I Believe You Steve, But I Am Unbowed
A few days ago, I learned a new term: sealioning:
Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.
That’s right, evidence, civility and sincerity are now a form of trolling.
In my article, What Happens If Trans Women Aren’t Women?, I asked what is so terrible about admitting that trans women are, in fact, trans women. I asked why we can’t recognise the achievements of trans women, celebrate the athletic prowess of trans women, and respect the dignity of trans women, all while extending that same courtesy to the human beings formerly unambiguously known as women.
It’s a long one, but I think it’s valuable. We cover denialism, misinformation, and accusations of transphobia, we hit every single note in the symphony of trans discourse. But most importantly, we strike a rare one; uncertainty.
G:
This anti trans shit storm has been whipped up into a frenzy by the alt right, intended to get people's ire or fears up in the hopes it will push them to support a lost cause.
I can honestly say that, in 68 years on this earth, I know of no case of a man posing as a women, entering and assaulting women or children in vulnerable positions, in washrooms. This is a myth that bears no semblance to reality. If the genital police or other paranoid people look under my cubicle, they will be met with a firm foot in the face!. If they look over the cubicle they will find themselves pulled into a toilet, woman beware 101.
This is yet another form of bigotry, racism and intolerance for anyone different from themselves and I find it appalling! I question the ultimate goal of these supporters. Are they hoping to rid the world of another segment of society like Hitler did in WWII? They are halfway there already and that scare the hell out of me. This is not rational, it's hateful! Transgender people have been around for generations, why are they all of a sudden the enemy? Might does not make right! Ask anyone who has lived with it.
Steve QJ:
“I can honestly say that, in 68 years on this earth, I know of no case of a man posing as a women, entering and assaulting women or children in vulnerable positions, in washrooms.”
Oof...
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-woman-accused-using-sex-22260053
Let's be crystal clear here; I'm not pretending this is typical behaviour for trans people or that trans people are predators. I could find this many examples of men assulting women in five minutes and I'm not saying that all men are predators either.
But this trope that these things never happen needs to die. Yes, they do. They happen in women's prisons too.
https://www.womensliberationfront.org/news/condom-purchases-and-sexual-assault
The question is, how best to handle this? And we can't have that conversation if every attempt is met with accusations of transphobia and hatred.
Trans people are absolutely not the enemy. The problem is this baffling push to make it forbidden to acknowledge that there is such a thing as a woman. And to acknowledge that sex-based rights and protections serve a purpose.
G:
I believe you Steve, but I am unbowed. I don't think prisons belong in this conversation. By the very nature of their same sex incarcerations, rapes has been found in those populations for generations. That leaves a few cases you found, I'm assuming on the net. I would respectfully suggest a search of male sexual assaults would produce numbers in 6 digits or higher. That doesn't mean every male should be looked at with suspicion.
I guess what I am saying is that all people are created equal and should be respected as the individuals they are. I'm not talking about extreme cases. I have had numerous conversations with transgender people, and I have found common things among them. Fear of assault and ridicule, fear of being legislated illegal (it is happening), harassment, a lot are religious and have been socially rejected because of their sexual orientation, the list goes on and on! In short they are no different than the rest of us. There will always be predators and exceptions but most people are just trying to live their lives in peace.
As far as being forbidden to acknowledge women, who is behind that push? I have not experienced this myself but don't doubt it exists elsewhere.
I would like to leave you with a quote from Richard Rozen, a holocaust survivor. "I feel that this time it was us, the Jews. But the same kind of genocide can happen anywhere, anytime, to anybody. Until we finally start to put an end to racism, bigotry and intolerance, I don't see how anyone of us will ever be safe."
Steve QJ:
“I would respectfully suggest a search of male sexual assaults would produce numbers in 6 digits or higher. That doesn't mean every male should be looked at with suspicion.”
Yes, as I said in my reply, I'd have no problem digging up examples of men assaulting women. I'm not trying to claim that this is typical behaviour for trans people at all. But that's the entire point. It's not typical behaviour for men either. And men are treated with suspicion.
I'd be far more outspoken if people were pushing legislation that allowed men to enter female-only spaces even though, as a man myself, I'm well aware that the majority of men pose no threat to women.
And yes, of course prisons matter. Because while of course you're right, sexual assault happens in prison regardless, we know very well that males are dramatically more likely to commit sexual assault than females. And as one might expect, that is especially true amongst the prison population. And given that self ID laws allow male prisoners to declare themselves female, with "no hormones, surgery or time spent living as the opposite sex required" (taken from this article - https://www.wsj.com/articles/male-inmates-in-womens-prisons-11622474215) I honestly don't understand how we're having this conversation.
At a societal level, there's simply no way to treat every situation on a case-by-case basis. We need general rules. And one rule which I believe has worked pretty well for women is the there are occasions where females get spaces that are separate from males.
Trans people throw that simple classification into the air, and I'm not arguing that shouldn't be the case. I'm arguing that a more stringent standard than "I say so" is necessary to differentiate trans women from men. I'm arguing that women should be listened to in this debate rather than slandered and abused and labelled transphobic because they don't want to forfeit rights that keep them safe, without so much as a conversation.
Which brings me to the last, most frustrating part of this whole conversation. The fact that you feel the need to leave me a quote about bigotry and racism as your final thought regarding an article where I haven't written anything remotely bigoted or anti-trans, is symptomatic of how utterly insane this conversation has become. If simply acknowledging that there is such a thing as male and a female and that they're different, becomes synonymous with bigotry, I honestly don't know what we're doing anymore.
So I'd ask you to just allow for the possibility that maybe there are elements to this whole situation that you might be unaware of unless you've been paying close attention. Issues that go deeper that trying to keep trans women out of bathrooms (I've actually written a whole article arguing that trans people should be able to use the bathroom of their gender identity). I've never written a single word attacking trans people and have defended them numerous times. I'm just also interested in defending women's rights for those who might not feel as brave as you if they encountered a male body in their changing room.
G:
I think we are saying a lot of the same things, Steve. I’m sorry you found the quote I used offensive, it wasn’t intended to be. The author said, better than I could, that we are all in danger of discrimination-regardless of where we stand in the spectrum. It could happen to any segment of society. I believe that Transgender people are under attack and discriminated against right now, from several different angles. I don’t deny other segments of society are also at risk, but recent political legislation, regional and local governments seem to be honing in on Transgenders in particular. This is just wrong! Every person, regardless of race — ethnicity, religion or sexual identification, is entitled to respect and tolerance. Why does it have to be one or the other?
I am a woman and am very concerned with female issues that are unique to our sex. I do not see most males as threatening, in fact quite the opposite. Being a senior, I have found both men and women seem to drop their guard around me and treat me as a human being. It’s unfortunate that age even plays a part in this, but it does. As far as being brave, I would be lying if I said I was anything other than scared shitless, but you know what Steve, people have been fighting back, dying for causes and taking beatings for the things they believe in for centuries. I am no different!
Steve QJ:
“As far as being brave, I would be lying if I said I was anything other than scared shitless.”
This was in response to your comment that if you saw a face under your bathroom stall door you'd kick it. Some other women would too no doubt. But some would be frozen with fear or retraumatised because of sexual assault they've experienced in the past. You say you're willing to fight for a cause, I am too. My question is why are you not willing to fight for their cause too?
Yes, transgender people are the subject of intense debate right now. But if you look at it carefully, very little of that debate is based on hatred. It's based on a disagreements mainly around the medicalisation and safeguarding of children, female-only spaces, and women in sport. Some of it has become mean and toxic.No doubt. But let’s be super clear here, that meanness and toxicity is coming from the trans community too. You only need to look at what’s happened to people like JK Rowling to see that.
I think the question of how and whether to redefine the world “woman,” with all the safety and legal implications that carries, is a perfectly reasonable area for debate that has nothing to do with hating or attacking trans people. Trans people represent a dramatic shift in the way we safeguard women and women's spaces. Do you think there shouldn't be debate and legislation around how to make those changes?
I just don't understand how so many people have come to the conclusion that anydiscussion about these issues is inherently hateful. What am I missing here? What have I said that makes you think I'm being discriminatory towards trans people?
G:
“My question is why are you not willing to fight for their cause too?”
Charging, and convicting parents of child abuse for supporting their LGBTQ children is based on fear, bigotry and hatred. LGBTQ's are being denied the right to adopt children in many states. Gay book burning, banning is repugnant and prevalent in many state schools .
"not based on hatred"
Wow, what do you think it is based on? How do you think the child who drew the transgender flag felt, when educators took it down from the classroom and referred to it as a Nazi picture?
I suggest you read a few the many articles written by James Finn, Kitty Whitmore, Emma Stone, Logan and many more found on Medium. They all write fact based articles about fear mongering, bigotry, bias, hysteria and transgender people.
I actively support woman's rights to abortion, pay disparity, safety, etc. and will continue to do so, despite the laws requiring the public to spy and report any medical people who provide an abortion services to women or Dr.s medically involved in the treatment of dysphoria in children. Let's be clear Steve, no children are being given gender reassignment surgerys until they are 18 years or older.
I believe we are all born equal. LGBTQ people were born with their sexual identification- whether it matches their birth genitalia or not - and are entitled to the same equality laws as everyone else. This is not a lifestyle anyone chooses, it is who they are.
Supporting transgender and advocating tolerance for the difference between us, does not take anything away from women or children. We can chew gum and walk at the same time!
Steve QJ:
I can do exactly this to argue, as some do, that white people are more likely to be victims of racism than black people. There are terrible and worrying things happening in schools from every direction. But I didn't say that nobody hates trans people, clearly (and sadly) that's not true, I said that most of the debate around trans people isn't based on hatred.
The fact that there are undeniably hateful people out there doesn't make every discussion of these issues hateful.
I've read so many articles on trans issues over the past year that my feed on Medium quite literally only recommends trans articles to me. I'm familiar with all of those writers and more (though I'd contest the claim that they they all write fact based articles).
My point is, that all of them simply assert that any pushback on trans issues is based on hatred. They insist upon it in fact. They don't talk about any facts that might lead people to think a little more carefully about these issues. And they make absolutely no effort to represent people's positions clearly or honestly. Nor do much of the press. I saw that you highlighted JK Rowling's name from my last reply. So I'll ask, as I so often do; have you read her essay? (https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/)
Bear in mind that Rowling has not only be demonised for writing this, to an extent I don't think I can remember any other single person being demonised, but she's been described as hateful by countless people for an essay that I can't find a single word of hatred in. Of course, this is because, most of the people criticising her have never read what she wrote.
You might reasonably disagree with her, but anybody who describes her as hateful for what she's written is fundamentally dishonest. As is much of this discourse. And that's why, for example, you seem to be unaware that children under 18 are being given gender reassignment surgeries.
Here's a story about a sixteen year old who had a double mastectomy five months after first questioning her gender
Here's a thirteen year old girl, fresh from a double mastectomy. And just in case I'm accused of cherry-picking, here's an article clarifying that although genital surgery isn't available until after 18, double mastectomies and hormone therapies are available much earlier (https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-nightly/2022/03/25/the-transgender-care-that-states-are-banning-explained-00020580).
I believe we are all born equal too. I believe that very strongly. But I also believe that this latest push to medicalise children, this time in such a way that they'll be on that path for the rest of their lives, should be treated with care. Not banned, not politicised, not used as a cudgel to beat trans people with, treated with great care. There are many ways in which this isn't happening.
I believe that trans people should be able to compete in sport, but I don't believe we should ignore the undeniable advantages that male bodies have over female bodies.
I believe that we should aim for inclusion, but I also believe that we should consider the needs and comfort of women and the realities of the sex-based rights that women spent long decades fighting to win.
As you say, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't understand why we're acting as if we can't care about trans people and also think carefully about the above issues.
G:
My understanding is that 'puberty blockers' (probably hormone based) are used to make it easier to transition, but they are completely reversable. I have to assume that the Drs. treating dysphoric children, give little credence to the parents wishes, but base their decisions on the child, with the understanding their wishes may change over time. I am appalled and question the honesy of any medical personell who would perform masectomies or other permanent changes on children. We agree completely on that Steve and it needs to be adressed. Having said that, I support any parent who tries to do their best for their children, whether that includes supporting their children's choices or differences or not.
JK Rowlings has little effect on me, one way or the other. I honestly have never read any of her books. What I have read were her comments and likes on social media. Her responses were unplugged and most appear to be phobic. Either way, she does not affect my thinking at all.
Physical assaults on LGBTQ people is growing at an alarming rate and is based on hatred. Some even resulted in murder and I find them to be abhorent and dispicable. Everyone, without exception, is entitled to their beliefs, but and its a huge but, they are not entitled to force their beliefs on to others, under any circumstances, even parents.
I do belong to a visible minority and I have experienced the dark side of racism and bigotry! I try not to let it color my own thinking or my understanding of human nature. I look white, at first glance, but all of my siblings do not. Some might think I was the lucky one, but that is not true. It just meant that people made assumptions about me and a lot of their statements were raw rasism. Just a note, I have three children, only one of them looks Meti. Of their children, two look Meti. A lot of people can't wrap their head around that but it is simple genetics.
As far as women's issues, you already know that I support them. Thank you for your incites, I do appreciate learning from anyone else, whether I agree or not.
“My understanding is that 'puberty blockers' (probably hormone based) are used to make it easier to transition, but they are completely reversable.”
Did you catch that? No, not the often repeated (and untrue) claim that puberty blockers are completely reversible, the very first admission of uncertainty. “My understanding is that…”
The toxicity generated by trans discourse runs on a heady mixture of ignorance and emotion. From both sides of the issue. And from the “trans ally” side, the iron-clad certainty that anybody who doesn’t ignore the many obvious and well-documented problems with abolishing female spaces and medicalising children must hate trans people.
My goal, in most of these conversations, is just to shake that certainty a little. To introduce the possibility that “the other side” might not all be Nazis. Then the facts can speak for themselves.
Steve QJ:
My understanding is that 'puberty blockers' (probably hormone based) are used to make it easier to transition, but they are completely reversable.
Yeah, again, this is what you'll be led to believe if you only read certain voices on the issue, but it is, at best only party true. Puberty blockers are safe in the short term, as used to delay puberty in kids who start very early. But in the longer term, as with trans kids who are sometimes on them for many years (onset of puberty until hormone therapy begins), the picture is more complicated.
First, there is very little research on the long-term effects of puberty blockers (because they're not designed to be taken long term), but what is known suggests that they have negative effects on future fertility, bone health, and brain development (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/well/family/what-are-puberty-blockers.html). They also affect sexual development in kids (as you'd expect, a penis won't grow normally in a child on puberty blockers) which can actually have a negative effect on future gender reassignment surgery (https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/11/743). Also, some trans children are left without normal sexual function (https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/women-who-stray/202111/does-affirmative-treatment-impair-sexual-response-in-trans-youth) as this is also part of the pubertal process.
The question of whether puberty blockers actually help trans kids or lower suicide risk is also disputed.
Another fact that I don't even think is in dispute, is that somewhere north of 80% (some studies say as high as 95% (http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html)) of trans identifying kids will become cisgendered gay or lesbian adults without gender dysphoria if they are allowed to develop without being put on a medical pathway. And this matters because they get to avoid all the health implications of surgeries and a lifetime on cross-sex hormones.
We're completely in agreement as far as our opposition to attacks on the LGBT community. And none of this is to argue against providing gender-affirming care. The point is, there's very reasonable grounds to want to discuss these issues carefully that have nothing to do with transphobia. But there's enormous pressure to simply not talk about the things I've raised here. And those of us who do are routinely accused of being anti-trans when nothing could be further from the truth.
Thanks for the discussion. I hope some of it has been useful.
I’m convinced that one of the key reasons this conversation has become so divisive is that most people don’t really know what’s going on, or haven’t thought through the implications of what they do know is going on.
The trans “lobby” (for want of a better term) has been incredibly effective at convincing liberals that anybody who doesn't blindly repeat the orthodoxy is motivated by hatred. I regularly speak to people who I know to be smart and reasonable, who just cannot engage with this topic thoughtfully.
That’s why evidence, sincerity and civility are so important. And why the people who don’t have the truth on their side so rarely show any of them.
I have been simply astonished at the extent to which lies coming from the "trans" cult are accepted by people who should know better. Several times I have heard from incredulous people that reassignment surgery has never been performed on anyone under 18, and it is universally accepted that puberty blockers never do lasting harm
We are witnessing a phenomenon of incredulity on the level of Trump's Big Lie.
With very few exceptions the "trans" activists maintain a state of maximal outrage and are as quick to attack allies as enemies. Reading from afar it is plain to me that they are not considerate of women or even other "trans" people, only in swelling their numbers by any means necessary.
The fact that "trans" is, unlike being gay, a phase that many go through and emerge from, but many emerge after having their bodies mutilated or their pubescent development badly affectefd.
You held your side up well, but I got so sick of G's responses that I had to stop reading halfway through. The rape and death threats are only going one direction - from trans activists to women. I don't see trans people as "under widespread threat." I see the overprivileging of trans at the expense of all other groups on the left as finally being dialed back a bit.