn about women, about children, about sexual minorities, they are not helping anyone and they do a lot of harm. A lot of teenagers are going to live out their later lives without pieces they were born with or with permanent endocrine disorders from puberty blockers and worse. And they don't care.
Edit: I enjoy seeing your exasperation at people like Rob. I really feel like sometimes your equanimity toward plain old liars edges into role-playing and that "god damn asinine" response gave me a smile.
True, but I don’t think chromosomes are really the issue here. If the definition of a trans woman was somebody who has had gender reassignment surgery, I think I’d make the case for them to be treated as women in all cases except sport.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t see the argument for excluding trans women from women’s spaces if they’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, no longer have a penis, and are living “as women.” Their chromosomes don’t seem very important at that point.
I didn't say anything about bathrooms or other uh spaces. I was talking about biological definition and nothing more.
A man who has been through surgical transition and presents as female in every way would be out of place in a men's bathroom and by that stage there is no reason for him to be in one.
And it's never been the genuinely dysphoric I have a problem with. It's the other 99% who claim "trans" just for attention.
If our species survives the next few decades well enough for the continuing advance of science and technology then the day may come when we can transfer a brain, or maybe even just a mind, into a cloned body of the other gender or something more exotic, and they we won't have these discussions anymore.
In my mind Rob lost any right to be taken seriously when he asserted that "a trans woman IS a woman." The brazen denial of indisputable biological fact is a threshold that we should not pass.
"But the idea that if I were to say right now "I'm a woman, please use she/her pronouns," you believe I should be treated legally as if I'm a woman, is just so god damn asinine."
This is the core of the matter, right there. A man struggles into a dress, mutters "I'm a woman now," and fifteen seconds later walks into a women's bathroom and starts masturbating into the sink. Yeah we should respect "her gender identity."
You already know my thought on the idea that someone can remove the trans prefix and claim honesty or rationality.
I don't know the specifics of that bathroom situation at work but I can't imagine someone getting themself fired for beating off in the lady's room sink.
People like Rob make it hard to believe that anyone's labelled trans is even slightly rational.
"People like Rob make it hard to believe that anyone's labelled trans is even slightly rational."
I touched on this above, but yes, this is especially why I find Rob and his ilk so nfuriating. He *isn't* trans. He's just a useful idiot virtue-signalling his way to making trans people seem more unreasonable than they are.
I posted a video of a girl who had a meltdown at work and left in tears because a coworker refused to "they" her. When she yelled, "my pronouns are they! them!" I wanted to slap her face so bad.
There are real transgendered people. A few, 5000 by the stats, 50,000 being generous. They deserve support and help. The fakes deserve our scorn.
I was reading one article from a person (I forget which way the transition went) who suffered headaches and stomach pain from childhood, through the 30s, and within two weeks of transition had a whole new outlook, symptoms gone. This sounded believable. The "they" people don't.
Steve, I'm noticing that you are having an increasingly difficult time treading lightly in the face of absurdity. I understand it, but you know...
Years ago, driving from Sedona to Phoenix we stopped at Sunset Point to use the WC. When my sister came back to the vehicle, she said that as she entered the lady's room there was a very Butch lady there and she loudly said, "Oh my God!", thinking that she had entered the men's room. AWKWARD! It was clear that the other lady knew what that was about, but I have no doubt that they both thought that they both belonged in the lady's room.
I understand that it's a painful dilemma for transexuals. Before I retired there was a big stink in our main facility because the women didn't want a trans-woman in their restroom. I don't know how it was resolved. The lady's room does not have urinals, there would be no meat peeping or flashing. They had individual stalls with private thrones. I would think that since it wasn't the shower room at the gym that privacy could exist, and it could have been resolved with the trans-lady using the lady's room but I'm not a woman so it's not up to me. It's not like the trans-woman would want to risk being fired and worse for an impropriety.
While I've stood at a urinal next to a kathoey in Thailand, even though he was spectacularly passing until there we stood, he was not transexual. A transitioning, live as a woman, transexual would probably prefer a stall to an unabashed hiked skirt at a urinal.
The theme throughout what I've just written is honesty. That seems to be the impasse with Rob.
"Steve, I'm noticing that you are having an increasingly difficult time treading lightly in the face of absurdity. I understand it, but you know."
😁Well spotted! I was, for unrelated reasons, in a particularly grumpy mood when I had this conversation. I noticed that I was more antagonistic than usual as I revisitied it. But yeah, I must admit, it's also just hard being civil with people who are so outright dishonest. As you say, honesty is the impasse. And dishonesty is one of the few thngs thatmakes me angry.
People like Rob (who aren't even transgender) are making matters worse for *everybody*. Trans people, women, anybody who has even the slightest degree of intellectual honesty. Every time they trot out these ridiculous arguments, they push more people away from any semblance of support for trans people.
I honestly wish we could arrive at a world where trans women could stand at a urinal with their skirt hiked up unabashed. I very strongly suspect we won't. the dishonesty of trans people demanding to be seen as something they're not, while it doesn't usually make me angry, does make me sad.
Trans women are male. Without surgery, they have penises. That makes them different to females and therefore inelligble to be treated identically to them. It also means the violence they might face in male spaces is not a female problem. As you say, if women decide to accomodate trans women un some spaces, great. It's the demands that I find so hard to stomach.
For me it's more than just the dishonesty.
1) the extent to which people who should know better have bought into this stuff. People with graduate degrees who will state "a trans woman is a woman" even if the conversion is mere minutes old
2) the extremity. Even the most supportive people who disagree on one tiny point are indistinguishable from people who say they should all be shot. When you repeated that "a trans woman is a man" Rob immediately went back to that tired-ass "transphobic" shit.
3) the fakes. This is a ploy for a lot of people to get an extra scoop of special attention. I can understand the dysphoric being ten times what medical statistics proclaim, but not a hundred times and certainly not the thousand we are getting now. It's a fad.
4) the damage. The activists don't give a goddamn about women, about children, about sexual minorities, they are not helping anyone and they do a lot of harm. A lot of teenagers are going to live out their later lives without pieces they were born with or with permanent endocrine disorders from puberty blockers and worse. And they don't care.
Edit: I enjoy seeing your exasperation at people like Rob. I really feel like sometimes your equanimity toward plain old liars edges into role-playing and that "god damn asinine" response gave me a smile.
"𝘐 𝘦𝘯𝘫𝘰𝘺 𝘴𝘦𝘦𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘦𝘹𝘢𝘴𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘢𝘵 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘙𝘰𝘣. 𝘐 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘦𝘲𝘶𝘢𝘯𝘪𝘮𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘵𝘰𝘸𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘰𝘭𝘥 𝘭𝘪𝘢𝘳𝘴 𝘦𝘥𝘨𝘦𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘰 𝘳𝘰𝘭𝘦-𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘺𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 "𝘨𝘰𝘥 𝘥𝘢𝘮𝘯 𝘢𝘴𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘯𝘦" 𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘦 𝘨𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘮𝘦 𝘢 𝘴𝘮𝘪𝘭𝘦."
Me too, but his voice is too valuable to see it erased from Medium. I'd really hate to see that happen.
Given that he writes so often about "trans" I am astonished that Roger (he/him) hasn't sent him an email yet.
It just happened with one of my Medium favorites. This article about the phenonium is well stated.
https://medium.com/lucid-nightmare/i-finally-got-my-first-warning-after-four-years-of-writing-ba3ae33eadc7
And even after a radical orchidectomy (taking off everything) which is the treatment for testicular cancer, they still have XY chromosomes.
True, but I don’t think chromosomes are really the issue here. If the definition of a trans woman was somebody who has had gender reassignment surgery, I think I’d make the case for them to be treated as women in all cases except sport.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t see the argument for excluding trans women from women’s spaces if they’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, no longer have a penis, and are living “as women.” Their chromosomes don’t seem very important at that point.
I didn't say anything about bathrooms or other uh spaces. I was talking about biological definition and nothing more.
A man who has been through surgical transition and presents as female in every way would be out of place in a men's bathroom and by that stage there is no reason for him to be in one.
And it's never been the genuinely dysphoric I have a problem with. It's the other 99% who claim "trans" just for attention.
If our species survives the next few decades well enough for the continuing advance of science and technology then the day may come when we can transfer a brain, or maybe even just a mind, into a cloned body of the other gender or something more exotic, and they we won't have these discussions anymore.
In my mind Rob lost any right to be taken seriously when he asserted that "a trans woman IS a woman." The brazen denial of indisputable biological fact is a threshold that we should not pass.
"But the idea that if I were to say right now "I'm a woman, please use she/her pronouns," you believe I should be treated legally as if I'm a woman, is just so god damn asinine."
This is the core of the matter, right there. A man struggles into a dress, mutters "I'm a woman now," and fifteen seconds later walks into a women's bathroom and starts masturbating into the sink. Yeah we should respect "her gender identity."
Rubbish.
You already know my thought on the idea that someone can remove the trans prefix and claim honesty or rationality.
I don't know the specifics of that bathroom situation at work but I can't imagine someone getting themself fired for beating off in the lady's room sink.
People like Rob make it hard to believe that anyone's labelled trans is even slightly rational.
"People like Rob make it hard to believe that anyone's labelled trans is even slightly rational."
I touched on this above, but yes, this is especially why I find Rob and his ilk so nfuriating. He *isn't* trans. He's just a useful idiot virtue-signalling his way to making trans people seem more unreasonable than they are.
I posted a video of a girl who had a meltdown at work and left in tears because a coworker refused to "they" her. When she yelled, "my pronouns are they! them!" I wanted to slap her face so bad.
There are real transgendered people. A few, 5000 by the stats, 50,000 being generous. They deserve support and help. The fakes deserve our scorn.
I was reading one article from a person (I forget which way the transition went) who suffered headaches and stomach pain from childhood, through the 30s, and within two weeks of transition had a whole new outlook, symptoms gone. This sounded believable. The "they" people don't.